Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[privatebydesign]

Seems like Neuro got us a really great idea to exploit ;D

ND grands are awesome btw. Tried them first time last Sat and was very impressed.

A lot of stuff is on first use, wait until you have used them more and hit their limitations regularly. They suck 95% of the time they are inflexible and have several severe limitations, put the fact that blending gives a much better result 95% of the time and they look like a very poor investment.

People interested in knockout landscape images are far better spending $20-40 on a blending program/plugin than three to ten times that on ND grads.

I have and use NDs (non-grad) frequently, up to 10-stop and all round/screw-in. I had a Lee setup for use with grad NDs for a while, used it a few times initially, sold it a while back. The guy who bought the kit from me brought his camera to try it out – it was a Sony a7R II. ;D

I was looking at a program, https://sites.google.com/site/longexposurestacker/ over the weekend that gives different options for the long exposure ND style image. I got there via the well reviewed companion app https://sites.google.com/site/starrylandscapestacker/home .

One of the main draws for the programs is the cost and size issues we have now with such extreme lenses. Don't see how we can ever get around the polarizer filter though, funnily enough that is the only one I now carry.

 

[hbr]

I, for one. did not cancel my preorder.

Every new Camera from Canon that I have purchased has always been better than the previous model.
Each new camera out of the box has worked as expected and kept on working.
Why would Canon change that now? I am very skeptical of this information and am quite sure he has not seen a production RAW file yet.

Brian

 

[Loswr]

I was looking at a program, https://sites.google.com/site/longexposurestacker/ over the weekend that gives different options for the long exposure ND style image. I got there via the well reviewed companion app https://sites.google.com/site/starrylandscapestacker/home .

One of the main draws for the programs is the cost and size issues we have now with such extreme lenses. Don't see how we can ever get around the polarizer filter though, funnily enough that is the only one I now carry.

Not going to help blur passersby out of an image, which is one of my main uses for a 10-stop ND. That can also be done in post with multiple short exposures, but I find the ND to be the easier solution.

 

[privatebydesign]

Not going to help blur passersby out of an image, which is one of my main uses for a 10-stop ND. That can also be done in post with multiple short exposures, but I find the ND to be the easier solution.

Yes the program does remove passersby, it is just a glorified multiple short exposure blending program with mean and median options.

Now I am using the 11-24 more than the TS-E17 I can't find myself willing to go the filter route, though on first look the rear mount ND's looked interesting I'm not sure how that would actually translate to real world use with focus etc.

We all find our own solutions to these issues but few would argue my original point, ND grads are often scene limited and 'better' results can more often than not be achieved more cheaply with blending techniques.

 

[Jopa]

Seems like Neuro got us a really great idea to exploit ;D

ND grands are awesome btw. Tried them first time last Sat and was very impressed.

A lot of stuff is on first use, wait until you have used them more and hit their limitations regularly. They suck 95% of the time they are inflexible and have several severe limitations, put the fact that blending gives a much better result 95% of the time and they look like a very poor investment.

I didn't notice any limitations... I tried blending in PhotoShop and ND grads, both work perfectly together. ND grads work especially well combined with "big stoppers", when you don't have much time for multiple exposures (each exposure takes a few min, and every minute is critical during sunsets/sunrises).

 

[Jopa]

Seems like Neuro got us a really great idea to exploit ;D

ND grands are awesome btw. Tried them first time last Sat and was very impressed.

A lot of stuff is on first use, wait until you have used them more and hit their limitations regularly. They suck 95% of the time they are inflexible and have several severe limitations, put the fact that blending gives a much better result 95% of the time and they look like a very poor investment.

People interested in knockout landscape images are far better spending $20-40 on a blending program/plugin than three to ten times that on ND grads.

What program would you recommend for that price?

I use RayaPro, it costs $44.99 now and is a PS plugin.

http://www.shutterevolve.com/raya-pro-the-ultimate-digital-blending-workflow-panel-for-photoshop/

Mind you, there isn't a thing it does you can't do 'longhand' in PS, but it is a real timesaver. Look at some of his tutorials on YouTube, he normally explains how todo it with the plugin and without.

Why would anyone buy a special plugin, if all it takes is to add a gradient mask and adjust it slightly with a brush for a perfect blending? As long as you keep paying for CC subscription monthly...

