5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)

[GuyF]

Just a quick question on behalf of a work colleague. I should say I'm very sceptical, but anyway.....

He uses a 5D3 and 70-200mm f2.8 mk2 to shoot football matches. Normally he would keep things at f2.8 (thanks to the near-constant Scottish gloom) and let the camera do the rest. Whilst pretty happy with those results, for whatever reason decided to go fully manual and constantly juggle aperture and shutter speed to suit. Auto ISO is not used. He claims (RAW) exposures need next to no tweaking regarding over/under exposure. Now here's the thing, he says images appear sharper as a result of using manual exposure compared to Av priority.

I said I doubted things being sharper unless he's just using an "on average" faster shutter speed thus reducing any shake. He's been taking football pics for years and should know the minimum shutter speed he can get away with and seems quite convinced of the improvement.

So, sharper images when using manual exposure - is he just fooling himself? The obvious thing is for him to set up a test chart and do an Av priority shot compared to a manual exposure one. Personally, I ain't buying it.

Any thoughts?

 

[Loswr]

He's not telling you the whole story. You can get sharper RAW images with manual exposure, but only if you take the shots by pressing the shutter release on the battery grip instead of the body, while standing on your left foot, on Saturdays within three days of a full moon.

 

[GuyF]

Yeah Neuro, kinda what I was thinking. Said I'd ask for a consensus. I feel more people will post similar things to yourself. Ah well......

 

[Loswr]

On a serious note, the 70-200/2.8L IS II gets a bit sharper when stopped down (that's true for most lenses, although the 70-200 II doesn't improve all that much since it's excellent right from max aperture). Stopping down also reduces the vignetting (the 70-200 II has a fair bit wide open, and a standard UV/clear filter mount adds to vignetting, which is unusual for a tele lens).

So, if he's using somewhat narrower apertures when setting exposure manually vs. Av mode fixed at f/2.8, there would be a bit more sharpness from that, and assuming some sort of lens profile is being applied to correct for vignetting in the RAW images, the increased exposure will increase noise at the edges of the frame, so some RAW converters also apply a bit of NR in those regions, which can cost a bit of sharpness.

 

[mackguyver]

There's another possible explanation as well - have him compare his shutter speeds. If he's using setting a low(er) ISO or using Auto ISO and in Av mode, he's probably getting lower shutter speeds and with a subject like football, there's definitely a difference between motion blur at 1/500s and 1/1000s or higher, which I presume he used in M mode. With most sports, 1/1000s is the minimum you want to use to freeze subject motion. The difference in motion blur may not be huge depending the difference in shutter speeds, but it's enough to make one photo look soft and the other sharp.

 

[flowers]

There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

 

[Loswr]

There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

Agree about using Tv as the preferred autoexposure mode. How much football have you shot? I've shot many games, and it's pretty common for part of the field to be in the shadow of the stands/bleachers. The action moves from sun to shade and back constantly, and autoexposure can be very helpful in that scenario (whether Tv mode or manual mode with Auto ISO). FWIW, much of my sports shooting was in the film days, when autoexposure was brand new, autofocus was way over my budget, and changing ISO on the fly was a pipe dream.

As for, "Auto exposure overexposes," that shouldn't normally be the case. If your camera consistently overexposes in the autoexposure modes, perhaps it needs to be serviced.

 

[Sporgon]

There is no reason to use Av mode for anything.

Ouch !

 

[Viggo]

There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

And try to image just how incredibly useful this is at a concert with mental flashing lights.

"No reason to use Av" whatever...

 

[raptor3x]

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update. Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

 

[Viggo]

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update. Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

No, 1dx always had this function, the 1d4 also has this. "Set Shutterspeed range"

*edit* the 1d3 also has this function.

 

[mackguyver]

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update. Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

1/250s, but yes, for no apparent reason other than to annoy anyone needing faster shutter speeds

 

[Loswr]

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update. Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

Nope. You're correct in terms of the 'min shutter speed in Av mode' setting (which goes up to 1/250 s before the 1D X firmware v2). However, the ability to restrict the range for shutter speed and aperture (i.e., set a min and max) have long been a 1-series feature. Minimum can be set one stop short of the max possible, and vice versa.

In Tv mode, it's nice when shooting a fast lens to be able to set a max aperture to maintain sufficient DoF, for example.

 

[Dick]

In Tv mode, it's nice when shooting a fast lens to be able to set a max aperture to maintain sufficient DoF, for example.

Then again, M mode with exposure compensation would more or less make the other modes pointless. Oh... 1DX has that too.

