70D and Dxomark....

[starship]

Re: 70D and Dxomark.... canon´s sensor not even on par with nikon´s D7000

I had been hopeful. but it looks like, that canons 70d sensor isn´t worth to be my next investment.

the new live view autofocus is pretty innovative. I appreciate, that we get back AF microadjustment und an updated AF-system.

but i´m sorry to say. the sensor-quality isn´t (at least) on par with the sony sensor of a nikon D7000. even more lagging behind nikon´s D7100. 2ev less dynamic range and 1/3ev in the high-iso area. thats remarkable, when you consider, that the sony sensor of the D7000 has been released back in 2010.

well, all in all. I won´t buy the 70d.
maybe a 7d mk2 will have a competitive sensor.

And you didn't buy a Nikon because...

well, because I have tons of canon related stuff.

but a few weeks ago I DID recommend a friend of mine to buy nikon instead of canon. that´s what i had to do. nikon has been simply far better in sensor-quality over the last years. i hope this will change.

 

[garyknrd]

I fight with DR daily shooting in the jungle here. Older I want a crop camera with better spec's. I don't want to carry around a 600-800 mm lens just so I can use a FF. Physically not possible for me at this point. With the 1D IV it puts me on a more equal playing field, with the FF users and the 600-800 mm lenses. Not equal but close. The IDX is just the most accurate camera I have ever seen for colors and AF. So I will surely go with the 1DX at some point.

It is clear that Canon is investing in other areas. As I see it. I also have the Sigma 500mm f4.5 lens, and it is a verrrry good lens. Not a Canon II replacement, but I will definitely buy the next Crop semi pro body from Pentax to use with it. Sigma is sharp, very pleasant to use and just all around a good lens. Canon 500 II is the clear winner. Now!

If Pentax EVER puts out a good semi-pro body I will run some tests and real world use. Without being brand loyal at all. I personally am looking forward to Sigma producing a good super telephoto line with interchangeable mount. For me I will be all over that.
As a birder I don't shoot BIF much and AF accuracy is the most important thing for me at this point. So AFS is my most used AF mode. And the other camera manufacturers that use the most recent sensors will be good enough for me.
So the 70D is dead in the water for me. Others will love it for the video no doubt. But sensor technology and AF is my main concern at this point.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Wow! I am new to this forum and I have two comments.
1. You all have way too much time on your hands. If you need something to do, I have lots of projects that need getting done.
2. I am surprised to see Nixon users on a Canon forum. What's with that? Shouldn't you be on a Nixon forum or something?
This thread has really turned me off to this forum.

Oh those pesky "Nixon" users and their DiRty politics! Boo!

;D

Some of the 'Nikon' users posting here have used Canon since 1987 and some since before that. Just because you don't say every Canon piece of equipment is not the best every made by anyone in every single respect does not mean you are a Nikon user.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I've just added my web site as my signature. Did not intend to be anonymous.

OK, well fair enough on that point then.

 

[tnargs]

Re: 70D and Dxomark.... canon´s sensor not even on par with nikon´s D7000

but a few weeks ago I DID recommend a friend of mine to buy nikon instead of canon. that´s what i had to do. nikon has been simply far better in sensor-quality over the last years. i hope this will change.

Did your friend want to buy a sensor, or a camera?

Nothing wrong with owning a Sony-based Nikon, though. This year. Trouble is, if he stocks up on Nikon lenses etc, and next years Canon is the best sensor, you're going to wish you'd thought about one or two other factors that come into it.

Let's hope your friend doesn't buy a Nikon and then get a bit excited about video, then come back to you saying "damn this video focusing is crap!" :

 

[starship]

Re: 70D and Dxomark.... canon´s sensor not even on par with nikon´s D7000

but a few weeks ago I DID recommend a friend of mine to buy nikon instead of canon. that´s what i had to do. nikon has been simply far better in sensor-quality over the last years. i hope this will change.

Did your friend want to buy a sensor, or a camera?

Nothing wrong with owning a Sony-based Nikon, though. This year. Trouble is, if he stocks up on Nikon lenses etc, and next years Canon is the best sensor, you're going to wish you'd thought about one or two other factors that come into it.

Let's hope your friend doesn't buy a Nikon and then get a bit excited about video, then come back to you saying "damn this video focusing is crap!" :

she wanted a good camera. for photographie. she wanted to buy it now. therefore i recommended a nikon. canon and nikon cams are both capable systems. but sensor quality is picture quality (some people even buy full-frame because of that). if she will really gets into video in 2 years, i can live with that.

