7D Mark-II as an action oriented DSLR

[StudentOfLight]

With:
i) speculation of there being a few prototype floating in the real world,
ii) knowing the various competitor offerings and
iii) factoring in the range of current Canon models,

it's hard to really know where exactly Canon plans to slot the 7D Mark-II into their DSLR portfolio.

I'm interested to know where you think the "real gap" is in Canon's lineup is. People have mentioned that certain pro features would be a deal breaker for them, while other seem to love the idea of such features. I see the 7D line (much like the 6D) as a key product from a brand awareness perspective (aka gateway drug), leading to bigger and better things. I have no doubt that the 7D-II would be heavily marketed as a result.

Considering a potentially large ATL marketing spend in a market with dwindling sales, timing would be critical. The strategy around the 7D-II product release would therefore most likely be influenced by Nikon's market activities. I believe that Canon would not want a product so important in their DSLR line to be one-upped by a strategic Nikon release. This combined with excessive stock of 7D bodies is perhaps the reason for such a long delay with releasing an update.

Anyway, In terms of the poll the one other spec to definitely link discussion to is what RAW buffer size you think would be reasonable. Lastly, in terms of AF system, it almost seems a given that some incarnation of the current 61pt AF system would be implemented, but this is not necessarily the case. If you have any different ideas please share.

 

[mkabi]

Other: Same resolution as 70D, but much higher burst rate than the 70D because of the Dual Digic Processors.

 

[unfocused]

Note: this is not what a "wish list" but rather a prediction based on the market, competition and Canon's existing lineup:

24 mp dual pixel APS-C sensor;
Sensor performs marginally better than 70D sensor;
Autofocus equal to or exceeding the 5DIII;
Dual card slots, one each SD and CF;
Weather sealing somewhere between 5DIII and 1DX;
Mode dial replaced by 1D-style button (After CR Guy surfaced this rumor, I started thinking about it and it makes sense);
Touch Screen;
Integrated Wi-Fi and/or GPS;
Accessory grip/battery holder with weather-sealing slightly superior to 5DIII grip;
Frame rate slightly better than current 7D (Maybe 1-1.5 fps faster);
Pop-up flash with optical trigger (same as 7D);
Same back controls (joystick, click wheel, etc.) as 5DIII;
Fixed back screen (not tilting);
Video enhancements that I don't understand and won't use.

That about covers it.

 

[sagittariansrock]

24MP, 10 fps.
But I thought this was rumored pretty strongly long time ago, no?

 

[flyingSquirrel]

re

The OP and others have very logical thinking regarding such things as product lines, competition, marketing, and so forth ... and also seem to have a lot of knowledge about those particular things. I, on the other hand, don't pay attention to the various events/shows/marketing strategies, nor am I familiar with every camera body out there, nor do I follow anything Nikon or anyone else is doing. I hear some gasps ...

Not only that, but I've never used a pro body or full-frame body - I have a 7D and it's all I use (actually, I have 2 of them). The only input I can give in this discussion is speaking to my feelings about the 7D and what I'd like to see in the mk2.

I currently am shooting more wildlife and birds. The APS-C sensor is a huge boon. I use a 500 f4 IS II lens and 1.4x much of the time, and even that combo on a crop sensor is often not enough reach for many birds and smaller wildlife. People that have never actually tried shooting birds, have a hard time understanding how much magnification is really needed. I'm talking about getting the subject large enough in frame to avoid having to crop away all of your resolution, details, and making noise more prominent in the process.

IMO, the most critical thing that absolutely must be present is an appreciable increase in IQ / reduced noise. Without that, the mk2 would be (almost) useless to me, personally. Regardless of MP, FPS, and other specs, we need better noise performance at reasonable ISO's from 1000+ which is commonly needed for wildlife shooting. I'm usually dialed in around ISO 800 - 1250 ...1250 is sometimes usable especially if you ETTR, but around 1600 or so the IQ is degraded far too much for my taste. Anyway, I will be ecstatic if there is increased IQ / reduced noise.

