Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market - Share your thoughts

[dak723]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

If you recall it was the OP who compared the specs of the Canon 1300 and the specs of the Nikon 3400 and said the Nikon 3400 was a better entry level camera.

If the OP had taken 5 minutes of internet research, he would have realized that these are not comparable cameras. The Canon 1300D is their "earlier generation" camera that is repackaged as a new budget model. The latest entry level rebel is the 750D. So it is hard to take seriously this particular effort to put down Canon and claim it is lagging behind.

Why do some of us criticize this type of thread? I can only speak for myself, of course, but this type of thread is nothing more than an opportunity to whine. I do not want to listen to whiners who then claim they just are looking for discussion. This is not discussion. Discussion would take the same topic and put it this way:

I am comparing the Canon 750d and the Nikon 3400. I see some areas where the Nikon seems to have better tech. Is there anyone out there who has used both cameras and could compare the two in terms of real-life use?

That's how you begin a discussion.

As for the endless whining....Why? You do realize that this is not a forum affiliated in any way, don't you? You do realize that cameras are not made for YOU specifically, don't you? You do realize that only children whine about what they can't have - adults deal with it and make decisions to get the best possible alternative. If that means choosing a different camera company, that's the sensible thing to do. Whining on an internet forum is NOT the sensible thing to do. Dwelling on the negative is not healthy nor productive. Dwelling on the negative has a negative effect on others. Dwelling on the negative is unfair to newcomers to the forum looking for real advice who want a fair review of what's available. Funny how we criticize folks at DPReview or DXO for being biased while the negative comments here are biased beyond measure.

 

[Sporgon]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

We have not said that sales are justification for buying it. We said sales are evidence Canon is getting the technological balance right. Quite a different point.

And I disagree! There is many (many) more factors which are relevant to market share and units sold than technological balance. Actually the overall "marketing approach" is far more relevant than the technological balance. The technological balance must not be off - and no-one is claiming that it is btw - but it is not the most decisive factor.

It seems to me that both yourself and the OP are suggesting Canon shouldn't put a camera into the bottom of the dslr market at (English) £289 because it is theoretically less advanced than one from another company that costs £399. I think there would be quite a few people that can only afford £289 who would disagree with you.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

...

Neuro you're pathetic...

I believe the OP had nothing mean in mind when he started this discussion...

But obviously you did when you entered this discussion...and you've followed through on that intent with vigor.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Has Dilbert morphed?

Jack

 

[StudentOfLight]

Attached is a market snapshot for high-end full-frame interchangeable-lens cameras as of earlier this month. Class-leading features are highlighted dark green, features close to being class-leading are highlighted light green and disadvantages are highlighted in red.
(Apologies for any errors/omissions)

With the spread of colors I think it is obvious that no camera in the market is perfect.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Boy, was that as much work as it appears. Good presentation.

Just watch the news and consider how fortunate we are to be able to debate the shortcomings in this fancy gear we all have rather than having to worry if we'll be bombed tonight.

I'd like to see a thread where every aspect of the DSLR shortcomings is clearly delineated by illustrative photos but alas I suspect that many posters would have little to show. Armchair quarterbacks? Come on folk, post your photos that illustrate that canon technology is poor, incapable of delivering a good photo.

I think the many threads of photos being posted daily clearly show otherwise.

Jack

 

[ritholtz]

Attached is a market snapshot for high-end full-frame interchangeable-lens cameras as of earlier this month. Class-leading features are highlighted dark green, features close to being class-leading are highlighted light green and disadvantages are highlighted in red.
(Apologies for any errors/omissions)

With the spread of colors I think it is obvious that no camera in the market is perfect.

Sony suppose to be winning these spec sheet / chart comparisons by a distance. Surprised it didn't happen.

 

[Don Haines]

Boy, was that as much work as it appears. Good presentation.

Just watch the news and consider how fortunate we are to be able to debate the shortcomings in this fancy gear we all have rather than having to worry if we'll be bombed tonight.

I'd like to see a thread where every aspect of the DSLR shortcomings is clearly delineated by illustrative photos but alas I suspect that many posters would have little to show. Armchair quarterbacks? Come on folk, post your photos that illustrate that canon technology is poor, incapable of delivering a good photo.

I think the many threads of photos being posted daily clearly show otherwise.

Jack

OK..... here are three examples of how poor Canon Cameras are.

In the first image, it is obvious that the Canon camera has insufficient dynamic range to capture the sun and the shadows on the back of the tree, and the automatic exposure setting just picked the centre and did not pick an artistic setting....

In the second picture, despite being at sunset and shooting at a 30th of a second, when this heron unexpectedly flew past, the AF system was unable to keep the bird in perfect focus.

The third picture is also an AF problem. Despite the subject being inside the minimum focus distance of the lens, the camera refused to lock on the rodent and instead choose the decking behind it...

