Any chance for a 7D Mark 'II+'?

[benkam]

Not the 7D Mark III but let's call it a Mark "II+" with two minor but noticeable and doable improvements Canon could make in the very near future, talking early 2017, features which should've been there in the first place.

1) a touchscreen! -- Once you've used one, it's hard to go back. Dual pixel AF deserves a touchscreen; also for pinch to zoom, swipe to review, to navigate menus. The 70D/80D and most recent Rebels have one, even the SL1/100D has a fixed touchscreen, why not the top-end 7D2?

2) built-in wi-fi -- Sure there's a quite cheap adapter available but it has meant giving up the SD slot and thus the dual card feature, so just put it in there.

Make this hypothetical 7D2+ available while they do R&D on wish list specs like a new sensor, maybe a faster drive that goes up to 12 fps, putting 4K in there, and all that for a full-blown Mark III. If Canon are planning a 7D3 release earlier than expected, then great. But, going by release cycles, as the 7D2 was released fairly recently (by Canon standards) in late 2014, with the original 7D in 2009, a Mark III could come as late as 2019, or at least late 2018. So in the meantime, just those two changes would make a 7D2+ a bit more future-proofed.

 

[Mikehit]

I don't think they'd put all the development work into a new model just to give it a touch screen and wifi especially as (in your own words) it would be 'a bit more future proofed'. If they are getting a MkIII then development will already be well advanced now and rushing something to market just for those enhancements would be a distraction. It is not a simple case of 'while we develop the full 7D3 we'll just throw out 7D2 MkII to keep the punters happy' - it is a major undertaking.
The reason 80D has a touch/pinch screen and the 7D2 does not is that the 80D was released about 18 months later.

If the 7D2 was anything to go by, the 7D3 will be ready when they have a clutch of significant things to put in it.
I suspect it will be mid to late 2018 (the 7D2 came out 2 and bit years after the 5D3).

If lack of a touch screen and wifi are the only thing wrong with the 7D2 it must be a bloody good camera.

 

[AlanF]

What it needs most is a new sensor. The present one isn't bad, and can give great results. But, a crop from the 5DS R is better in terms of sharpness and noise. Personally, I would not upgrade until they put in a new sensor without a low-pass filter. The filter is too aggressive on these pixel dense sensors, far more so than on the FF 5DIV and 5DIII.

 

[j-nord]

What it needs most is a new sensor. The present one isn't bad, and can give great results. But, a crop from the 5DS R is better in terms of sharpness and noise. Personally, I would not upgrade until they put in a new sensor without a low-pass filter. The filter is too aggressive on these pixel dense sensors, far more so than on the FF 5DIV and 5DIII.

Agreed the biggest issue with the 7DII, as a sports and wildlife body, is the sensor. Plenty of room to improve here when compared to newer Canon sensors. More m-pix, better ISO, better DR, and NOOO AA filter.

 

[benkam]

What it needs most is a new sensor. The present one isn't bad, and can give great results. But, a crop from the 5DS R is better in terms of sharpness and noise. Personally, I would not upgrade until they put in a new sensor without a low-pass filter. The filter is too aggressive on these pixel dense sensors, far more so than on the FF 5DIV and 5DIII.

Agreed the biggest issue with the 7DII, as a sports and wildlife body, is the sensor. Plenty of room to improve here when compared to newer Canon sensors. More m-pix, better ISO, better DR, and NOOO AA filter.

A new sensor is a Mark III-level upgrade. That'll be late 2018, possibly 2019, based on Canon's full version upgrades.

 

[Sabaki]

If anything, I'd put the AF system as the number 1 priority for a 7D mark iii.