After the IQ increase, my next requirement would be an improved AF system. Although I've never used a pro body, and the 7D is the best camera I've used so far, I have no problem in saying that the 7D AF is not up to what I need. There are too many AF fails, particularly in less than ideal light, with moving subjects (wildlife). Especially with birds in flight, the AF performance in the 7D is lacking. But, it was not meant to be a pro body, so I am understanding of the various shortcomings, and that is why I am still relatively happy with it given the price I paid (not outrageously high).

Frankly, if it were not for the APS-C 1.6x that I need for wildlife, I would have gone full-frame long ago. The IQ, AF, and MP on the FF bodies totally destroy the 7D, but I simply cannot give up the extra reach of the APS-C.

If, on top of an IQ increase, they could squeeze a few more MP in, I would not complain.

As far as FPS, I would be fine with an increase, but the 7D's 8 is fine with me.

I never was really interested in GPS or WIFI capabilities, but I'm sure if they are there I will like/use them...especially since I will probably be paying an arm and a leg for them...not that I didn't already use my other arm and leg to pay for the 500 f4

As far as the speculation on a more pro body style, I would be elated to see it happen. I stay in Manual Mode always, so losing the knob and other stuff that isn't necessary and can inadvertently be bumped would be welcome. Additionally, the integrated vertical grip style body like the 1 series would be awesome. I have the 7D battery grip. It is essentially useless to me when shooting wildlife, because I need to select different focus points with the thumb joystick on-the-fly as I am shooting moving subjects. The 7D battery grip obviously does not have the thumb joystick, nor can you reach the built-in body joystick when gripping the battery grip vertically. I rarely shoot vertical wildlife shots simply because I cannot select focus points and control everything easily in vertical format with the subject is moving. If the 7Dmk2 has the pro body with integrated grip similar to the 1D-x with the thumb joystick and everything, I would be thrilled.

Well, those are my thoughts for now, from a nature shooter's perspective. I am excited to see what happens.

 

[TrabimanUK]

Other: 24mp, dual pixel, 10 fps, i.e. more than 70D resolustion, same fps as 1DIV

Dual Digic 6 (maybe single Digic 6 and a Digic DV 4 if movie-oriented, though I hope not) or maybe dual Digic 6+ if that has been developed yet to make it a true rocket-ship of a camera.

We can hope

 

[daniela]

22MP, 8-10fps, equal DR like the 70D, Dual pixel AF, Dual card slots, better iso performance like the 5D3.

Price: 2500-3000 €

My Japanese girlfriends rumor that the price will be quite high (about 3000-3500€), like the 5D Mark III at startup. I do not hope that this will happen, but Canon is known to drain your money for "pro" equipment

 

[Random Orbits]

Before the 5DIII, many people carried 5DII/7D combos. I can see Canon making the 7DII good enough to make that happen again (5DIII/7DII). For that to happen, the 7DII will have to have a much higher frame rate and good AF performance, so...

The 60D and the 7D have the same MP, so I'm guessing 20.2MP, 10+ FPS with 5DIII/1DX AF-lite (smaller sensor means smaller AF module, which means fewer points and/or with smaller baselines). DR and ISO similar to 70D, but maybe a smidge better, but it still won't come close to matching FF performance. If it comes in at 8 FPS, then the difference is not big enough to entice 5DIII owners.

To keep the FPS up, I wouldn't be surprised the MP remains at 18MP. 18MP is still a much higher density compared to FF, so there is you "reach", and to keep the same battery, 18MP is a lot easier to process than 20+ MP at 10+ FPS. If the MP remains at 18MP, then I'd expect the 7DII to have slightly better high ISO performance than the 70D, but still much lower than FF.

 

[2n10]

22-24 MP, 10 FPS, hybrid 5DM3 AF system, F8 AF( dreaming possibly), same to slightly better IQ than 70D, DPAF.

 

[pierlux]

Re: re

...IMO, the most critical thing that absolutely must be present is an appreciable increase in IQ / reduced noise.

...we need better noise performance at reasonable ISO's from 1000+ which is commonly needed for wildlife shooting.

... I will be ecstatic if there is increased IQ / reduced noise.

...If, on top of an IQ increase, they could squeeze a few more MP in, I would not complain.