Seriously though? Bad pictures? Any camera can take bad pictures.... Any photographer can take bad pictures... Don't make me bring out my iPhone

 

[unfocused]

Attached is a market snapshot for high-end full-frame interchangeable-lens cameras as of earlier this month...

This reminds me that we all ought to thank either nature or the divinity of our choice for creating obsessive compulsive people. Well done!

 

[Jack Douglas]

Hey Don, you came through with flying colors.

It reminds me of my woodworking that just doesn't compare with that done by many pros. It also reminds me of some of my past bodywork and painting that exceeded what comes out of most body shops. My tools are just run of the mill. There are the tools and then there are the craftsmen and of course this is nothing new. Being new to this hobby I have always blamed myself for my photographic failings but CR is starting to change that and now I'm getting GAS too!

Still, I think it would be enlightening to have example photos show what the various complaints are relating to.

Jack

 

[neuroanatomist]

Don't make me bring out my iPhone

It has a Sony sensor. Gotta be better.

 

[Refurb7]

Where does Canon fall behind the competition?
....

Might be a fail vs the D750 but will leave that to you guys. Remember this is not ''what I want from Canon'', it's where are they failing behind rivals?

I don't care about any of that stuff. Canon does what I need. I'm not going to spend any time analyzing the camera market, who is falling behind in some detail or other, etc. Analyzing the camera market is neither my job nor my hobby. Happy to let other people spend their time on that.

But I will comment about Canon's alleged lack of interest in video. FWIW, every wedding videographer that I see uses Canon. I see about a dozen wedding videographers at work each year. They all use Canon. All of them. I can't even remember a time when I saw one not using Canon.

 

[Maximilian]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Attached is a market snapshot for high-end full-frame interchangeable-lens cameras as of earlier this month.
...

Thank you for bringing back real arguments! (although the OP was focused more on the entry level )

Sony suppose to be winning these spec sheet / chart comparisons by a distance. Surprised it didn't happen.

No surprise!!! Because that is reality.

But it is already surprising how much those "Sony is so much better! Canon is doomed!" folks have already changed the perspective of others just by repeating their mantra over and over again.
This is how spin doctors and opinion formers work and this is how it is possible that lies become truth - at least in the brains of the masses.

So sad but true, that intelligence decreases with the number of people in a group.

Edit, searching for a positive ending:
Try to stay friendly, try to stay objective.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

...

Neuro you're pathetic...

I believe the OP had nothing mean in mind when he started this discussion...

But obviously you did when you entered this discussion...and you've followed through on that intent with vigor.

Absolutely Neuro, in sharp contrast to you : ! Little hypochrist maybe?

The usual crap spouted by those with the business acumen of a bowling ball...

But some of us live in our own little world where our own desires trump objective reality. Interestingly, that latter situation is one definition of insanity.

Or more properly put, an uncomprehending mind.

I am always saddened to come across people with small, closed minds. But, like the reality of business goals and their impact on product development, I can accept that there are plenty of such people in the world.

Then google the word 'metacognition'.

That says something about you, and not something flattering.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

We have not said that sales are justification for buying it. We said sales are evidence Canon is getting the technological balance right. Quite a different point.

And I disagree! There is many (many) more factors which are relevant to market share and units sold than technological balance. Actually the overall "marketing approach" is far more relevant than the technological balance. The technological balance must not be off - and no-one is claiming that it is btw - but it is not the most decisive factor.

It seems to me that both yourself and the OP are suggesting Canon shouldn't put a camera into the bottom of the dslr market at (English) £289 because it is theoretically less advanced than one from another company that costs £399. I think there would be quite a few people that can only afford £289 who would disagree with you.

I don't know where you read that suggestion from me...

 

[StudentOfLight]

Market snapshot for 5D-III (when there was basically no competition)

 

[Antono Refa]

2- 50mm and 85mm lenses.

Canon were always said to be bought for their superior lenses but now, two of the most important key lenses for photography are surpassed by other manufacturers. Leaving the Canon 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.2 L two over-priced and low quality lenses. (This is in relation to Sigma ART lenses and Sony Batis lenses, etc)

This claim is wrong for three reasons:

1. The uber 50mm f/1.4s (Sigma Art, Zeiss Otus, Sigma 58mm f/1.4G) are not in the same class as the EF 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.2

The EF 50mm f/1.4 is a $350 lens. The uber 50mm f/1.4s are in the $1000-$1500 bracket.

The EF 50mm f/1.2 is a portraiture lens. The uber 50mm f/1.4s are sharpness lenses.

Your comparison is apples to oranges. The ubers are in a new spot, and Canon hasn't made a lens in that spot yet.

2. Canon has plenty of lenses the competitors haven't answered yet, e.g. MP-E 65mm 5x macro lens, TS-E 17mm, and EF 11-24mm.

Its fun saying "canon is behind is this lens", and forget that "the competitors are behind on this lens".

3. You're looking at how things are *now*.

Canon has upgraded a lot of lenses in recent years, e.g. the 24mm-28mm-35mm primes, the 24-105mm kit, the super-teles, etc.

