Any chance for a 7D Mark 'II+'?

[greger]

Mikehit, you may be right. I don't know the specs of both 1Dx's. I was reading that the 7Dlll would probably have Digi 6+. While the 7Dll has Digi 6. I thought this would not be a full upgrade. Digi 7 would be a full upgrade. If I had the new 1Dxll I could stop wanting the yet to be released 7Dlll. Maybe a + in processor speed is enough to increase the capabilities of a camera to be included in a full upgrade.

 

[ahsanford]

Firmware refresh with new functionality? Sure. That's a strong mid-cycle move for what might turn out to be another 5 year lifecycle product. Recall they did they exact same thing with the original 7D.

But new hardware of any sort -- even if it can leverage a ton of existing components and manufacturing processes -- is a new SKU, new catalog item, new excess / obsolescence burden, etc. Even if it's a very very very small change, it's an altogether 'new body' that needs to go through all the embryo-to-final-product work at Canon: pilot production, initial testing, final production, FCC clearance, a new manual, new marketing collaterals, etc. I just don't see Canon going to all that trouble unless:

a) It's a full-blooded sequel, i.e. it's not a refresh but it's actually the 7D3, or

b) It's the once in a blue moon specialty rig for astro, a '7D2a' or equivalent

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Def no chance of a 7d2+. so the question remains. When will the 7d3 appear and more importantly, when? I am guessing that as I am about to fork out for a 7d2 it will be about 6months after that 8)

If past is prologue, the 7D3 shouldn't drop until 2019 -- we're only 2.5 years into its (presumed?) 5 year journey.

See attached. It's not a rocksolid indicator of product lifecycles, but it shows a few key trends:

1) Product lines never seem to accelerate over prior models. If anything, they seem to be slowing down with the contraction of the industry (point and shoot sales are getting decimated). Even Canon's cash cow, the Rebel line, is on a 2 year refresh cycle now when it was an annual update in years' past.

2) Canon has been focusing on delivering new product lines (SL1, 5DS, EOS M, Cinema line, XC10, etc.) rather than simply rinse and repeat all their current lines as fast as possible.

So my guess is that the 7D2 is on a 'similar' 7D1 five year lifecycle, and that would put the 7D3 out around 2019. It could certainly move up in time if Canon's internal data is showing that the Nikon D500 + that uber-inexpensive 200-500 f/5.6 VR is stealing their enthusiast wildlifers, but the public would have little way of seeing that information.

But I could see Canon pulling a 7D1 with the 7D2 and unlocking some nice features in firmware in the next year.

- A

 

[unfocused]

...we're only 2.5 years into its (presumed?) 5 year journey...It's not a rocksolid indicator of product lifecycles, but it shows a few key trends...

I disagree.

The 7DI had an unusually long life cycle that I doubt will be repeated. Several unique situations contributed to the life of the original 7D.

1) The 18 mp sensor used in the original 7D had an unusually long life cycle. For whatever reasons, Canon kept reusing the sensor in model after model, moving it downstream to the 60D, then the Rebels and even the SL1. Others who know more about this than I do, say that was because Canon was moving to new sensor manufacturing technology that was not ready until the birth of the 70D and 5DSr models. Those sensors, which are also the sensor used in the 7DII, showed significant improvements over the original 7D. Canon has now moved to even newer sensor manufacturing technology with the 80D, 1DX II and 5D IV. So, it's sort of a chicken and the egg question: was it the 7D that had a long life cycle?, or was it really the 18 mp sensor that had a long life cycle?

2) Nikon abandoned the high end crop sensor market until 2016 and then surprised everyone by jumping back in, in a very big way.For most of the 7D and 7DII life cycles, there was zero competition. That's no longer the case.

3) Canon has finally started including features like touch-screen and wifi in their higher end models. The fact that Canon introduced the SD card work-around for wifi indicates that Canon realized they have a competitive disadvantage against Nikon on connectivity. No doubt the SD card solution is a temporary fix meant to tide them over, but will never substitute for built-in connectivity.

4) All new Canon models are including multiple f8 focus points. They are doing this in order to keep the 100-400 II competitive with third party options. The single f8 focus point on the 7DII puts the 100-400 at a competitive disadvantage against the f6.3 zooms from Sigma and Tamron.

5) Comparisons between the original 7D and the 7DII are somewhat misleading. The original 7D was more of a successor to the 40D -- that is a high end, general purpose crop sensor camera. At the time of the release of the 7D I, the only available full frame cameras were the 5D and 1D series. Serious hobbyists and professionals had very limited choices and really no choice if they were not prepared to make the leap to full frame. The 7DII is very much a specialist camera, focused on sports, wildlife and birders. It is a "mini" 1DX, which is something the original 7D was not. With the 70D and now the 80D Canon has returned the XXD line to the place it occupied with the 40D. They then reinvented the 7DII. Comparing the life cycle of the 7DI to the 7DII is not relevant because they are very different cameras, targeted to very different markets.

