5D3 Auto ISO

[bdunbar79]

neuro & bdunbar, I'm talking specifically about the Auto ISO shutter speed limit, which is new, at least to the 1D X, and was limited to 1/250s, as the 5DIII and presumably other new bodies are:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/standard_display/eos_1dx_afae_improve

Yes, I know. I can set the power for my 600EX-RT in the camera menus or on the flash itself. Point being, there's more than one way to achieve a minimum shutter speed setting, and the 'normal' 1-series way has never been limited. Conversely, only on the 1-series can you use Tv mode and set a maximum aperture narrower than wide open to give sufficient DoF.

I'm not getting it I guess. Are we talking about setting min shutter speed in the custom functions while in auto ISO? Because using auto ISO I was able to set any shutter speed I wanted. If it's the custom function issue, I don't really view that as a limitation personally.

Good point by neuro. I used to shoot basketball before the latest firmware with auto ISO in M mode, with a 70-200 f/2.8L II IS lens. To do EC, I would set max aperture to f/1.0, and min to f/2.8. This "trapped" the lens at f/2.8 and so since I was in Tv mode, could go ahead and do the EC.

 

[Loswr]

I'm not getting it I guess. Are we talking about setting min shutter speed in the custom functions while in auto ISO? Because using auto ISO I was able to set any shutter speed I wanted. If it's the custom function issue, I don't really view that as a limitation personally.

There's a specific setting called 'min shutter speed in Av mode', I believe it's in one of the first few menu screens, the one where you set the range for Auto ISO. Normally, in Av mode with Auto ISO, as light levels decrease the camera will drop the shutter speed to ~1/FL (1/1.6xFL for APS-C) before it starts raising the ISO. The problem comes when you have a wide lens – the shutter speed drops slow enough (e.g. 1/30 s at the wide end of a 24-xx zoom) that when shooting people, subject motion blur becomes an issue. I believe the original purpose of the setting was to allow a 'floor' for shutter speed in Av to prevent blur from involuntary subject motion. Personally, I use 1/125 s as a minimum when people are the subject. A speed of 1/250 s should be plenty fast for that.

It seems people shooting intentionally moving subjects (sports, etc.) using Av mode to control DoF wanted faster minimum speeds to stop action. Therefore, the new firmware for the 1D X expanded the setting to the max shutter speed of 1/8000 s. So far, only the 1D X has the modified setting, which as we know, is just a second way to skin the cat on a 1-series body. However, it would be a nice feature on non-1-series bodies where full ranges can't be specified. Honestly, I expect Canon will add the expanded to the 5DIII in a future firmware update, and newer bodies (7DII) will have it at launch. As a reminder, the 'normal' min shutter in Av setting (capped at 1/250 s) was added to the 7D with the v2 firmware, but was on some newer bodies before the 7D got it.

 

[Marsu42]

Honestly, I expect Canon will add the expanded to the 5DIII in a future firmware update, and newer bodies (7DII) will have it at launch. As a reminder, the 'normal' min shutter in Av setting (capped at 1/250 s) was added to the 7D with the v2 firmware, but was on some newer bodies before the 7D got it.

I'll bookmark this post and quote it if the occasion arises :-> ... imho crippling the max. min shutter speed in Av is just a too good and cheap way for Canon to upsell people, they won't let it be until forced at gunpoint. The ridiculous value of 1/250s (for action shots!) down to 1" (who needs that?) shows that Canon doesn't care about what non-1d people think here. My guess for the 7d: 1/500s

 

[polarhannes]

I'd really like to try the auto_iso module, but I was unable to find a binary for the latest 5DIII firmware. The ML forum thread has some binaries, but only for the old 5D firmware.
Marsu, where can we download it? I won't complain and understand that the devs and you are not responsible for any damage this might cause

 

[Marsu42]

Marsu, where can we download it? I won't complain and understand that the devs and you are not responsible for any damage this might cause

You cannot just use the module, it uses some ML core patches that aren't in the nightlies (yet). For the time being, you need to use the old/stable ML v2.3 for this feature.

Here's the thread for the new module with some older 5d3 binaries, alas, I don't have time to finish it atm, gotta make a living in the real world :-\ ... but if enough interested people show up in the thread, the ML devs might be more sympathetic to merging it once I push it: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8688.0

 

[mackguyver]

I'm not getting it I guess. Are we talking about setting min shutter speed in the custom functions while in auto ISO? Because using auto ISO I was able to set any shutter speed I wanted. If it's the custom function issue, I don't really view that as a limitation personally.