Welcome to CR! I wholeheartedly agree, and voted 'other'. The only specs that matter to me are related to IQ and FPS, so my wishlist is limited to:

1-2 stops better high ISO performance over the 7D (even at the expense of resolution if necessary), and

12-16 FPS (yes, equal or better than the 1Dx).

Before you label me as heretic, I would like to underline that achieving a speed equal or even better than the 1Dx in an APS-C-sized DSLR represent a much smaller engeneering effort than that required for FF since the mass of moving parts (mirror and shutter) involved is approx 1/3 of a FF camera, so much less inertia and, consequently, less energy required. This is entirely possible, and concern about possibly eating the flagship's sales is BS: I imagine a lot of 1Dx owners buying a 7DII to complement their flagship. Plus, amateurs like me, who cannot afford (or justify) the financial effort for a 1Dx and related big white glass, could finally deal seriously with sports and wildlife for less than half the cost of FF. In addition, should Canon lose a bunch of 1Dx sales, that would be largely compensated by selling other Canon gear in the form of 7DII.

On a side note, the high MP option of APS-C is already here: it's called 70D, and at this point, given the turnover of the xxD line, the 80D is not even so far away after all.

 

[Orangutan]

My guess: It will be intended for two primary markets: birders and Lexus-driving soccer-moms. 24MP resolution for birders to crop. The sensor tech will be a refinement of the 70D sensor tech, with slightly better output, but not as much as 1 stop low-light ISO. It will be built, priced and marketed to make it a "hard choice" whether to get the 7D2 or step up to the 5D3 for some customers. Initial price: $2100, but will drop quickly to $1800.

 

[Dylan777]

Current 7D does well for outdoor sports. Increase frame rate to 10fps will get a lot of interested. IQ will be better, should I say slightly better :

I have zero interest in crop sensor, however, I still want to see real specs too

 

[NancyP]

18 MP is enough for me. I am hoping for 10 fps, deep RAW buffer of 35 to 40 (or more?), Dual Digic 6 or equivalent speed improvement, improved AF similar to the AF on 1Dx/5D3, AF at f/8, sturdy and weather resistant (this I think is a no-brainer), ability to use really fast cards, and half a stop to a stop of improvement in high ISO performance. Yes, I know that there's not much headroom in the APS-C sensor quantum efficiency, but noise happens all along the signal processing chain. Whatever happened to CFast?

 

[StudentOfLight]

Note: this is not what a "wish list" but rather a prediction based on the market, competition and Canon's existing lineup:

24 mp dual pixel APS-C sensor;
Sensor performs marginally better than 70D sensor;
Autofocus equal to or exceeding the 5DIII;
Dual card slots, one each SD and CF;
Weather sealing somewhere between 5DIII and 1DX;
Mode dial replaced by 1D-style button (After CR Guy surfaced this rumor, I started thinking about it and it makes sense);
Touch Screen;
Integrated Wi-Fi and/or GPS;
Accessory grip/battery holder with weather-sealing slightly superior to 5DIII grip;
Frame rate slightly better than current 7D (Maybe 1-1.5 fps faster);
Pop-up flash with optical trigger (same as 7D);
Same back controls (joystick, click wheel, etc.) as 5DIII;
Fixed back screen (not tilting);
Video enhancements that I don't understand and won't use.

That about covers it.

I'm all for dual cards for events however I not a fan of cameras using two different card types. Personally I would prefer a single CFast2 slot over having CF+SD. Also I don't think camera would be aimed at the event shooter but rather aimed at speed. (1Dx which has dual CF so one CFast would be a welcome addition but still allow differentiation between tiers.)

 

[StudentOfLight]

Before the 5DIII, many people carried 5DII/7D combos. I can see Canon making the 7DII good enough to make that happen again (5DIII/7DII). For that to happen, the 7DII will have to have a much higher frame rate and good AF performance, so...

The 60D and the 7D have the same MP, so I'm guessing 20.2MP, 10+ FPS with 5DIII/1DX AF-lite (smaller sensor means smaller AF module, which means fewer points and/or with smaller baselines). DR and ISO similar to 70D, but maybe a smidge better, but it still won't come close to matching FF performance. If it comes in at 8 FPS, then the difference is not big enough to entice 5DIII owners.

