70D and Dxomark....

[rpt]

Re: Black-Cap event

Kind of like this but with something a little more edible!

I'd be the guy with the coffee.....

Good choice. Anyone but Harold

 

[duydaniel]

Let's fight:
http://youtu.be/qTVfFmENgPU

 

[Pi]

This thread is about sensor performance, and has been since the beginning.

Curious that you say that, Pi. Your tone seemed to make the conclusion that based on sensor performance (specifically DR), you would recommend anything but Canon, joining in with other posts saying that Canon "sucks".

It is an illusion.

Example:

Sadly, the 1DX has worse DR at base ISO than the ancient D90.

I would say, if you need DR badly, buy anything but Canon.

There have been a few posts where the so-called "Canon Fanboys" openly acknowledge that the Sony sensors are superior in dynamic range at certain ISO levels. Why is that not enough? Because they don't buy the garbage that, based on that dynamic range, only a fool would choose Canon over Nikon (Sony)?

Wow, is that how you read my post? Did you notice the if you need DR badly part of it, which, BTW, was in the post I replied to?

(Incidentally, I happen to really enjoy some of the breathtaking images "fools" like Andy Rouse are producing with their "inferior" Canon gear.)

Well, do not call him "fool" then. And do not call the Canon gear "inferior".

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Thank goodness they are very skilled photographers and know what they're doing because their cameras are not giving them the slightest advantage vs. Canon. Canon "banding getting worse" ... what banding? Canon "falling behind in color sensitivity"? ... I wish Nikon color were as good.

You seriously did notice the banding got worse going for 1Ds3 to 5D2? Or 40D to 50D? And then better again from 5D2 to 6D (although maybe still a trace behind the old 1Ds3)?

You actually think that many Nikons have not had a lot less banding than stuff like 50D,5D2,5D3,1D4,etc.?

Maybe you don't ever shoot to where it matters, but that is something else.

You wish Nikon color sensitivity were as good? It's better.
As for what color is better overall, not just talking color sensitivity, that is a very complex topic with no easy answers. Overall it seems Nikon has filters that allow for more accurate color overall on average although Canon make make certain skin types easier to pull off nicely. It's a very twisted subejct and it varies model to model and in many cases there is probably no universal answer comparing any given body to any given other it might depend upon the very exactingly specific question you ask. But in terms of color sensitivity and metamerism overall on average Nikon has often been a full stop ahead recently.

1Ds3 to 5D2 -- that's going from the a top of the line model to a model costing half as much. You're really stretching here.

40D was same generation as the 1Ds3 and also had a lot less banding than the more costly 5D2 which was of the really bad banding generation along with the 50D

40D to 50D -- that was 2008; we are now two models post 50D. You're really stretching to prove this alleged decline.

How it is stretching anything. you said there was never any decline, there was. They spent a few generations getting worse before now climbing finally back to where they had been over half a decade ago.

5D2 to 6D -- the 6D is significantly better in image quality. There is no banding, let alone "worse" banding.

That is what I said, with the 6D they finally got the cameras back almost to where they had been in the 1Ds3 era.

I used two 5D2's for a total of nearly 400K exposures. No banding problem. I must be shooting "where it never matters", or perhaps I don't massively underexpose.

How many times does it need to be said that it's not about underexposure!

I didn't say Nikon has less banding. I said banding is not an issue with current Canon models. And there you go again with the 50D.

You said you never saw any changes and that they had never risen and declined and risen again, something a heck of a lot different than there is no banding with current models. And the latter isn't even quite true since while the 6D and 1DX do pretty well with it they are still a touch worse than old 1Ds3 in that regard and somewhat worse than most of the Exmor cameras at any price. And the 5D3 is very much a current model as is the 7D and they have a goodly amount of banding at low ISO (although the latest processing software is fairly good at hiding it with the 5D3, but when you are really pushing DR it still shows with the 5D3, in fact if it didn't, then how can people say the 6D clearly does better?).

As for Nikon color being "better" ... I've seen too many examples to the contrary.

