Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market - Share your thoughts

[takesome1]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Evidently some of us are such simpletons that we can undestand our own needs and wants for camera gear, while simultaneously putting those needs into the larger context of the reality that we aren't making gear for ourselves, we depend on corporations to make it for us, and those corporations make decisions based on factors outside of our personal control.

But some of us live in our own little world where our own desires trump objective reality. Interestingly, that latter situation is one definition of insanity.

Sweet... That was it with words of wisdom for today?

Well, for anyone unable to grasp this simple fact, well-stated by Harv:

I suspect the folks at Canon know a lot more about how to provide return on investment to the shareholders than the OP, while keeping the customer well satisfied. If that was not the case, Canon would not have the market share they do. Period.

...those words of wisdom are falling on deaf ears. Or more properly put, an uncomprehending mind.

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Interesting you were able to work lemming's in to the conversation. It is a rare feat and one I haven't seen on the net before.

However the reference is similar to the OP's conclusions. It is a myth propagated by the media, where the OP is stating myths propagated by irrational forum posters.

"In 1958 Walt Disney produced "White Wilderness," part of the studio's "True Life Adventure" series. "White Wilderness" featured a segment on lemmings, detailing their strange compulsion to commit mass suicide.

According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corporation producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan style turntable."

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Evidently some of us are such simpletons that we can undestand our own needs and wants for camera gear, while simultaneously putting those needs into the larger context of the reality that we aren't making gear for ourselves, we depend on corporations to make it for us, and those corporations make decisions based on factors outside of our personal control.

But some of us live in our own little world where our own desires trump objective reality. Interestingly, that latter situation is one definition of insanity.

Sweet... That was it with words of wisdom for today?

Well, for anyone unable to grasp this simple fact, well-stated by Harv:

I suspect the folks at Canon know a lot more about how to provide return on investment to the shareholders than the OP, while keeping the customer well satisfied. If that was not the case, Canon would not have the market share they do. Period.

...those words of wisdom are falling on deaf ears. Or more properly put, an uncomprehending mind.

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Interesting you were able to work lemming's in to the conversation. It is a rare feat and one I haven't seen on the net before.

However the reference is similar to the OP's conclusions. It is a myth propagated by the media, where the OP is stating myths propagated by irrational forum posters.

"In 1958 Walt Disney produced "White Wilderness," part of the studio's "True Life Adventure" series. "White Wilderness" featured a segment on lemmings, detailing their strange compulsion to commit mass suicide.

According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corporation producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan style turntable."

Yet you got the point... .

PS: We both know that whoever is even remotely criticizing Canon is an irrational forum poster... After all, they sell more units than everybody else!

 

[takesome1]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Yet you got the point...

You mean that beloved Disney threw lemming's off the side of a cliff for dramatic and artistic effect?
Yes that point is well taken.

When we are discussing Canon lagging behind, in this one situation it does not. The 1D series AF system and the big white lenses would be able to focus and catch the action of the lemmings plunging to their death better than their competitors.

Maybe we should also be discussing the areas where Canon (arguably) leads the market.

 

[romanr74]

I suspect the folks at Canon know a lot more about how to provide return on investment to the shareholders than the OP, while keeping the customer well satisfied.

As you stated correctly, you only "suspect"...

By the way, if the OP feels Canon is shortchanging him, he has the option of using products from Nikon, Fuji, Sony etc..

Very much so!

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Apparently you are unable to distinguish between people making purchasing decisions based on products with features that best meet their personal needs (and note that 'best meets' doesn't mean 'perfectly meets all needs and wants'), and 'following the herd'. Do you believe that if a product fails to meet your needs, then it doesn't meet anyone's needs?

I am always saddened to come across people with small, closed minds. But, like the reality of business goals and their impact on product development, I can accept that there are plenty of such people in the world.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Yet you got the point...

You mean that beloved Disney threw lemming's off the side of a cliff for dramatic and artistic effect?
Yes that point is well taken.

When we are discussing Canon lagging behind, in this one situation it does not. The 1D series AF system and the big white lenses would be able to focus and catch the action of the lemmings plunging to their death better than their competitors.

Maybe we should also be discussing the areas where Canon (arguably) leads the market.

The thing that bugs me in this forum, is that people who want to discuss areas where they feel Canon is lagging behind, are made to shut up by killer phrases like "they sell more units than everybody else. hence they are right. period." I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture. There are many areas where in my opinion Canon is blowing minds. And these are discussed here as well. Why is it not possible to have a reasonable discussion on where Canon might need to catch up with competitors?

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Apparently you are unable to distinguish between people making purchasing decisions based on products with features that best meet their personal needs (and note that 'best meets' doesn't mean 'perfectly meets all needs and wants'), and 'following the herd'. Do you believe that if a product fails to meet your needs, then it doesn't meet anyone's needs?

I am always saddened to come across people with small, closed minds. But, like the reality of business goals and their impact on product development, I can accept that there are plenty of such people in the world.