There's a specific setting called 'min shutter speed in Av mode', I believe it's in one of the first few menu screens, the one where you set the range for Auto ISO. Normally, in Av mode with Auto ISO, as light levels decrease the camera will drop the shutter speed to ~1/FL (1/1.6xFL for APS-C) before it starts raising the ISO. The problem comes when you have a wide lens – the shutter speed drops slow enough (e.g. 1/30 s at the wide end of a 24-xx zoom) that when shooting people, subject motion blur becomes an issue. I believe the original purpose of the setting was to allow a 'floor' for shutter speed in Av to prevent blur from involuntary subject motion. Personally, I use 1/125 s as a minimum when people are the subject. A speed of 1/250 s should be plenty fast for that.

It seems people shooting intentionally moving subjects (sports, etc.) using Av mode to control DoF wanted faster minimum speeds to stop action. Therefore, the new firmware for the 1D X expanded the setting to the max shutter speed of 1/8000 s. So far, only the 1D X has the modified setting, which as we know, is just a second way to skin the cat on a 1-series body. However, it would be a nice feature on non-1-series bodies where full ranges can't be specified. Honestly, I expect Canon will add the expanded to the 5DIII in a future firmware update, and newer bodies (7DII) will have it at launch. As a reminder, the 'normal' min shutter in Av setting (capped at 1/250 s) was added to the 7D with the v2 firmware, but was on some newer bodies before the 7D got it.

Good explanation, Neuro, and the 1D X definitely has many ways to do the same thing, especially with exposure compensation in Manual mode. Before that, in theory, the easiest way to shoot action was to use Av mode with Auto ISO to keep the lens where you wanted it and still have access to exposure compensation. I say in theory because you couldn't set Auto ISO to go beyond 1/250s which is way to slow, but with a long lens the shutter speed would go up to 1/focal length which worked well for most wildlife, but not sports. I use M mode for all of my action shooting now that I have exposure compensation. Hopefully we'll see this in the next 5DIII update as well

 

[Loswr]

Honestly, I expect Canon will add the expanded to the 5DIII in a future firmware update, and newer bodies (7DII) will have it at launch. As a reminder, the 'normal' min shutter in Av setting (capped at 1/250 s) was added to the 7D with the v2 firmware, but was on some newer bodies before the 7D got it.

I'll bookmark this post and quote it if the occasion arises :-> ... imho crippling the max. min shutter speed in Av is just a too good and cheap way for Canon to upsell people, they won't let it be until forced at gunpoint. The ridiculous value of 1/250s (for action shots!) down to 1" (who needs that?) shows that Canon doesn't care about what non-1d people think here. My guess for the 7d: 1/500s

I could certainly be wrong…and you're more than welcome to throw it in my face if I am!

I really just think it's a use case Canon didn't foresee, and decided to add post hoc because of customer feedback. Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode. Since the setting under discussion applies only to Av mode, it's quite logical Canon did not envision its use for shooting action.

 

[Marsu42]

Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode.

I never quite understood this, starting with my first EOS (620) I was annoyed that in pure Tv w/o any scene program gimmicks, the camera goes to wide open asap - *shudder* think 50/1.8. This makes tracking difficult and might result in a too thin dof for the scene. Av with min. shutter speed fixes this problem.

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

 

[bdunbar79]

Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode.

I never quite understood this, starting with my first EOS (620) I was annoyed that in pure Tv w/o any scene program gimmicks, the camera goes to wide open asap - *shudder* think 50/1.8. This makes tracking difficult and might result in a too thin dof for the scene. Av with min. shutter speed fixes this problem.

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

And Manual fixes all of that...

 

[Loswr]

Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode.

I never quite understood this, starting with my first EOS (620) I was annoyed that in pure Tv w/o any scene program gimmicks, the camera goes to wide open asap - *shudder* think 50/1.8. This makes tracking difficult and might result in a too thin dof for the scene. Av with min. shutter speed fixes this problem.

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

And Manual fixes all of that...

Really? I read it, but it wasn't obvious. To what page number are you referring?

;D

 

[bdunbar79]

Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode.

I never quite understood this, starting with my first EOS (620) I was annoyed that in pure Tv w/o any scene program gimmicks, the camera goes to wide open asap - *shudder* think 50/1.8. This makes tracking difficult and might result in a too thin dof for the scene. Av with min. shutter speed fixes this problem.

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

And Manual fixes all of that...

Really? I read it, but it wasn't obvious. To what page number are you referring?

;D

LOL!

 

[rpt]

Conventional wisdom is that you use Tv mode for action shooting; 'sports mode' (the runner on the mode dial of so-equipped cameras) is based on Tv mode.