Overall as a whole there sensors have been more color accurate overall at the RAW level. As I said it's a very complex thing and it also depends a ton upon what software and profile you use, tremendously so and also what you care about, if you care about a certain skin type under certain lighting type by far the most than Canon colors may overall seem better to you, if you care about some other aspect than very well maybe not since Nikon has tended to distinguish more fine shades overall and store them as RAW a bit more accurately as a whole, although no for every portion of the visible spectrum. There is no simple answer at all when it comes to color and there are so many different aspects to it.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Black-Cap event

I like simple, repeatable tests. But I also understand they're designed to test only one aspect, often one of a multitude of aspects, of system performance.

So who said otherwise (of course each specific little test only tests one or a few things)? And the way you sneeringly mock people for lens cap tests and such hardly makes it come across as if you like simple, repeatable tests.

It's about putting it in context. You seem to grasp that DR is merely one aspect of camera performance, not all DRones are so perceptive.

I get the impression that most are.

OTOH sometimes it sounds like the only single aspects that don't matter in the real world whatsoever just happen to be only and exactly the aspects that the camera they own doesn't do the very best at when it comes to those mocking the DR crowd. Once upon a time Canon had better DR than Nikon bodies and some of the same people were parading around about how they went Canon because the sensor was so much better.

Fine. How do you explain the dozens of other threads that aren't about sensor performance, or where Sony/Nikon sensors aren't even mentioned, until the DRones bring their DRivel? Threads about lenses, threads about autofocus, threads about dead pixels, I've seen all DRagged down into the dolDRums by the you-know-whos.

I don't know that I have seen that happen so much. They've mostly been threads about DR, about image quality in general or a new camera in general. I don't recall lens forums flooded with cries about DR.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Black-Cap event

When I push my shadows a few stops, I don't see the banding others report. That could be because my shots aren't underexposed by 5 stops before I push the shadows.

See there you go again. You pretend to be high and mighty and cleanly above it all but you always sneak in cheap shots that you know are misleading. You well know that wanting more DR is about far more than just rescuing the odd shot where the exposure got totally blown (not that sure wouldn't be nice, who wouldn't want that, nobody is perfect and here and there everyone blows a rare one of shot or doesn't have time to adjust settings in time for something that comes out of the blue, but again that is just a side element to the greater issue). You perfectly well understand that.

Instead of just saying that for what you shoot you just don't run into banding issues with any of the cameras you toss in tired out misleading points and try to make the other side appear to be incompetents. But of course you are so high and mighty above Ankorwatt. Granted most are probably guilty of such things to some extent at times.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I can't help but think that this would make an epic food fight if we were all in one room with copious amounts of colorful pudding to fling... ;D

this is why i always use a lens hood and protective UV filter

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

And if Canon has the right to keep sending out user surveys trying to gauge how trapped users feel by their Canon lens collections and to keep judging how far they can get away with not updating their sensors fabs then Ankorwatt can be free to keep griping about it. Why is Canon some holy thing for playing that game and Ankor the devil?

 

[JoeDavid]

Camera Labs is usually pretty impartial. You might want to take a look at their RAW comparison:

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_EOS_70D/RAW_noise.shtml

Pretty ugly at the higher ISOs...

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

The really funny thing is that deep down at heart, I'm actually a bit of a Canon fanboy.

Since I can't help but say get a hint of a smile if I see some test reveal some new Canon lens to have record breaking performance or what not and if I was 100% neutral and 100% lacking in fanboy then that shouldn't be the case. I've just used Canon for so long.

I like Canon to be the best at everything under the sun (but have no problem believing they might not be or in pointing out when they fall way behind in something or start getting a bit out of control in crippling something although some crippling is to be naturally expected).

 

[Loswr]

And if Canon has the right to keep sending out user surveys trying to gauge how trapped users feel by their Canon lens collections and to keep judging how far they can get away with not updating their sensors fabs then Ankorwatt can be free to keep griping about it. Why is Canon some holy thing for playing that game and Ankor the devil?

Because Canon is trying to assess the wants and needs of the customer base in an effort to produce more marketable products (note that 'more marketable' doesn't necessarily mean 'better'), whereas Mikael/ankorwatt is just an Internet troll.