 

[j1jenkins]

I have the exact same rig and while I can't speak for the Scottish gloom he mentions, I can speak for Av. I use AV quite a bit when shooting sports like baseball. I set the aperture to 3.5 and let the camera work the timing value. That aperture at 20' gives a nice sharp pic with great bokeh. For my own uses, it's great. Occasionally there is a pause while the body determines a value, but that might happen 1-2times in 1500 shots. I would love to see Canon push some of the 1D features mentioned above down to the 5D....but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Viggo]

In Tv mode, it's nice when shooting a fast lens to be able to set a max aperture to maintain sufficient DoF, for example.

Then again, M mode with exposure compensation would more or less make the other modes pointless. Oh... 1DX has that too.

You really think you can adjust with exposure comp between frames at 12 fps of a dude running in and out of the shadows or between flickering lights at a concert or the two combined?

I worry about comp/framing, AF , not exposure in a burst or when tracking a subject.

 

[flowers]

There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

Agree about using Tv as the preferred autoexposure mode. How much football have you shot? I've shot many games, and it's pretty common for part of the field to be in the shadow of the stands/bleachers. The action moves from sun to shade and back constantly, and autoexposure can be very helpful in that scenario (whether Tv mode or manual mode with Auto ISO). FWIW, much of my sports shooting was in the film days, when autoexposure was brand new, autofocus was way over my budget, and changing ISO on the fly was a pipe dream.

As for, "Auto exposure overexposes," that shouldn't normally be the case. If your camera consistently overexposes in the autoexposure modes, perhaps it needs to be serviced.

I don't shoot sports so I happily give the floor to those who do, I just commented based on common sense applied to sports. Of course experience trumps my common sense. I have never used the Auto mode in my camera so I don't know if it overexposes or not. I've used the Av and Tv mode (which are Auto mode with a twist) a few times and based on that I'd say that the camera very rarely (if ever) gets it right out of the box and figuring out if you need + or - EC in each situation would probably be no less trouble than setting the exposure manually. I also don't shoot JPG unless someone is holding a gun to my head so someone being in a shadow is no problem if it's within the RAW latitude. Of course pushing is less desirable than pulling so setting the exposure correctly for the necessary latitude both ways is important. Auto ISO in manual mode is useful if your camera supports it properly. When it comes to concerts it depends on whether I'm shooting video or taking photos. I don't think anyone would even dare think of changing exposure during video, and during photos it's a consideration to itself if you want to chuck the photos in the shadows, fix them by dodging or curves or if you really want to get photos where the shadows are correctly exposed and the stage lights are either pure white or overexposed by so much they look like pastels (with a clipped red channel). The latter isn't necessarily the best option but a lot depends on whether the subject is wearing light or dark clothes. If the subject is wearing black then it's probably best to expose for the clothing and let the lights blow. If you shoot JPGs in challenging lighting situations like concerts I don't know what to say. If you have or rent a 1-D X you have nothing to worry about, my comment was more general and not dependent on the camera model. The minimum shutter speed up to 1/8000 feature is great. It's always best to nail the exposure exactly for most latitude (and less post processing) but it's not always worth it to give up control of the other variables because that can lead to missed shots just as well. The ability to set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250 is not much to brag about when shooting sports by the way, if you have the feature you should be able to set it a lot higher, otherwise it's little more than a gimmick and only marginally useful.

 

[Loswr]

I have never used the Auto mode in my camera so I don't know if it overexposes or not. I've used the Av and Tv mode (which are Auto mode with a twist) a few times and based on that I'd say that the camera very rarely (if ever) gets it right out of the box and figuring out if you need + or - EC in each situation would probably be no less trouble than setting the exposure manually.

For Av, Tv and M+Auto ISO, I'd call all of them autoexposure modes - you're selecting one or two of the three exposure parameters, and the camera is adjusting the other(s) to give the metered exposure (modified by any applied EC).

I guess we have different ideas/experiences of the accuracy of the camera's metering. I have found that in most situations, the camera does a pretty good job - that's definitely model-specific, though. The T1i and 5DII didn't do as well as the 7D, and the 1D X is quite accurate (plus, with the 1-series you can apply AE Microadjustment to tweak the metered exposure to your liking, up to a full stop in 1/8-stop increments).

I also don't shoot JPG unless someone is holding a gun to my head so someone being in a shadow is no problem if it's within the RAW latitude.

Depends on the shadows. Sometimes they're pretty extreme, e.g. (not my image):

I don't shoot jpg, but I believe it's not uncommon for deadline-driven sports photographers.

If you have or rent a 1-D X you have nothing to worry about, my comment was more general and not dependent on the camera model. The minimum shutter speed up to 1/8000 feature is great. It's always best to nail the exposure exactly for most latitude (and less post processing) but it's not always worth it to give up control of the other variables because that can lead to missed shots just as well.