To keep the FPS up, I wouldn't be surprised the MP remains at 18MP. 18MP is still a much higher density compared to FF, so there is you "reach", and to keep the same battery, 18MP is a lot easier to process than 20+ MP at 10+ FPS. If the MP remains at 18MP, then I'd expect the 7DII to have slightly better high ISO performance than the 70D, but still much lower than FF.

How well two cameras pair is very important to people invested in the Canon system and on a tight budget like me. A 5D-III + 7D-II pairing sounds promising.

I also agree that 8fps may not be enough to entice enough 5D-III owners on day one. If that were the case I would wait for a year-end price-drop.

In my "simulations" I considered various scenarios and for me 16Mpx seems to hold the most promise. With a 4920 x 3280 sensor you have 16.1Mpx which is respectable for stills. (In the same ballpark as 1D-IV, Nikon D4s and Panasonic GH-4) Also from a video perspective it is sufficient for UWA-TV 4K with a 1.07x horizontal crop factor, which will give pretty much the same field of view you have when shooting stills. Also it allows UHD 4K with a 1.3x crop factor. This would be awesome for wildlife video as the crop factors would stack. (e.g. 250mm x 1.6 x 1.3 = 520mm.) I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the ability to pull a perfect still frame from 4K is intriguing. Also as you said with lower res (larger pixels) we have the best chance at achieving some moderate high ISO noise improvement.

 

[Steve]

Must haves or Canon wont get any of my precious precious moneys:

Integrated grip
Articulated touch screen
Pop up flash
Direct Print button
EVF with Eye Control
RealTree Advantage Max4tm body coating
A sensor that photographs my imagination and dreams
Lasers

Optional:

Helmet with mounting bracket so I can hang the camera directly in front of my face and literally never move my eye from the viewfinder, even while having a snack/bathroom break. Can't risk missing any action!

 

[StudentOfLight]

Re: re

...IMO, the most critical thing that absolutely must be present is an appreciable increase in IQ / reduced noise.

...we need better noise performance at reasonable ISO's from 1000+ which is commonly needed for wildlife shooting.

... I will be ecstatic if there is increased IQ / reduced noise.

...If, on top of an IQ increase, they could squeeze a few more MP in, I would not complain.

Welcome to CR! I wholeheartedly agree, and voted 'other'. The only specs that matter to me are related to IQ and FPS, so my wishlist is limited to:

1-2 stops better high ISO performance over the 7D (even at the expense of resolution if necessary), and

12-16 FPS (yes, equal or better than the 1Dx).

Before you label me as heretic, I would like to underline that achieving a speed equal or even better than the 1Dx in an APS-C-sized DSLR represent a much smaller engeneering effort than that required for FF since the mass of moving parts (mirror and shutter) involved is approx 1/3 of a FF camera, so much less inertia and, consequently, less energy required. This is entirely possible, and concern about possibly eating the flagship's sales is BS: I imagine a lot of 1Dx owners buying a 7DII to complement their flagship. Plus, amateurs like me, who cannot afford (or justify) the financial effort for a 1Dx and related big white glass, could finally deal seriously with sports and wildlife for less than half the cost of FF. In addition, should Canon lose a bunch of 1Dx sales, that would be largely compensated by selling other Canon gear in the form of 7DII.

On a side note, the high MP option of APS-C is already here: it's called 70D, and at this point, given the turnover of the xxD line, the 80D is not even so far away after all.

I did consider high ISO and if there are serious sensor advancements then at most we could expect 2/3 of a stop improvement over the 7D (i.e. 1/3 of a stop improvement over the 70D.) The biggest gains in IQ might only be seen in low ISO dynamic range and color sensitivity given that the appropriate technologies are implemented. I think looking for 1-2 stops improvement in high ISO is expecting a little too much from the APS-C format. Anyway, I deliberately left ISO performance out of the intro to this thread as I think the real advancements will lie in other areas of imaging performance.