Harsh to call him a troll? I think he fits the definition perfectly. He posts the same statements, the same images, over and over in thread after thread. He's bright enough to know the reaction his posts will provoke, that doesn't stop him. He's persistent enough that he created multiple user accounts to push his points, and even willing to modify the behavior that got him banned the first time, just to keep posting the same points and images (modified partially - fewer insulting posts, but it slips out sometimes, and he's never really stopped accusing people of inadequate understanding of concepts when the issue is they understand the concepts just fine, but also understand they lack relevance to them). He touts his years of experience, but in hundreds of posts, how many times has he used that experience to try and help other users, answer their questions about gear or photography, or posted images from his portfolio, other than to further his crusade against the poor low ISO DR of Canon sensors? Not zero, but damn few...maybe 1-3% of his posts don't relate to poor Canon sensor performance. So, why does he bother to continue posting the same statements and 'examples'? Trolling.

He's not alone in having earned that moniker, but he's certainly one of the more flagrant examples of it here.

 

[Loswr]

maybe 1-3% of his posts don't relate to poor Canon sensor performance

That's probably an underestimate. I forgot about the posts defending Nikon lenses, including many about how fluorite elements are suboptimal because they're fragile and Nikon's ED glass is just as good optically. I haven't seen him make that argument since Nikon announced their new 800/5.6 with amazing MTF curves...and two fluorite elements.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

And if Canon has the right to keep sending out user surveys trying to gauge how trapped users feel by their Canon lens collections and to keep judging how far they can get away with not updating their sensors fabs then Ankorwatt can be free to keep griping about it. Why is Canon some holy thing for playing that game and Ankor the devil?

Because Canon is trying to assess the wants and needs of the customer base in an effort to produce more marketable products (note that 'more marketable' doesn't necessarily mean 'better'), whereas Mikael/ankorwatt is just an Internet troll.

Well the way they were asking questions it was pretty clear they were trying to judge how trapped and locked into the Canon system their base was, they basically more or less even out right asked that, and more than once. That is a bit different than simply assessing the needs and wants of the customers. But more seeing how much leeway they had to get away with in some cases not meeting their needs and wants.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

maybe 1-3% of his posts don't relate to poor Canon sensor performance

That's probably an underestimate. I forgot about the posts defending Nikon lenses, including many about how fluorite elements are suboptimal because they're fragile and Nikon's ED glass is just as good optically. I haven't seen him make that argument since Nikon announced their new 800/5.6 with amazing MTF curves...and two fluorite elements.

I didn't see those posts but I'll give you that, if true. That sounds a bit trollish. Canon's fluorite elements are pretty awesome and they have some mighty fine lenses. (So is Nikon finally making true pure fluorite elements now with the 800mm or is it still heavily fluorite doped glass?)

 

[Aglet]

Re: Black-Cap event

70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.

Case in point - this is how Aglet evaluates a new camera: 'pictures' with the lens cap on. He'll then boost the black images 4-5 stops, and tell us all how crappy the 'pictures' are, and how Canon still hasn't made their sensors cameras any better.

Yawn.

raw files are pushed 4 stops

Do you look for bio-luminescent markers with the room lights on?

(BTW, are you a real scientist?... cuz you sure spend a LOT more time on this forum during the work day than I'd like to see any employee of mine doing)

 

[Aglet]

New thread with 70D lens cap tests and text interpretation. sorry no time for visuals tonite.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=16713.0


Happy long weekend everybody.
Go shoot something! w i t h a C A M E R A.

 

[Loswr]

And if Canon has the right to keep sending out user surveys trying to gauge how trapped users feel by their Canon lens collections and to keep judging how far they can get away with not updating their sensors fabs then Ankorwatt can be free to keep griping about it. Why is Canon some holy thing for playing that game and Ankor the devil?

Because Canon is trying to assess the wants and needs of the customer base in an effort to produce more marketable products (note that 'more marketable' doesn't necessarily mean 'better'), whereas Mikael/ankorwatt is just an Internet troll.

Well the way they were asking questions it was pretty clear they were trying to judge how trapped and locked into the Canon system their base was, they basically more or less even out right asked that, and more than once. That is a bit different than simply assessing the needs and wants of the customers. But more seeing how much leeway they had to get away with in some cases not meeting their needs and wants.

I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. I said Canon wants to assess customers' needs and wants. I didn't say their goal is to meet them. Seriously, if Canon thought they could slap their logo on Kobe steer manure and profit from it, they would - that's their mandate. That's what marketing is all about - lipstick on pigs and logos on cow poop, as long as it sells. Marketing...unfortunately like tax collectors and lawyers, a necessary evil in today's society. Not that I'm cynical about that...