 

[Famateur]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear. If you're at that level, and you have that kind of gear, then what in the world are you doing wasting time spouting on an internet forum about cameras you'll never use? Just a pissing match? Go shoot some photos already!

Crap...I got popcorn butter on my keyboard...

 

[Pi]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

 

[Famateur]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

Yeah...'cause there are so many people complaining that the 1DX is just holding them back with their photography. :

Buy anything but Canon because a D90 is better than a 1DX? I nearly bucksnorted my soda and spilled my popcorn all over my laptop! If this isn't proof that the DR debate is ridiculous, I don't know what is...LOL.

Do DR zealots really expect to convince people that are happy with the results from their Canon cameras to suddenly agree with them? Or suddenly awaken to the fact that the photos they've enjoyed or even sold to pleased clients are actually inferior garbage because there's a better sensor out there? C'mon. Life is too short.

Sure, everyone would appreciate a leap forward in DR and high ISO noise, but there's a whole beautiful world of photographs that's flourishing just fine in the meantime.

 

[vab3]

Isn't the interesting innovation here that we may have better live view/video autofocus with no loss of quality over the previous sensor? This technology will eventually work its way into other larger and smaller cameras. Just sayin'. People want video. We look at our pictures on our screens and phones. We film ourselves twerking and put it on youtube. And the sensor that can do that still has great quality for prints.


p.s. I would like more dynamic range, too. 5d mk iv?

 

[Aglet]

.. learn how to expose properly, and take some freaking pictures for God sake or sell your gear and jump to sony for all I care... Just stop this nonsense.

how do YOU "expose properly" for a scene that exceeds your Canon's DR?
Are you content to clip highlites and shadows and live with the out-of-camera tone curve for every shot?
If so, your advice may not register with the more artistic photographers.

Aglet Aglet Aglet ::Shakes head:: I expose the way I expose. I've been shooting professionally for the last 10 years and been shooting even longer... I look at a scene, look at what the meter tells me, and I either go with it or call it's bluff and compensate as i see fit. It's not rocket science. I get a shot, if it looks the way I want it to, great, if not, I compensate more. When it's exposed the way I want it, It's good. If you dont know how to expose, go, get off this forum, and start shooting.

As far as going into a scene with too much DR... what absolute non-sense... I've shot back in the days of 4x5 film, shot transparency, medium format, the early canon DSLRs which had what, 5 stops of DR? If a scene is too dark, brighten it, if you cant brigten it without over exposing something else, use flash, or even better off camera flash, or reflector or some other way to manipulate the light. Dear god son, this is photo 101, well maybe 102. This isn't hard. A real photographer doesn't blame his gear for not getting the shot. A real photographer knows what needs to be done, and makes the photo even better. As i've said before, a client NEVER has looked at my photos and said "it's a shame there wasn't more DR"... Hell, the average client doesn't even know what noise is. This is pure pixel peeping madness and it's disgusting.

Well, that was kind of a rhetorical question. I know the answers.

What you seem to be saying is "compromise your exposure" or "manipulate the light" to fit your gear.
Perfectly good advice, that's what has to be done whether it's to fit the limitations of the camera or to change the appearance of the scene. However, such methods are not always desirable or even possible. So that advice, good as it is, may also be a bit trite.
I just prefer to have equipment that's less limiting than Canon's, especially since there have been better options available for a few years now and Canon's only improved marginally (base ISO) since their original CMOS sensor hit the scene years before that. They've in fact gone backwards and have only recently returned to where they used to be a few system generations ago when it comes to FPN.

I'm probably not the only one that's not surprised, and also disappointed, that the 70D is not significantly improved for still photography over its predecessor except for an improved AF system.
This simply means we're STILL waiting for Canon to catch up to the competition in the area of basic sensor system metrics.
That said, what they've accomplished with this new sensor-based AF is impressive! Adding the 7d's PDAF system is a big plus too.

I've still made lots of great images with my Canons, (especially the Digic 3 and older ones) but I've also experienced plenty of situations in landscape shooting where FPN (Digic 4 systems) has shown up, not just in shadows, but in midtones. Some of this FPN is not just read noise in shadows but also seems to be intra-sensor inconsistency. Translation, their sensor production lines are not as precise as they need to be. But I digress…

70d's to be lauded for its AF breakthrough, but not much else as far as I can see.