Wait a year, see whether Canon catches up with those two lenses. You can't? Buy Nikon, and remember it works both ways - the EF 11-24mm f/4 is ~18 months old, the TS-E 17mm is 7 years old, and the MP-E 65mm is 17 years old.

 

[AvTvM]

re. mirrorslappers Canon and Nikon are almost even, except delta in DR - where Canon has achieved progress to catch up with the last few models.

Canon's is lagging in 2 major areas in (stills imaging) product lineup:
1. still NO full frame mirrorless system (like Nikon, unlike Sony)
2. not enough push in APS-C mirrorless.
a) middle-clas camera with EVF comes extremely late. M5 was overdue for at least 3 years. Had Canon launched it in late 2012, Fuj X-system would have probably sold only 50% of the units they did sell during these years.
b) EF-M lenses. All fine and dandy, but short tele is still missing: EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM. And they could certainly also have added a EF-M 50/1.8 STM IS and a EF-M 35/2.0 STM pancake by now and sold a good number.

Other than lagging, I see two major areas of opportunity where Canon is not leading, not fully leveraging unique technological trump cards:
1. RT wireless flash system - first to market, works quite well and reliable ... BUT ...
a) Canon is still not including RT-commander in cameras - should have done so ever since since 5D3/7D II. Different radio frequency laws etc. could be handled exactly as with WiFi - by geographical locks/unlocks of frequencies via firmware.
b) no small and affordable RT-receiver - to integrate customer's 580EX II's / 430EX II's and studio strobes in radio wireless RT-setups. Now companioes like Phottix are doing the latter. That could all be sales for Canon and keeping their customers happy and in their own eco-system.
c) failure to sell an RT commander with AF assist light
d) missing update of Canon wireless ETTL protocol to include 2nd curtain sync and remote (manual) control over speedlite zoom reflector.

2. Eye Control AF v2.0
not in in any digital Canon camera - neither DSLR nor mirrorless. Would be a major true USP. Highly useful to most customers and in all situations when shooting using viewfinder.


4k video? Use your iPhone or action cam. Or buy a video camera if your wannabe serious about video. Enough on the market.

 

[StudentOfLight]

2- 50mm and 85mm lenses.

Canon were always said to be bought for their superior lenses but now, two of the most important key lenses for photography are surpassed by other manufacturers. Leaving the Canon 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.2 L two over-priced and low quality lenses. (This is in relation to Sigma ART lenses and Sony Batis lenses, etc)

This claim is wrong for three reasons:

1. The uber 50mm f/1.4s (Sigma Art, Zeiss Otus, Sigma 58mm f/1.4G) are not in the same class as the EF 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.2

The EF 50mm f/1.4 is a $350 lens. The uber 50mm f/1.4s are in the $1000-$1500 bracket.

The EF 50mm f/1.2 is a portraiture lens. The uber 50mm f/1.4s are sharpness lenses.

Your comparison is apples to oranges. The ubers are in a new spot, and Canon hasn't made a lens in that spot yet.

2. Canon has plenty of lenses the competitors haven't answered yet, e.g. MP-E 65mm 5x macro lens, TS-E 17mm, and EF 11-24mm.

Its fun saying "canon is behind is this lens", and forget that "the competitors are behind on this lens".

3. You're looking at how things are *now*.

Canon has upgraded a lot of lenses in recent years, e.g. the 24mm-28mm-35mm primes, the 24-105mm kit, the super-teles, etc.

Wait a year, see whether Canon catches up with those two lenses. You can't? Buy Nikon, and remember it works both ways - the EF 11-24mm f/4 is ~18 months old, the TS-E 17mm is 7 years old, and the MP-E 65mm is 17 years old.

More novel options:
2011 - Canon EF 8-15mm f/4 L USM fisheye
2013 - Canon EF 200-400mm f/4 L IS USM (1.4x Int)
2014 - Canon EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM

And lets not forget to mention lightweight inexpensive options like:
1993 - Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM
1997 - Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L USM

 

[Antono Refa]

<snip>

Wait a year, see whether Canon catches up with those two lenses. You can't? Buy Nikon, and remember it works both ways - the EF 11-24mm f/4 is ~18 months old, the TS-E 17mm is 7 years old, and the MP-E 65mm is 17 years old.

More novel options:
2011 - Canon EF 8-15mm f/4 L USM fisheye
2013 - Canon EF 200-400mm f/4 L IS USM (1.4x Int)
2014 - Canon EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM

And lets not forget to mention lightweight inexpensive options like:
1993 - Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM
1997 - Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L USM

Or, put it another way...

You can buy a Sigma 50mm Art or Zeiss 50/85mm f/1.4 Otus for a Canon, and criticize Canon for lagging behind.

Or you could go buy an ultra wide zoom that goes to 11mm, or a 1-5X macro, or a 17mm perspective control lens, or a fisheye zoom for a Nikon camera, and... oh, you can't.

That might help explain why one of the two companies sells more than the other.