70D and Dxomark....
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Re: Black-Cap event
Lens cap shots? Pushed 4 stops?? I've never heard of a worse way to evaluate a camera. That's not even photography. It shows something, but has no practical relevance.
Aglet said:
Lens cap shots? Pushed 4 stops?? I've never heard of a worse way to evaluate a camera. That's not even photography. It shows something, but has no practical relevance.
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meli said:
Or perhaps you just don't know how to expose, process, and print a 7D RAW file.
It's the case pretty much all of the time with the exception of underexposing walls, pushing +5 EV, and leaving default NR or turning NR off completely.
One thing I have to give to Ken Rockwell is his evaluation of the levels of photography, especially the lowest level. Tell me he doesn't describe to a T the DR trolls who keep coming here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm
The differences in output are an order of magnitude less significant then the next least significant variable. Honestly I've put more time and thought into what paper I want to print on then whether I should shoot Canon or Nikon, because the paper choice matters more.
I was making fun of your hyperbole.
A) Claiming tonality would be better in an ISO 100 shot pushed 5 EV then in a native ISO 3200 shot only illustrates your ignorance about how tonality is encoded. Please review the technical literature on why we expose to the right.
B) I would actually agree that Sony sensors are better at +5 EV then Canon sensors. And if I regularly blew my exposures by -5 EV, or regularly shot with a broken flash, I might consider that a large advantage. Since this has happened...um...never...it doesn't really matter, does it?
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Re: Black-Cap event
Only 4 stops? Are you sure that's enough? Or is that just the limit of the exposure slider?
Yes, we have the room lights on - hard to do experiments in the dark (except testing sensors, that's obviously better in the dark). FWIW, the room lights are spectrally filtered to eliminate light in the emission wavelengths of the markers. Hey, that gives me an idea - if shooting with the lens cap on is a good way to test sensors, maybe shooting in bizarre, oligochromatic light would be a good way to test auto WB?
Well, the PhD in neuroscience certainly suggests I'm a 'real' scientist. So do the publications listed on my CV. As for time, science often isn't a 9-5 job, which is great for me because I'd really dislike something so mundane. But thanks for the snide remark. Looking forward to more lens cap shots....but be careful - if you take too many, you may find yourself forgetting to take the cap off for an actual picture, and that would be a great loss.
Aglet said:
Only 4 stops? Are you sure that's enough? Or is that just the limit of the exposure slider?
Yes, we have the room lights on - hard to do experiments in the dark (except testing sensors, that's obviously better in the dark). FWIW, the room lights are spectrally filtered to eliminate light in the emission wavelengths of the markers. Hey, that gives me an idea - if shooting with the lens cap on is a good way to test sensors, maybe shooting in bizarre, oligochromatic light would be a good way to test auto WB?
Well, the PhD in neuroscience certainly suggests I'm a 'real' scientist. So do the publications listed on my CV. As for time, science often isn't a 9-5 job, which is great for me because I'd really dislike something so mundane. But thanks for the snide remark. Looking forward to more lens cap shots....but be careful - if you take too many, you may find yourself forgetting to take the cap off for an actual picture, and that would be a great loss.
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Wow, egofest 2013. Let the pixel peepers babble, and photographers continue to win awards and make money without anyone telling them it was because of DR. =P Some of you guys shouldn't be photographers, you should just apply for the engineering department for any of the competing brands.
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zlatko said:
Yes. That's all this discussion is about. Nikon...er, Sony...sensor fanboys taking terribly underexposed photos, turning off NR, shoving the exposure slider to +5EV, and then crying about noise and banding.
Never mind that people don't underexpose like that...
Never mind the complete loss of subtle tonality when you push that hard...
Never mind that the differences are much smaller when you actually use NR...
Never mind that the differences are smaller still when you view at normal sizes...
All that matters in the entire world of photography is shooting a wall at -5EV. I don't know how anyone ever made a photograph before Sony's revolutionary sensors.
Side note: I bet cult members don't push as hard as the DRboys in this forum.
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duydaniel said:
Here, for example:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6sEEih63_X7ejAyTmktUXZDMlE/edit?usp=sharing
And here is the "unprocessed RAW" (I love that term
):https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6sEEih63_X7dFFnN1pDWGFfVms/edit?usp=sharing
Nothing drastic done. Open them with a color managed viewer.
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duydaniel said:
It is at LOW ISO in the very darkest tones where it has more banding than Exmor not at high ISO. At very high ISO it does even a trace better than D800.
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dtaylor said:
Umm no, that is what the fanboys CLAIM the people who wouldn't more DR are all about when it is not remotely true. The only people mentioning underexposing everything by five stops are the pure fanboys, it sure ain't the people who wouldn't mind a bit more DR to work with in order to expand real world photographic possibilities.
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Re: Black-Cap event
Maybe. If you'd like to develop a technique, fill yer boots.
Don't forget to be mindful of the filters peak admittance and asymmetrical shoulder responses and the effects that has on QE & debayering algorithms and how they differ from mfr to mfr and model to model .. and temperature.
It wasn't intended as snide.
I don't pay too much attention to you so don't know if you're for real or just a wannabe neuroscientist with a nifty avatar.
Just seems kinda odd you spend probably as much time on this forum as you do being a scientist... None of the science PhDs I work with divert so much of their energy in alternative directions. But they're not in neurology; is that where the money is?
yup, it's enough, and it's the limit of my slider. So it's pretty consistent.neuroanatomist said:
neuroanatomist said:
Maybe. If you'd like to develop a technique, fill yer boots.