I never quite understood this, starting with my first EOS (620) I was annoyed that in pure Tv w/o any scene program gimmicks, the camera goes to wide open asap - *shudder* think 50/1.8. This makes tracking difficult and might result in a too thin dof for the scene. Av with min. shutter speed fixes this problem.

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

And Manual fixes all of that...

Really? I read it, but it wasn't obvious. To what page number are you referring?

;D

LOL!

Lol! It took a few seconds but the penny finally dropped ;D

 

[Marsu42]

And Manual fixes all of that...

Well, I guess the world of photography is divided into two kinds of people - those who can do all stuff in full M and actually wouldn't need all this flashy computer support and simple /me who has absolutely no clue at all how to do this in changing light :-o ... when shooting wildlife like I do or "walkaround shoot in every direction" every exposure is different than the other, that's why I like to rely on Av,Tv and Auto-ISO.

 

[philmoz]

With Magic Lantern, I actually use Tv mode for "walkaround tourist/landscape" as a "as deep dof as possible" mode: Set the shutter time you think is appropriate, rest assured the dof will not drop below a limit you've set, then let the camera choose an even deeper dof if good light allows it.

Can you explain how you set up ML to do this please - I've been through all the menu options and searched the forum; but I can't figure it out.

Thanks,
Phil.

 

[bdunbar79]

And Manual fixes all of that...

Well, I guess the world of photography is divided into two kinds of people - those who can do all stuff in full M and actually wouldn't need all this flashy computer support and simple /me who has absolutely no clue at all how to do this in changing light :-o ... when shooting wildlife like I do or "walkaround shoot in every direction" every exposure is different than the other, that's why I like to rely on Av,Tv and Auto-ISO.

I was just kidding! I use auto ISO with EC.

 

[Marsu42]

I was just kidding! I use auto ISO with EC.

Ok, thanks for clarifying ... believe it or not, there are really people around who try to tell you semi-auto (be it av,tv or auto iso) is just for people who are not able to shoot in full m, for any possible situation that is

 

[scyrene]

And Manual fixes all of that...

Well, I guess the world of photography is divided into two kinds of people - those who can do all stuff in full M and actually wouldn't need all this flashy computer support and simple /me who has absolutely no clue at all how to do this in changing light :-o ... when shooting wildlife like I do or "walkaround shoot in every direction" every exposure is different than the other, that's why I like to rely on Av,Tv and Auto-ISO.

I feel the opposite - I wish I'd learned how to use those other modes. I only ever use manual because I don't really understand the other settings, and I feel I must be missing out. I usually remember/notice to change the settings as conditions change, but not always, so I must miss some shots

(But I fear I'm already too set in my ways to branch out in that regard...)

 

[Skirball]

I was just kidding! I use auto ISO with EC.

Ok, thanks for clarifying ... believe it or not, there are really people around who try to tell you semi-auto (be it av,tv or auto iso) is just for people who are not able to shoot in full m, for any possible situation that is

There's plenty of them on here. Every time the topic comes up of exposure compensation for Auto ISO in manual there's usually at least one person who screams about it not really being full manual. I've never heard anyone complain about it in real life, but on the internet what shooting mode you use and the purity in which you do it is of the utmost importance.

 

[bdunbar79]

I was just kidding! I use auto ISO with EC.

Ok, thanks for clarifying ... believe it or not, there are really people around who try to tell you semi-auto (be it av,tv or auto iso) is just for people who are not able to shoot in full m, for any possible situation that is

There's plenty of them on here. Every time the topic comes up of exposure compensation for Auto ISO in manual there's usually at least one person who screams about it not really being full manual. I've never heard anyone complain about it in real life, but on the internet what shooting mode you use and the purity in which you do it is of the utmost importance.

I've been criticized many times for using Tv, Av, auto ISO, and worse yet, for even having a camera that can fire 12 fps because "I need to learn more skill and learn to time the shot."

I agree, there must be some reward or stipulation out there about full M mode. Like, if I get the shot and the other guy next to me just missed it slightly, they'll use his shot because he shot in full M mode and I didn't.

 

[mackguyver]

I've been criticized many times for using Tv, Av, auto ISO, and worse yet, for even having a camera that can fire 12 fps because "I need to learn more skill and learn to time the shot."

From now on, you can simply tell them to shut and buy a Nikon Df ;D

For me, aperture control is most important, so I always use Av or M mode. I don't like Tv or P mode as they take the DOF control out of my hands and change my vision for me, which is unacceptable. I use Av mode for all but the most extreme lighting situations for still subjects and Manual mode for anything moving and studio work. High FPS can be used to cover sloppy work, but some subjects require it. I actually find it annoying to have to comb through dozens of frames in the edit, but for fast moving subjects, pans, or critical shots when you can't miss, high FPS is necessary.