 

[dtaylor]

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 12 fps-capable body and handholdable 600mm f/4 lens as part of the system can mean (1D X + EF 600mm f/4L IS II on top, no competiton on the bottom):

Wait...you mean we can use these cameras for something other then shooting walls at -5EV? 8)

Great shots btw.

 

[dtaylor]

I don't really get why canon users need to defend their far inferior sensor.....Envy?

I don't really get why Sony/Nikon users need to come to a Canon forum and blabber on and on and on about how superior their sensors are when the truth is they couldn't pick out 30" prints in a double blind test if their lives depended on it.

Then again, I don't shoot walls at -5 EV. And when I do lift shadows, I use a little something called noise reduction. I know, I'm weird that way, wanting to shoot other subjects at correct exposures...

 

[zlatko]

Thank goodness they are very skilled photographers and know what they're doing because their cameras are not giving them the slightest advantage vs. Canon. Canon "banding getting worse" ... what banding? Canon "falling behind in color sensitivity"? ... I wish Nikon color were as good.

You seriously did notice the banding got worse going for 1Ds3 to 5D2? Or 40D to 50D? And then better again from 5D2 to 6D (although maybe still a trace behind the old 1Ds3)?

You actually think that many Nikons have not had a lot less banding than stuff like 50D,5D2,5D3,1D4,etc.?

Maybe you don't ever shoot to where it matters, but that is something else.

You wish Nikon color sensitivity were as good? It's better.
As for what color is better overall, not just talking color sensitivity, that is a very complex topic with no easy answers. Overall it seems Nikon has filters that allow for more accurate color overall on average although Canon make make certain skin types easier to pull off nicely. It's a very twisted subejct and it varies model to model and in many cases there is probably no universal answer comparing any given body to any given other it might depend upon the very exactingly specific question you ask. But in terms of color sensitivity and metamerism overall on average Nikon has often been a full stop ahead recently.

1Ds3 to 5D2 -- that's going from the a top of the line model to a model costing half as much. You're really stretching here.

40D was same generation as the 1Ds3 and also had a lot less banding than the more costly 5D2 which was of the really bad banding generation along with the 50D

40D to 50D -- that was 2008; we are now two models post 50D. You're really stretching to prove this alleged decline.

How it is stretching anything. you said there was never any decline, there was. They spent a few generations getting worse before now climbing finally back to where they had been over half a decade ago.

5D2 to 6D -- the 6D is significantly better in image quality. There is no banding, let alone "worse" banding.

That is what I said, with the 6D they finally got the cameras back almost to where they had been in the 1Ds3 era.

I used two 5D2's for a total of nearly 400K exposures. No banding problem. I must be shooting "where it never matters", or perhaps I don't massively underexpose.

How many times does it need to be said that it's not about underexposure!

I didn't say Nikon has less banding. I said banding is not an issue with current Canon models. And there you go again with the 50D.

You said you never saw any changes and that they had never risen and declined and risen again, something a heck of a lot different than there is no banding with current models. And the latter isn't even quite true since while the 6D and 1DX do pretty well with it they are still a touch worse than old 1Ds3 in that regard and somewhat worse than most of the Exmor cameras at any price. And the 5D3 is very much a current model as is the 7D and they have a goodly amount of banding at low ISO (although the latest processing software is fairly good at hiding it with the 5D3, but when you are really pushing DR it still shows with the 5D3, in fact if it didn't, then how can people say the 6D clearly does better?).

As for Nikon color being "better" ... I've seen too many examples to the contrary.

Overall as a whole there sensors have been more color accurate overall at the RAW level. As I said it's a very complex thing and it also depends a ton upon what software and profile you use, tremendously so and also what you care about, if you care about a certain skin type under certain lighting type by far the most than Canon colors may overall seem better to you, if you care about some other aspect than very well maybe not since Nikon has tended to distinguish more fine shades overall and store them as RAW a bit more accurately as a whole, although no for every portion of the visible spectrum. There is no simple answer at all when it comes to color and there are so many different aspects to it.

I can't speak about every camera Canon has made, but I've had no banding problem with the 5D3, 6D, 5D2, 7D or 60D. The "goodly amount of banding" you claim with the 5D3 just doesn't exist in my 5D3. I don't know what people are doing with these cameras to have a banding problem.

"Really pushing DR" ... what does that mean? ... Is this all about being able to radically push the sliders in Lightroom?