 

[Aglet]

On my 1DX I just hit a couple of button and bracket, never failed me this far. Generally prefer the results I get from blending exposures over what I get from using sliders on 1 exposure too .

Exposure blending's a great work-around, but not always practical. (moving scene elements)

 

[Aglet]

Well, as innovative as the 70D's new dual-sensel pixels for continuous AF are, the overall signal to noise ratios, as reported by DxOmark, have changed very little. Hopefully there'll be less banding in dark shadow for those who need to push it but I thought I'd put together some animated gifs to compare the difference between the 70D and the 60D and then the 70D compared to the Nikon D5200.
I hope DxOmark will allow this editorial use of their material here. If not, it can be removed easily enough.
I find the complete SNR graphs are more useful to see where the low ISO deep shadow SNR limits are and what the highlite end shows for difference, which combined can help indicate DR and more. Switching between them is a useful way to quickly see the differences.

One take away from all of this though is that somehow they managed to double the number of pixels and add a significantly useful feature (the Dual Pixel AF) without breaking anything. Of course it doesn't look like they made any significant improvement in the low end noise either -- oh well. However, I think the jury is still out until we get a look at the back of a lens cap (or something similar) to see what the pattern noise looks like. I am very curious if any improvement has been made in that area.

+1, the AF development is quite remarkable and accomplished w-o breaking still IQ performance, actually improving on it ever so slightly in some areas.
I'll get some lens cap shots as soon as my local dealer has some stock. I'm curious about not just what FPN there may be, but whether I can also see where the dual sensels are bordered by the regular ones.

 

[trav.cunningham]

Wow! I am new to this forum and I have two comments.
1. You all have way too much time on your hands. If you need something to do, I have lots of projects that need getting done.
2. I am surprised to see Nixon users on a Canon forum. What's with that? Shouldn't you be on a Nixon forum or something?
This thread has really turned me off to this forum.

Might I suggest you go look at the images section of the forum... there are some absolutely fantastic images there and it is both a great source of inspiration and a place to ask questions. It has helped many of us to become better photographers.... and the images are taken with everything from p/s cameras to $15,000 lens/body combo...

Thanks Don. I will be spending my time on that thread. I didn't mean to be rude, I was just very surprised.

For what it's worth, the 70D will be my upgrade from my Rebel.

 

[David Hull]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

 

[Pi]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

 

[Alrik89]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Well, i want to see some of these guys - that one, that earn a lot of money with photography and bought a Nikon only for DR reason.
And i am still waiting for tons of pictures of the DR zealots here at CR to show the awesomeness of their pictures. Until now, we still get to see only really awful shots.
Hey, DR zealots, that is your chance: come up with your best work and excite us all.

 

[David Hull]

Just thought I'd point out that we're at 11 pages of yet another Nikon/Sony vs. Canon sensor debate regarding...the 70D! It's a mid-level amateur/enthusiast DLSR for heaven's sake!!!

If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Yea...



Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

I suspect that DR is not the number one priority for most people buying a 1Dx.

Famateur suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

Yea, I saw that one. I didn't know that DR was a "professional" feature. You learn something every day, I guess

 

[Famateur]

Famateur suggested that it is: If you really need dynamic range that badly, you should be making enough money from your photography to buy professional level gear.

No, actually I didn't suggest or imply that in my statement -- intentionally, anyway. Apparently I failed to communicate my point well (that happens occasionally ).

It was not that you must buy a 1DX to get DR. In fact, I deliberately made no mention of make, model or sensor in that statement (Pi brought in the 1DX DR comparison). It was simply to note that if your photography is at a high enough level that a stop or two of dynamic range is legitimately holding you back, what on earth are you doing complaining about the sensor in a mid-level amateur/enthusiast crop-sensor camera?

My point about "professional level gear" was more about the fact that I don't see a lot of noteworthy photographers spending much time complaining about their gear (or the competition's gear). They're too busy making beautiful photos. I also don't see a lot of people whom I consider in the market segment Canon is aiming the 70D at ever talking about (or in a lot of instances even aware of) dynamic range.

Does the constant back-and-forth about DR on a thread about a mid-level amateur/enthusiast crop-sensor camera seem silly to anyone else?

Ah crap...I've gotten sucked in and have transgressed against the 10 commandments of CR by becoming the forth to someone else's back. Time for some penance...

 

[Famateur]

D'oh! My comment HAD to push it to TWELVE pages! Sorry everyone...