Sometimes it helps to concentrate more on composition and timing than on exposure variables, to the extent that you can rely on the camera to handle those details. In many situations, a blown highlight or blocked shadow is preferable to missing the peak of action or cutting an athelete's limb out of the frame.

The ability to set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250 is not much to brag about when shooting sports by the way, if you have the feature you should be able to set it a lot higher, otherwise it's little more than a gimmick and only marginally useful.

Agreed, and since they've added the feature to the 1D X (even though it didn't really need it, since it was possible with another setting), I hope that capability trickles down the line.

I really don't think Canon had sports/action in mind for that feature. Rather, the intent of a minimum shutter speed in Av mode was to compensate for the fact that in an autoexposure mode, the camera applies the 1/FL 'rule' (or 1/1.6xFL for APS-C). So for example, zooming a 24-xx lens to the wide end on FF, in Av mode the shutter speed will drop to 1/25 s (and only then will the camera raise ISO, if that's set to Auto) - that means even 'still' people will have some subject motion blur. The min shutter in Av setting compensates for that, and 1/250 s is sufficient to stop motion blur for people moving 'normally'. At least that's what I think Canon was thinking...

 

[flowers]

For Av, Tv and M+Auto ISO, I'd call all of them autoexposure modes - you're selecting one or two of the three exposure parameters, and the camera is adjusting the other(s) to give the metered exposure (modified by any applied EC).

It makes sense to call them all autoexposure modes, you're right.

I guess we have different ideas/experiences of the accuracy of the camera's metering. I have found that in most situations, the camera does a pretty good job - that's definitely model-specific, though. The T1i and 5DII didn't do as well as the 7D, and the 1D X is quite accurate (plus, with the 1-series you can apply AE Microadjustment to tweak the metered exposure to your liking, up to a full stop in 1/8-stop increments).

That model specificity is what makes it something I'd rather not get used to unless for some reason I have to.

I also don't shoot JPG unless someone is holding a gun to my head so someone being in a shadow is no problem if it's within the RAW latitude.

Depends on the shadows. Sometimes they're pretty extreme, e.g. (not my image):

Actually, after I wrote that I realized that my mind was too much on nice diffuse shadows created by sunlight filtered through tree branches (conveniently soft and light enough) and I started thinking about some more extreme shadows. I admit that image you posted puts it into perspective, I've never seen that in real life (the type of shadow yes, but not the stadium or the game) so it didn't occur to me.

I don't shoot jpg, but I believe it's not uncommon for deadline-driven sports photographers.

In that case it's understandable, they probably want to print the photos as soon as possible.

If you have or rent a 1-D X you have nothing to worry about, my comment was more general and not dependent on the camera model. The minimum shutter speed up to 1/8000 feature is great. It's always best to nail the exposure exactly for most latitude (and less post processing) but it's not always worth it to give up control of the other variables because that can lead to missed shots just as well.

Sometimes it helps to concentrate more on composition and timing than on exposure variables, to the extent that you can rely on the camera to handle those details. In many situations, a blown highlight or blocked shadow is preferable to missing the peak of action or cutting an athelete's limb out of the frame.

Oh, you're right. I think the problem is that I don't really shoot sports so I might be applying things to sports shooting that aren't applicable.

The ability to set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250 is not much to brag about when shooting sports by the way, if you have the feature you should be able to set it a lot higher, otherwise it's little more than a gimmick and only marginally useful.

Agreed, and since they've added the feature to the 1D X (even though it didn't really need it, since it was possible with another setting), I hope that capability trickles down the line.

I really don't think Canon had sports/action in mind for that feature. Rather, the intent of a minimum shutter speed in Av mode was to compensate for the fact that in an autoexposure mode, the camera applies the 1/FL 'rule' (or 1/1.6xFL for APS-C). So for example, zooming a 24-xx lens to the wide end on FF, in Av mode the shutter speed will drop to 1/25 s (and only then will the camera raise ISO, if that's set to Auto) - that means even 'still' people will have some subject motion blur. The min shutter in Av setting compensates for that, and 1/250 s is sufficient to stop motion blur for people moving 'normally'. At least that's what I think Canon was thinking...

You're probably right. Personally I'd prefer it if it didn't use the 1/fl rule exactly but gave it a bigger margin to begin with, assuming some movement rather than using the smallest possible value.

 

[sanj]

He's not telling you the whole story. You can get sharper RAW images with manual exposure, but only if you take the shots by pressing the shutter release on the battery grip instead of the body, while standing on your left foot, on Saturdays within three days of a full moon.

hahahahahahahahahahaha. Neuro! Too funny.