Not sure you realized, but there was not a single mention about my needs! You fantasize into my statements again... I'm always saddened to come across people who are so occupied with themselves that they are not capable (to even try) to understand what someone else is stating...

 

[takesome1]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Yet you got the point...

You mean that beloved Disney threw lemming's off the side of a cliff for dramatic and artistic effect?
Yes that point is well taken.

When we are discussing Canon lagging behind, in this one situation it does not. The 1D series AF system and the big white lenses would be able to focus and catch the action of the lemmings plunging to their death better than their competitors.

Maybe we should also be discussing the areas where Canon (arguably) leads the market.

The thing that bugs me in this forum, is that people who want to discuss areas where they feel Canon is lagging behind, are made to shut up by killer phrases like "they sell more units than everybody else. hence they are right. period." I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture. There are many areas where in my opinion Canon is blowing minds. And these are discussed here as well. Why is it not possible to have a reasonable discussion on where Canon might need to catch up with competitors?

"Catch Up" might be the sticking point. What is the measuring stick? In a capitalist market the measuring stick would probably be the number of units sold.

The title says it all "lags behind in the Market". Units sold and the dollar value mater if we are looking at the "Market".

Perhaps if the OP had posted this title "Canon's technology lags behind its competitors", then we could have the discussion you believe we should have.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Yet you got the point...

You mean that beloved Disney threw lemming's off the side of a cliff for dramatic and artistic effect?
Yes that point is well taken.

When we are discussing Canon lagging behind, in this one situation it does not. The 1D series AF system and the big white lenses would be able to focus and catch the action of the lemmings plunging to their death better than their competitors.

Maybe we should also be discussing the areas where Canon (arguably) leads the market.

The thing that bugs me in this forum, is that people who want to discuss areas where they feel Canon is lagging behind, are made to shut up by killer phrases like "they sell more units than everybody else. hence they are right. period." I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture. There are many areas where in my opinion Canon is blowing minds. And these are discussed here as well. Why is it not possible to have a reasonable discussion on where Canon might need to catch up with competitors?

"Catch Up" might be the sticking point. What is the measuring stick? In a capitalist market the measuring stick would probably be the number of units sold.

The title says it all "lags behind in the Market". Units sold and the dollar value mater if we are looking at the "Market".

Perhaps if the OP had posted this title "Canon's technology lags behind its competitors", then we could have the discussion you believe we should have.

Come on, you understood where he was trying to get!?

 

[NancyP]

Sensor could have more dynamic resolution. Otherwise the Canon DSLR line is pretty darn versatile for stills photographers, and it is hard to find lens categories not well served by Canon (or worth serving - Canon doesn't have an under $1,000.00 supertelephoto zoom, but why bother when the market is covered by Sigma (Contemporary) and Tamron 150 - 600 lenses).

I am not a video photographer and don't know the various brands' strengths and weaknesses.

Canon 85 f/1.2 seems to be used mostly as a specialty portrait lens with AF, and is 10 years old. Zeiss Milvus 85 f/1.4 is a very recent refresh of a prior design for a manual focus only lens. These lenses likely have different users in mind. I haven't used either. I can tell you that there will always be a market for portrait lenses that render well but may not have corner to corner sharpness. I know this because I look in the mirror - I am young-looking for my age, but nothing will give me the skin of a 20 year old again... ;D

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

Go read my posts again and try to understand them switching your fantasy off... yes?

PS: My post you selectively quoted was btw an attempt to pacify the discussion but you do not seem to be interested in that...

PPS: And NancyP just before did an attempt to bring the discussion back to the original topic - thank you!

 

[Maximilian]

It's fascinating all the time that when the Canon bashers get confronted with rational and more than less objective arguments they withdraw to the same subjective arguments like "fan boy", "must do better or be doomed" and so on.

Funny, that the Canon marketing and market model seems to work.
Funny, that in a free enterprise economy we customers have eventually just one scope of influence: to vote with our purse.
Funny, that some people still believe they could have an influence on that by posting on some internet fora.
Funny, they still believe that although market development and market share tells a different story throughout the last few years.

Of course I'd like Canon to built me my customized do-what-I-want camera, offer it to me for free and put a EF 600/4LII as givaway on top, but I am to rooted and realistic to know that this is further away form reality than we are from the big bang background noise. :

Summary:
If someone else has a better offer for you than Canon, please move on.
But please don't try to evangelize those who have a different point of view.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

Go read my posts again and try to understand them switching your fantasy off... yes?

PS: My post you selectively quoted was btw an attempt to pacify the discussion but you do not seem to be interested in that...

Why don't you read your own posts again. Then google the word 'metacognition'.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Yes it is simple minded. It is switching ones brain off and trusting that the masses will be right...

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

Go read my posts again and try to understand them switching your fantasy off... yes?

PS: My post you selectively quoted was btw an attempt to pacify the discussion but you do not seem to be interested in that...

Why don't you read your own posts again. Then google the word 'metacognition'.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Yes it is simple minded. It is switching ones brain off and trusting that the masses will be right...