I agree that the 7D-II wouldn't kill true 1D-X sales. I think that Canon would rather sell a camera profitably today than wait for someone who might or might not buy a 1D-X (new or 2nd hand) at a later date. Also, the fact that it's not a 1D-X means that if what the user truly needed was a 1D-X thgen they will need to get it later anyway.

I also fully agree that the 7D-II would be complement to the other cameras in the range. Pairing it with a full frame 6D, 5D-III or 1D-X should make sense and I think it will be spec'ed accordingly.

 

[dgatwood]

Re: re

I did consider high ISO and if there are serious sensor advancements then at most we could expect 2/3 of a stop improvement over the 7D (i.e. 1/3 of a stop improvement over the 70D.) The biggest gains in IQ might only be seen in low ISO dynamic range and color sensitivity given that the appropriate technologies are implemented. I think looking for 1-2 stops improvement in high ISO is expecting a little too much from the APS-C format. Anyway, I deliberately left ISO performance out of the intro to this thread as I think the real advancements will lie in other areas of imaging performance.

Depends on how radically you're willing to change the sensor design. With current designs, there are some small wins like back-illuminated sensors that net you a few extra percent, but that's probably about the limit. But with a radical rethink, I think two stops is probably doable.

Right now, each pixel area consists of a cluster of four subpixels, two of which are green, one of which is red, and one of which is blue. For an arbitrary white light source, this means that only half of the green light that hits a pixel actually reaches the color filter for a green subpixel, and only 25% of the red and blue light reaches the color filter for a red or blue subpixel.

To compound the problem, the filter itself causes additional light loss. Only about 50–70% of light of a given color makes it through the filter (depending on the filter design). Multiply that by the 25% that actually reaches the right filter, and a red or blue subpixel could see as little as 12.5% of the red light hitting the pixel as a whole. That's three stops of light loss from the Bayer filter alone.

If each subpixel uses a diffraction-based detector to distinguish the color of light rather than a filter (e.g. Panasonic's Bayer-filter-free sensor design), you should easily get way more than a whole stop of additional light gathering.

 

[TexPhoto]

As a sports shooter I am very interested in this camera. My current 7D, a back-up to my 1D4 is a 4 year old workhorse with about 250K clicks.

If we had a significant upgrade to the 1DX like 14-15 fps, then I could see 11-12 fps.

I would love an integrated vertical grip, but can't see that. It would scare off some people and the profit from an add-on grip has got to be significant.

There has got to be some unique holy shirt feature. Maybe 120fps 1080p video or live iPad view/control.

 

[scott_m]

It seems that the "formula" for a 7DII is pretty widely agreed-upon; it would be surprising if it were not after all this time speculating, combined with the well-understood purpose of the original.

I think we can count on frame rate and RAW buffer to not disappoint.

I'd be surprised if the pop-up flash got deleted, particularly as it could be used as a radio/IR trigger.

Losing the mode dial would not be a surprise. I would like to see the rear controls align with those on the 5DIII - either layout works fine in isolation but I find it jarring to switch between them (IMO).

So here's my personal take FWIW:

- frame rate / RAW buffer will be fast/huge (how's that for playing it safe!)
- ultra-shot VF blackout time / uprated shutter (not necessary but would be nice)
- pop-up flash, will have RF/IR commander function
- 5DIII AF (this one has to be just about a given - I find it hard to believe there will be an all-new system)
- dual-pixel AF
- dual card slots (CF + CF please!!!)
- textured rubber grip on the card door like 5DIII (I know, this is minor, but it sure feels nice in the hand )
- LP-E6 battery
- true "quiet mode" like 5DIII (unlikley I know but it'd be sweet...)
- wi-fi / GPS (don't care but I assume it will be there)
- latest-and-greatest CPU for main functions, separate CPU for AF
- fixed rear screen. Whether it will be a touch screen is a good question

I think it's safe to assume the high-ISO performance will be slightly better than the 70D. Where will it be WRT dynamic range? I dunno but it better be real good - this is one area that Canon has been hammered with (justifiably or not) for quite a while now. But what I really, really want to see is an end to fixed pattern noise / striping / whatever you want to call it:

I run into this from time to time and it bugs the heck out of me.

my 0.02
Scott