Questions I would like answered is:
* Should a dedicated microchip handle ITR and other tracking aspects like colour/shape recognition
* Is a drag-n-drop of the full frame 61 point focus system really delivering or should they look at an APSC specific configuration
* Is more powerful battery needed to drive the lenses for optimum performance
* Auto focus points at f/8.0

Things like sensors, weather sealing and similar naturally improve from 1 generation to the next but it's the AF system that makes this the 1DX mini we all crave. There's just way too much proof out there showing the 7Dii's AF system is not as good as it should be.
Some of those who are not fans of the AF system include 1DX users who produce magnificent images with that body, yet struggle with their copy of the 7Dii

 

[benkam]

I don't think they'd put all the development work into a new model just to give it a touch screen and wifi especially as (in your own words) it would be 'a bit more future proofed'. If they are getting a MkIII then development will already be well advanced now and rushing something to market just for those enhancements would be a distraction. It is not a simple case of 'while we develop the full 7D3 we'll just throw out 7D2 MkII to keep the punters happy' - it is a major undertaking.

A new sensor, faster drive, integrating new Digic processors, 4K, just any *one* of those would be a major undertaking but I'm not asking for any of those in a "7D2+". Just that Canon-staple 3" 1.04M-dot touchscreen that has for a years been on all their other APS-C bodies except the top-end 7D2 and bottom-end 1200D/1300D. Plus throw in built-in wi-fi too, but the touchscreen foremost.

The reason 80D has a touch/pinch screen and the 7D2 does not is that the 80D was released about 18 months later.

The earlier 70D already had a touchscreen, released over a year before the 7D2. The entry-level SL1/100D and the t5i/700D were also released a year before and likewise came with touchscreens.

Now that the 5D4 has come with a touchscreen, Canon's engineers are out of excuses that they can't put a touchscreen in a weather-sealed body in 2017.

If lack of a touch screen and wifi are the only thing wrong with the 7D2 it must be a bloody good camera.

Oh yes, it is bloody good. Just with two annoyingly small but noticeable omissions, which if addressed would make it fully current as Canon's top-end crop body for the expected next couple more years while it's developing a Mark III.

Maybe a 7D Mark "II+" (again, not a full Mark III) patch upgrade in 2017 isn't so far-fetched as I now recall Canon when it made the change from the 650D to 700D, the biggest thing it added really was a touchscreen.

 

[Josh Denver]

650D to 700D upgrade was actually new body texture and a 360 degree spinning top dial plus live review of creative filters. So yes, Canon have made incredibly small updates as NEW models. The touchscreen was on the rebels since the 650D. It was the first Canon or DSLR to get it. An entry level feature that pros liked so it was scaled up the chain to 70D, 5D, 1D,

I didn't expect the 7DII to be the only line skipped, it should have been there since now it's on Canon's entire line up. 100D, 700d, 750D/760D, 80D, 5DIV, 1DXII.

If the camera lacked DPAF or had crappy video performance it'd have been fine by me. But that camera really needs DPAF touch, the 1080p on it is a lot cleaner than the newer 80D, 5DIV, 760D, which all have a stop more digital sharpening and aliasing, which is completely absent on the 7DII 1080p footage. It's really quite a great video camera and the only one in the price range that can be taken under harsh conditions and get any footage. Just needs touch AF to make a huge leap in a small upgrade.

Of course I do want it to have full sensor 4K DCI 422 Mjpeg and 1080p 120p but I know I'll have to wait for the 7D MKIII to get those.

 

[Mikehit]

A new sensor, faster drive, integrating new Digic processors, 4K, just any *one* of those would be a major undertaking but I'm not asking for any of those in a "7D2+". Just that Canon-staple 3" 1.04M-dot touchscreen that has for a years been on all their other APS-C bodies except the top-end 7D2 and bottom-end 1200D/1300D. Plus throw in built-in wi-fi too, but the touchscreen foremost.

So no real improvement than adding a touch screen all because you prefer it to spinning a couple of dials?

The earlier 70D already had a touchscreen, released over a year before the 7D2. The entry-level SL1/100D and the t5i/700D were also released a year before and likewise came with touchscreens.

Fair enough. But again, but it also comes down to which features to add within a price bracket. The 7D2 had a far superior AF system to the 70D and I know which I would prefer.
If it had been as simple as you make out, you have to ask 'so why didn't they?'. The argument about protecting product lines does not wash because the 1Dx and 5D3 at that time did not have a touch screen and if the market sector had said it would be a great idea they may well have done it.

Now that the 5D4 has come with a touchscreen, Canon's engineers are out of excuses that they can't put a touchscreen in a weather-sealed body in 2017.