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Neuro, you really didn't read them... or you didn't understand them. Where do you read from me that people "who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings"? What I wrote is that people who use "units sold" as their sole measure to justify buying canon to themselves, are simple minded. To me this is not quite the same. To you?

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

The thing that bugs me in this forum, is that people who want to discuss areas where they feel Canon is lagging behind, are made to shut up by killer phrases like "they sell more units than everybody else. hence they are right. period."

We come back (yet again) to what is meant by 'lagging behind'.
Every manufacturer has to make compromises in manufaturer of a product. And yes, I do mean 'every manfacturer'
The view of some (notably the videographers) seem to imagine that Canon could (some even insist, should) cover all grounds by exceeding the specs of every other competitor. A small number say that in not doing so Canon are committing commercial suicide, implying they know better than the number on manufacturer how to manufacture and sell cameras.

So the question is not what technology Canon must introduce but what compromises they need to make to meet the needs of the target market, not every tom dick and harry. It seems that you an others are unable to grasp that concept and when people say they are happy with the compromises Canon makes at that price point you decry them as being fanboys, small minded lemmings or unambitious.

Sony may make a wonderful videographers tool but there are distinct shortcomings in other areas notable AF as a working tool. Not to mention their after-sales service which, believe it or not, has to be funded by the sales price of cameras.
And given the financial reports of Sony, do you want to buy a fantastic product from a company whose finances continually raise concern or do you want a company with a long, and profitable history?
As I say, compromises.

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

Why is continually banging the drum about Canon's financial and technical incompetence any more fruitful than saying 'actually Canon are doing a lot of things right and their sales numbers provide evidence of that'?

There are many areas where in my opinion Canon is blowing minds. And these are discussed here as well. Why is it not possible to have a reasonable discussion on where Canon might need to catch up with competitors?

What I wrote is that people who use "units sold" as their sole measure to justify buying canon to themselves, are simple minded. To me this is not quite the same. To you?

We have not said that sales are justification for buying it. We said sales are evidence Canon is getting the technological balance right. Quite a different point.


I have n problem with people saying 'Canon could introduce these technologies'. What is irritating is then extending that to say by not incorporating [what I want] Canon is an incompetent business.

If you recall it was the OP who compared the specs of the C1300 and the specs of the N3400 and said the N3400 was a better entry level camera. We have merely pointed out that if it was a better camera why is is outsold by the C1300 - a question none of the Canon-knockers have even ventured to explain, sticking instead with their 'Canon is doomed to failure' mantra

Fruitful discussions need 2 participants.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

We have not said that sales are justification for buying it. We said sales are evidence Canon is getting the technological balance right. Quite a different point.

And I disagree! There is many (many) more factors which are relevant to market share and units sold than technological balance. Actually the overall "marketing approach" is far more relevant than the technological balance. The technological balance must not be off - and no-one is claiming that it is btw - but it is not the most decisive factor.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

Go read my posts again and try to understand them switching your fantasy off... yes?

PS: My post you selectively quoted was btw an attempt to pacify the discussion but you do not seem to be interested in that...

Why don't you read your own posts again. Then google the word 'metacognition'.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Yes it is simple minded. It is switching ones brain off and trusting that the masses will be right...

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Neuro, you really didn't read them... or you didn't understand them. Where do you read from me that people "who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings"? What I wrote is that people who use "units sold" as their sole measure to justify buying canon to themselves, are simple minded. To me this is not quite the same. To you?

In that case, you should apologize to all those people on CR forums who buy Canon gear solely because Canon sells lots of cameras and lenses. How many people is that, in your opinion? Certainly no one contributing to this thread. So, if your comments here aren't insulting, then they're completely irrelevant. Yet you felt the need to post them anyway. That says something about you, and not something flattering.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I believe the OP had nothing mean in mind when he started this discussion...

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I don't consider this a healthy and fruitful discussion culture.

So you believe it's helpful and fruitful contribute to the discussion culture by suggesting that people who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings?

:

Go read my posts again and try to understand them switching your fantasy off... yes?

PS: My post you selectively quoted was btw an attempt to pacify the discussion but you do not seem to be interested in that...

Why don't you read your own posts again. Then google the word 'metacognition'.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If for you guys it is satisfactory to know that Canon is selling the most units, for you to justify to yourself to stick to Canon, this is wonderful for you... Apparently not everybody is such a simple mind...

Yes it is simple minded. It is switching ones brain off and trusting that the masses will be right...

You're getting ever more credible as a discerning customer, my dear lemming. Canon is very happy to have you guys...

Neuro, you really didn't read them... or you didn't understand them. Where do you read from me that people "who choose to buy Canon gear are small-minded lemmings"? What I wrote is that people who use "units sold" as their sole measure to justify buying canon to themselves, are simple minded. To me this is not quite the same. To you?

In that case, you should apologize to all those people on CR forums who buy Canon gear solely because Canon sells lots of cameras and lenses. How many people is that, in your opinion? Certainly no one contributing to this thread. So, if your comments here aren't insulting, then they're completely irrelevant. Yet you felt the need to post them anyway. That says something about you, and not something flattering.

Neuro you're pathetic...