Don't forget to be mindful of the filters peak admittance and asymmetrical shoulder responses and the effects that has on QE & debayering algorithms and how they differ from mfr to mfr and model to model .. and temperature.
neuroanatomist said:
It wasn't intended as snide.
I don't pay too much attention to you so don't know if you're for real or just a wannabe neuroscientist with a nifty avatar.
Just seems kinda odd you spend probably as much time on this forum as you do being a scientist... None of the science PhDs I work with divert so much of their energy in alternative directions. But they're not in neurology; is that where the money is?
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It's funny how last fall when I started looking at cameras as a serious hobby, all I wanted was a D800E, "the ultimate in camera technology" (so I would say to myself).
To start with I bought the cheapest Rebel they make (just to use with the 400f5.6, for which there is no Nikon equivalent), but I always knew I'd upgrade, hopefully to the D800E right? Oh man am I glad I didn't jump on that ship. Over the winter I found out how much live view in the D800 sucks, and that's almost all I do with a camera on a regular basis (macro and close-ups of neat little things). My stinky little T3 just happens to be perfectly suited to long exposures and spending hours on end in live view (and it actually works quite well with the 400f5.6 too).
Would a few stops of dynamic range make up for that? Not a chance. The specs on the sensor don't mean a thing if I can't use the freaking camera. Now the 70D comes out, and once again the sensor is pretty ho-hum. Same old story, but that thing is jam packed with improvements to user functionality. So who actually has their priorities straight?
To start with I bought the cheapest Rebel they make (just to use with the 400f5.6, for which there is no Nikon equivalent), but I always knew I'd upgrade, hopefully to the D800E right? Oh man am I glad I didn't jump on that ship. Over the winter I found out how much live view in the D800 sucks, and that's almost all I do with a camera on a regular basis (macro and close-ups of neat little things). My stinky little T3 just happens to be perfectly suited to long exposures and spending hours on end in live view (and it actually works quite well with the 400f5.6 too).
Would a few stops of dynamic range make up for that? Not a chance. The specs on the sensor don't mean a thing if I can't use the freaking camera. Now the 70D comes out, and once again the sensor is pretty ho-hum. Same old story, but that thing is jam packed with improvements to user functionality. So who actually has their priorities straight?
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
The only examples I've seen demonstrating the 'undeniable awesomeness of Sony sensors' are walls at -5EV. If the 'crowd that just wants more DR' is producing better photographs (the kind people want to actually look at) thanks to Sony sensors, they sure as hell aren't posting any of them here.
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
So what kind of shutter speed are we talking?
Low ISO in extremely dark places, sounds like pictures where you have the time to setup a tripod or lean on something to take a picture.
Wouldn't you also have the time to take 7 pictures then? and make an HDR for some extra DR.....
Sure it is nice to have , but the 'need' for it may be overrated?
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Pi said:
No the "example" you posted is a perfect example of why actual photographers don't understand why some of you have such issues.
First, this scene does not have a wide dynamic range! There is very little DR in that scene, probably around five or six stops, a decent P&S can cover that range at 400iso.
Second, you didn't ETTR, you did use +0.33 EC but that wasn't enough for an optimal RAW exposure.
Third, your post processing exposes the fact that you just don't know what you are doing. Try this, I just did to your jpeg file. Exposure up 1.35 (that is where you should have been exposing by the way) Highlights down -37. That is how to post process your image, you have detail where you wanted it, but you have zero noise and banding even at 300% (with zero noise reduction).
Fourth, even at 100% and badly processed the banding is not serious enough to destroy the image, a little noise reduction and it is gone anyway, try +35 NR in Lightroom and it disappears.
Your "example" is not an example of failing Canon sensor capabilities, it is an example of you not knowing what you are doing at exposure time and in post. What you have illustrated is if you expose incorrectly, then process badly, then don't take any steps to mitigate those errors you can end up with slight noise and banding, you will forgive me for not taking your demonstration of Canon sensor issues seriously.
There is a kernel of truth in this DR "debate" but most of the "examples" posted just don't stand up and do not actually illustrate the "problem" at all, that is why there is such a staunch defense of Canon gear from some people here. You think your sensor failed you at that concert, it didn't, you didn't educate yourself on a competent way to use your equipment.
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privatebydesign said:
You might be right about the decent P&S. But a Canon dSLR can't.
Are you kidding me? This is a live subject. What ETTR?
The guy would not stay still, you know.
100% chroma NR does not put a dent on it. 80% lumina hides most of it. 35% lumina hides the random noise but leaves the pattern noise in place.
Nonsense. But even if I was guilty of not exposing correctly ("Hey, you, would you stay still for a moment? Thank you!") so what? I posted the "unprocessed" image. It is not 4 stop underexposed, right? Any modern non-Canon sensor would not have a problem with that image.
I could have used ISO 800 vs. 400. The read noise penalty is likely worse with ISO 400. But the only reason ISO 800 would have helped, maybe, is the deficiency of the sensor. With any other modern sensor, the ISO would not matter much.
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Pi said:
The guy is standing in front of a stand mic with another set up for his acoustic guitar, did he have a roadie moving the stand for him too?
I shoot concerts, I shoot M and take some exposure tests shots, it is digital and takes less than five seconds, not AV in spot metering with EV comp, again, you are just making excuses for the fact you messed up, the sensor did not let you down.
I'll post 100% crops of your jpeg processed with competence if you want to labour the point even further.
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Pi said:
I did look at it, but I didn't think it was worth saying anything about.
To me the 'processed' shot looks a lot worse than your RAW shot.
Now I am not that good at processing either, but I usually end up with files that look better than the original raw image ( to my eyes anyway)
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