Anyway folks, seems like GND and blending solve all DR issues (if they really exist).

 

[bholliman]

But, my point is simply this: If (and it is a big "if" that is currently fueled only by internet rumors) the 5DIV sensor outperforms the 6DII sensor, why on earth would anyone find it surprising? After all, the 5DIV is the more expensive camera. Would anyone expect a car manufacturer to put a superior engine in its budget model and a weaker engine in its premium model?

You make perfect sense from the good-better-best market segmentation perspective: the 5D4 logically should have a better sensor than a 6D2 in general terms.
But on base ISO DR, Canon of late has simply been putting in the latest gen of tech in there -- not everywhere, but certainly once you leave Rebel territory. The 1DX2 / 5D4 / 80D (and I believe EOS M5/M6?) all got the 'on chip ADC bump' over its predecessor. Why wouldn't the 6D2 be afforded that same courtesy?
I don't see that as 'the 6D1 sensor outperformed the 5D3 sensor so that always should be true' sort of entitlement, I see it as Canon has upped it's base ISO DR game and every camera should eventually reap that benefit. So -- if this somehow turns out to be true with production 6D2s (and we are not there yet) -- the news would be much more about a 6D2 not getting the 'on chip bump' over the 6D1 than anything to do with the 5D4.

No disagreement. The 6DII should (and I expect that it does) have on chip ADC and the resultant improvements over its predecessor. As I stated, if it should turn out that it doesn't have some improvement over the original 6D, that would be a logical basis for complaints or as least disappointment. Even the models prior to on-chip ADC improved from generation to generation (7d vs. 7D II is a good example). So, I would be sympathetic to the complainers if that turned out to be the case. I'm just dismissing that possibility as I don't find it credible in the least and instead focusing on those who will cry "crippling" if they don't get a better sensor in the 6DII than that in the 5DIV. Those are the whiners that will find no sympathy from me.

+1

 

[bholliman]

What program would you recommend for that price?

I use RayaPro, it costs $44.99 now and is a PS plugin.

http://www.shutterevolve.com/raya-pro-the-ultimate-digital-blending-workflow-panel-for-photoshop/

Mind you, there isn't a thing it does you can't do 'longhand' in PS, but it is a real timesaver. Look at some of his tutorials on YouTube, he normally explains how todo it with the plugin and without.

+1 I use RayaPro and love it, excellent plug-in and value.

 

[StudentOfLight]

https://youtu.be/jv26s0BHKuQ?t=2m10s

#MarketingGuy

 

[privatebydesign]

Why would anyone buy a special plugin, if all it takes is to add a gradient mask and adjust it slightly with a brush for a perfect blending? As long as you keep paying for CC subscription monthly...

Anyway folks, seems like GND and blending solve all DR issues (if they really exist).

Wow, that isn't all it takes!

Ever take a picture with reflections, a horizon and vertical elements like trees/cliffs/people/buildings/etc etc? How about out of or into a cave/doorway/window/etc etc? Or even just include any of those elements? Anything with irregularly illuminated objects in it?

Blending is a very very powerful tool, it has probably done more to push image quality than any and all sensor development in the last six years. Post processing capabilities and techniques have vastly outstripped camera development in this area for years, anybody looking for improvements in low iso IQ 'static' subjects need look no further than post processing programs.

That doesn't mean there haven't been huge improvements in camera development, high iso capabilities, higher iso invariance, auto focus, frame rates, customization, etc etc have all added to the toolbox of capabilities, but the biggest area of IQ improvements for low iso landscape style work has been in post processing.

 

[privatebydesign]

I didn't notice any limitations...

keep using them, you will.

 

[Jopa]

Ever take a picture with reflections, a horizon and vertical elements like trees/cliffs/people/buildings/etc etc? How about out of or into a cave/doorway/window/etc etc? Or even just include any of those elements? Anything with irregularly illuminated objects in it?

Manual blending is a process of stacking multiple layers together with masking / unmasking certain elements. If some elements don't have a desired look in any of the available layers, that won't be blending, but something else. Good quality blending will take more time compared to GND+some dodging/burning.