Who is saying they can't. My point was that re-engineering the 7D2 to have a touchscreen is not improvement enough to justify a new model. Are you even aware of what is involved with changing something as fundamental as the LCD screen?
Just suppose they do have a 7DMk3 in early 2019 as you predict. They have not even announced a 7D2 with touchscreen so even if they announce it early 2017, are you suggesting that they bring that in mid 2017 and barely a year later have another new model? Who would buy it knowing that in barely a year they will have the option of full-fat 7D3 with other improved specifications? I wouldn't.


I am not saying a touch screen is not feasible (it clearly is). Nor am I saying I would not find a touch screen useful (I would). I just don't see them bringing out an interim 7D2 upgrade and I don't think it makes sense to do so.

 

[benkam]

Just suppose they do have a 7DMk3 in early 2019 as you predict. They have not even announced a 7D2 with touchscreen so even if they announce it early 2017, are you suggesting that they bring that in mid 2017 and barely a year later have another new model? Who would buy it knowing that in barely a year they will have the option of full-fat 7D3 with other improved specifications? I wouldn't.

Are you saying nobody would buy a "7D2+" with touchscreen if Canon somehow came out with it in 2017 because a 7D3 is expected in 2019? If so, in effect, you're also saying expect no sales for the 7D2 as-is, without touchscreen, because of the same anticipation.

We realistically expect the 7D2 as-is to continue selling some next year, so give it that small but noticeable improvement and why should people suddenly stop buying it? On the contrary, more people would probably buy a "7D2+" patch upgrade because not everybody who wants a camera like it can wait two more years for the 7D3.

 

[tron]

Just suppose they do have a 7DMk3 in early 2019 as you predict. They have not even announced a 7D2 with touchscreen so even if they announce it early 2017, are you suggesting that they bring that in mid 2017 and barely a year later have another new model? Who would buy it knowing that in barely a year they will have the option of full-fat 7D3 with other improved specifications? I wouldn't.

Are you saying nobody would buy a "7D2+" with touchscreen if Canon somehow came out with it in 2017 because a 7D3 is expected in 2019? If so, in effect, you're also saying expect no sales for the 7D2 as-is, without touchscreen, because of the same anticipation.

We realistically expect the 7D2 as-is to continue selling some next year, so give it that small but noticeable improvement and why should people suddenly stop buying it? On the contrary, more people would probably buy a "7D2+" patch upgrade because not everybody who wants a camera like it can wait two more years for the 7D3.

It will be a most useless upgrade mainly since there is already a cheap canon wifi card and you can always use a very high capacity/good quality Compact flash so there is no urgent reason for an sd card.

If there is a need for 7D2 is an upgrade of the sensor and the new f/8 AF system. Anything else is practically cosmetics...

Which means a new 7D3 would be more than welcome as soon as possible In the meantime 7D2 will do...

 

[runtmms]

I'm one of the ones really hoping for a 7D2 update sooner rather than later - be it a refresh or a full Mark III. While the current camera looks to be a great camera, spec wise it feels a little dated to be the 'top of the line crop sensor camera.' If you're someone who upgrades infrequently that is a bit of a tough sell.

The long product cycle is fine if there aren't big advancements. But it seems like that timeline should be evaluated based on the product advancements out there. Sensor quality has made a jump, AF, touch screens are fairly standard, as well as built in wi-fi. (The wi-fi card is a band-aid at best.) Not to mention everything else people have already listed in this thread. It starts adding up to a lot of little compromises now - can't imagine what it'll look like in 2 years. It seems more positioned as a sideways step when compared to the 80D, not a definitive step up.

Then consider the Nikon D500. Is Canon really going to let that go unanswered for another couple years?

I haven't been watching it very long, but it seems like there have been a lot of rebates and price fluctuations - any chance that is stock reduction to make room for the next flavor of 7D - or is it always like that?

I know it seems unlikely, but I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

 

[Mikehit]

Are you saying nobody would buy a "7D2+" with touchscreen if Canon somehow came out with it in 2017 because a 7D3 is expected in 2019? If so, in effect, you're also saying expect no sales for the 7D2 as-is, without touchscreen, because of the same anticipation.

We realistically expect the 7D2 as-is to continue selling some next year, so give it that small but noticeable improvement and why should people suddenly stop buying it? On the contrary, more people would probably buy a "7D2+" patch upgrade because not everybody who wants a camera like it can wait two more years for the 7D3.

The 7D2 has been through its drop in price, from 1600 GBP at launch to recent price of 1200 GBP. The 7D3 will probably launch at 1800 (maybe a bit more). If the 7D2+ as you suggest were to be launched it would have to be closer to the 1800 than 1200 with it being a new camera. That is quite a different proposition.
So not only do you have a price advantage of the 7D2 but psychologically, buying an existing body in 2017 knowing we are 18-24months from a new version is quite different from buying a new body design (refreshed or not) knowing that barely 2y later you will have a new one to choose from.
And the 7D2 will sell with or without the 'patch upgrade' so why would Canon do it?

How many people do you seriously think will sell their 7D2, losing money on it then for out for a new camera (probably an overall layout of several hundred pounds/dollars) simply to have a touch screen and WiFi?

Canon has enough problem from people whining about how their new bodies are not true advancements (including you if I recall your comments about the 5DIV) without pulling stunts like this.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Don't hold your breath. New models come out when one or both of the following has happened:

1. Sales has slowed to the point where it will pay back to introduce a upgrade.

2. Canon has advanced the technology enough to justify the huge cost of upgrading it. It is not just the cost to design and produce, but to advertise, stock, and risk buyer backlash for bumping the price for a minor upgrade.

The next model will follow the usual Canon formula, new sensor, new processor, new firmware with a few features thrown in. A new higher price as well.

 

[unfocused]

Yeah, this ain't happening.

The 70D already had a touch screen when the 7DII was introduced, and the 1DX II has very limited touch screen capability. Canon could have put a full featured touch screen in both bodies but chose not to. If they feel it was a mistake, we'll likely see a firmware upgrade for the 1DX II before we see a 7D 2.1, but I'm not holding out for either.

Canon gave the 7DII wireless capability with the new SD card, which is an admission of their mistake on that front and a recognition that they needed to do something.

Neither of those changes are sufficient to justify a new body no matter what it is called.

From what I've read, the 7DII sensor performs at higher ISOs just as well as the 80D sensor and since high ISO is the important thing for an action camera like the 7DII, I would think/hope that they will wait until they have a new sensor that performs slightly better at ISO 1600 and above.

As for autofocus, while I expect some improvement, I am confused by those who denigrate the autofocus capabilities of the 7DII. I've never had a problem with the 7D autofocus and just came back from a weekend of shooting the 7D II and the 1D X II side by side and autofocus is definitely not where the differences come into play.

What are the differences? Well, obviously noise is a bit better on the 1D X II and once you gotten used to 14 fps, 10 frames seem painfully slow (I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's true.)

However, I thinks it's a mistake to look at the incredibly long time between the 7D I and 7D II and assume a similar refresh period for the 7D III. There were unusual circumstances that delayed any upgrade. I would not be at all surprised to see a 7DIII near the end of 2017 or early in 2018.

My dream 7DII would not use the 24mp 80D sensor, but instead use an improved 20-24 mp sensor for better high ISO performance, crank up the frame rate to 12 fps, and have all the usual incremental improvements in focusing and weather sealing, along with a touchscreen, built in wifi/NFC and a few other new bells and whistles. If I need to wait awhile longer for sensor improvements, I can live with that.

 

[benkam]

650D to 700D upgrade was actually new body texture and a 360 degree spinning top dial plus live review of creative filters. So yes, Canon have made incredibly small updates as NEW models.

I stand corrected. Those are even smaller modifications than putting a new touchscreen and show Canon do make patch upgrade versions.

I've suggested Canon call this hypothetical touchscreen- and built-in wifi-enabled version a "Mark II+" instead of "Mark III" to temper expectations that it's not a full upgrade.