Blending is a very very powerful tool, it has probably done more to push image quality than any and all sensor development in the last six years. Post processing capabilities and techniques have vastly outstripped camera development in this area for years, anybody looking for improvements in low iso IQ 'static' subjects need look no further than post processing programs.

100% agree. Now you can even simulate shallow DoF in PP, so no need to use fast lenses anymore The only problem - it takes a lot of time to process the image correctly otherwise it'll look like cheap fake

 

[Jopa]

I didn't notice any limitations...

keep using them, you will.

Large objects going to the sky could be a problem, even with soft GNDs, but otherwise it's pure profit! Yeah, we shall see, I'll keep you posted.

 

[Jopa]

I was looking at a program, https://sites.google.com/site/longexposurestacker/ over the weekend that gives different options for the long exposure ND style image. I got there via the well reviewed companion app https://sites.google.com/site/starrylandscapestacker/home .

One of the main draws for the programs is the cost and size issues we have now with such extreme lenses. Don't see how we can ever get around the polarizer filter though, funnily enough that is the only one I now carry.

Not going to help blur passersby out of an image, which is one of my main uses for a 10-stop ND. That can also be done in post with multiple short exposures, but I find the ND to be the easier solution.

I didn't have time to play with my ND toys "in city", but it seems like it should take at least 4 minutes to completely eliminate people walking in the frame. How do you fight thermal noise then?

 

[Jopa]

Pretty good chart on long exposures:
www.bwvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Exposure-chartv1.1.jpg

 

[privatebydesign]

100% agree. Now you can even simulate shallow DoF in PP, so no need to use fast lenses anymore The only problem - it takes a lot of time to process the image correctly otherwise it'll look like cheap fake

Not true, just look at some of the tutorials on the link I provided. A ND Grad is a sledgehammer, great if you take pictures of railroad spikes, far too limited for much else.

 

[sebasan]

Seems like Neuro got us a really great idea to exploit ;D

ND grands are awesome btw. Tried them first time last Sat and was very impressed.

A lot of stuff is on first use, wait until you have used them more and hit their limitations regularly. They suck 95% of the time they are inflexible and have several severe limitations, put the fact that blending gives a much better result 95% of the time and they look like a very poor investment.

People interested in knockout landscape images are far better spending $20-40 on a blending program/plugin than three to ten times that on ND grads.

What program would you recommend for that price?

I use RayaPro, it costs $44.99 now and is a PS plugin.

http://www.shutterevolve.com/raya-pro-the-ultimate-digital-blending-workflow-panel-for-photoshop/

Mind you, there isn't a thing it does you can't do 'longhand' in PS, but it is a real timesaver. Look at some of his tutorials on YouTube, he normally explains how todo it with the plugin and without.

Ironically, the person who creates rayapro uses the nikon d810

 

[privatebydesign]

Ironically, the person who creates rayapro uses the nikon d810

An awful lot of landscapers do, it doesn't stop them wanting a more. Funny that the DRones never point that out...

He used to use a 5D MkII or III but moved to Nikon pre the 5DS/R due to the much higher MP and resolution numbers.

As I said, post processing is where the highest IQ is for this type of image the sensor is close to irrelevant, certainly DR is.

 

[Loswr]

I didn't have time to play with my ND toys "in city", but it seems like it should take at least 4 minutes to completely eliminate people walking in the frame. How do you fight thermal noise then?

In daytime, I'm usually in the 30-60 s range. It really depends on the scene and the people. At blue hour, around 3 min, but the biggest problem there is cyclists with lights.

 

[Khalai]

Just to stir the pot a bit more...

Today was another local hands-on with PREPRODUCTION 6D II camera (just a single one unfortunately for 20 people, that was like tentacle hentai, really...). I've had a little chat with Canon rep. He was not allowed to discuss details (NDA is still going), but he basically admitted that 6D II should be on par with 5D IV, sensor wise. There were some hints, that he is not allowed to discuss certain goodies about sensor - that really intrigued me. But in the end, I was told to wait for retail samples, which is what we all are doing I guess.

So I really hope he was right and we're about to be pleasantly surprised after this preliminary mumbo-jumbo. And if he's wrong, then Canon will disappoint me gravely and I'll be the first here to admit I was wrong and will openly criticize Canon for such move in 6D line...