If the camera lacked DPAF or had crappy video performance it'd have been fine by me. But that camera really needs DPAF touch, the 1080p on it is a lot cleaner than the newer 80D, 5DIV, 760D, which all have a stop more digital sharpening and aliasing, which is completely absent on the 7DII 1080p footage. It's really quite a great video camera and the only one in the price range that can be taken under harsh conditions and get any footage. Just needs touch AF to make a huge leap in a small upgrade.

Agreed. DPAF deserves a touchscreen.

 

[unfocused]

650D to 700D upgrade was actually new body texture and a 360 degree spinning top dial plus live review of creative filters. So yes, Canon have made incredibly small updates as NEW models.

I stand corrected. Those are even smaller modifications than putting a new touchscreen and show Canon do make patch upgrade versions.

You can't compare Rebel refresh versions to XD models. Canon has to change up the Rebels on a continuous basis so that entry level consumers feel they are getting the "newest" models, even if there isn't much a difference.

 

[benkam]

The 7D2 has been through its drop in price, from 1600 GBP at launch to recent price of 1200 GBP. The 7D3 will probably launch at 1800 (maybe a bit more). If the 7D2+ as you suggest were to be launched it would have to be closer to the 1800 than 1200 with it being a new camera. That is quite a different proposition.

That's stacking the price argument a bit.

I'd look at it this way: I see the 7D2 is currently GBP 1380 at major UK retailers. Now, the 5D4 launched the same as the 5D3, so it would be reasonable to expect an interim update to the 7D2, being not even a 7D3, would at most top off at the 7D2's launch price of 1600 GBP. So there's the comparison for buyers: the 7D2 no touch, no wifi at 1380 GBP or a "7D2+" with touchscreen and wifi at 1600 GBP. Me personally and maybe some other would rather spend the extra 200 quid for the latter instead of never ever having a touchscreen and paying another 50 for a wifi adapter while losing the SD slot. YMMV.

If Canon do this in 2017, I'd expect them to try to clear stocks on the 7D2 and shift production to this "7D2+" until they release the 7D3 in late 2018 or even 2019.

 

[Mikehit]

The 7D2 has been through its drop in price, from 1600 GBP at launch to recent price of 1200 GBP. The 7D3 will probably launch at 1800 (maybe a bit more). If the 7D2+ as you suggest were to be launched it would have to be closer to the 1800 than 1200 with it being a new camera. That is quite a different proposition.

That's stacking the price argument a bit.

I'd look at it this way: I see the 7D2 is currently GBP 1380 at major UK retailers. Now, the 5D4 launched the same as the 5D3, so it would be reasonable to expect an interim update to the 7D2, being not even a 7D3, would at most top off at the 7D2's launch price of 1600 GBP. So there's the comparison for buyers: the 7D2 no touch, no wifi at 1380 GBP or a "7D2+" with touchscreen and wifi at 1600 GBP. Me personally and maybe some other would rather spend the extra 200 quid for the latter instead of never ever having a touchscreen and paying another 50 for a wifi adapter while losing the SD slot. YMMV.

If Canon do this in 2017, I'd expect them to try to clear stocks on the 7D2 and shift production to this "7D2+" until they release the 7D3 in late 2018 or even 2019.

Canon will not upgrade just for the touch screen. Even the 650D to 700D had a different sensor but the 7D is aimed at a far more discerning market - bringing in a new model whose only difference is a touch screen will be (rightly IMO) panned. Are you able to point to any manufacturer whose only reason to upgrade has been touchscreen facility? I very much doubt it.

You've made it quite clear in other discussions that you find flip-screens and touch screens to be a major issue for you. What you don't get is that others place those down the list of priorities and Canon do as well. I am pretty sure the 7D3 will have a touch screen but that will be an addition to other, more significant, upgrades. The way their sensors have developed I go with comments by unfocused that the 7D3 development cycle will be quicker than for the 7D2: if rumours at the time were correct, the 7D2 was actually delayed 8-9 months to introduce a better AF system and iron out other bugs so if you look at it that way the 7D3 could be much quicker than 2019.

 

[timmy_650]

I can't think of any model where canon has done this before Nikon has done it a bunch. So I think the chance is low seeing how it would be a canon Dslr first. I think you can make a good argument for it. That is why it is done by Sony and Nikon.