 

[Mikehit]

In addition, I recall the 7D was ready for release about 9 months earlier but they delayed it partly to tweak up the AF system so the 5-year cycle of 7D to 7D was a tad artificial. I think the 7D3 will be more like mid to late 2018

 

[rs]

It wouldn't be the first time. 16 months after launching the 1D mk II, Canon announced the 1D mk IIN, featuring pretty much just a larger screen and a larger buffer over the outgoing model.

 

[Loswr]

Not interested in upgrading for a touchscreen and wifi. Would upgrade immediately for a less noisy sensor.

+1

That upgrade is now available, it's called the 5DIV.

 

[tron]

Not interested in upgrading for a touchscreen and wifi. Would upgrade immediately for a less noisy sensor.

+1

That upgrade is now available, it's called the 5DIV.

After one month of use I can confirm that 5DIV is a very nice camera. It's just that for focal length limited cases that an improved 7D3 (sensor wise mostly) would be useful as well. OK that or we add a tc to 5DIV

 

[ahsanford]

...we're only 2.5 years into its (presumed?) 5 year journey...It's not a rocksolid indicator of product lifecycles, but it shows a few key trends...

I disagree. [nice list truncated]

Your reason #2 -- the crop APS-C competition is no longer dormant -- would be the #1 reason Canon would come to market faster than 5 years, I agree. We in the public space have no visibility to how well the D500 is doing, so all we can do is review its (formidable) specs and state that it's 'advantage Nikon' in this market space.

FWIW, the D500 price briefly dropped to $1,800 or so but Nikon just snapped it back to its original $2k asking again. It's anecdotal of course, but that might imply that it is indeed selling well.

But, for Canon, I would argue that you don't offer a wifi retrofit option with the W-E1 to a brand that you plan to update soon. I see the W-E1 on the 7D2 plus a (near) future more significant firmware update as the 'mid-cycle refresh' to extend the life of the 7D2.

But I certainly could be wrong. If the D500 + that 200-500 lens is truly stealing high-end crop users, Canon might shuffle the 7D3 release schedule a bit to respond. We shall see.

- A

 

[tron]

I do not think a firmware update can provide anything significant to 7DII. Its buffer size is already decent and IQ cannot be improved without a hardware update.

 

[ahsanford]

Also, what is reasonable to be added/improved via firmware?

Completely speculating here, comment welcomed:

Added details / options in the menu system: Yes (e.g. the 7D1 mid-cycle update did this)
Added IO functionality through existing connections: Yes (The W-E1 update just did this)
Improved Auto ISO or metering options: Yes (if ML can do it...)
Higher ISO limits? Yes (No guarantee the shots would be useable/better, but Canon could unlock this, right?)

Higher fps: Possibly? It's possible Canon originally designed the 7D2's shutter/mirror setup for a higher FPS count but opted against commercializing it for lifespan or buffer reasons. If so, they could choose to unlock this via firmware, but I'm guessing significant strings would be attached -- AF limitations, JPG only, etc.

Better noise in high ISO files: Not an expert here -- the hardware is fixed, but perhaps they've learned a thing or two processing-wise from newer models that they could retrofit the 7D2 with? One would assume this would only help a small amount.

More f/8 resolving AF points: Can they do this in firmware? Presume no, but I am no expert on this.
Larger buffer: Presumably hardware limited, so I'd guess No here
New sensor / higher resolution / better DR: No
DP RAW functionality: No
Touchscreen / tilty-flippy / etc.: No
More AF points (via traditional OVF use): No

Is that about right? Please straighten me out if I've misread/misunderstood the hardware vs. firmware situation.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I do not think a firmware update can provide anything significant to 7DII. It's buffer size is already decent and IQ cannot be improved without a hardware update.

For reference, a fair amount can be done from a past example:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0868043083/canon-eos-7d-firmware-v2-major-update

This was a relatively unprecedented mid-cycle upgrade from Canon. And as much as we think of the 'horsepower' specs (MP, FPS, AF, etc.) not being able to improve, expanding ISO limits, using the buffer more cleverly/efficiently and making overall usage snappier are not bad things at all.

- A

 

[Don Haines]

Also, what is reasonable to be added/improved via firmware?

Completely speculating here, comment welcomed:

Added details / options in the menu system: Yes (e.g. the 7D1 mid-cycle update did this)
Added IO functionality through existing connections: Yes (The W-E1 update just did this)
Improved Auto ISO or metering options: Yes (if ML can do it...)
Higher ISO limits? Yes (No guarantee the shots would be useable/better, but Canon could unlock this, right?)

Higher fps: Possibly? It's possible Canon originally designed the 7D2's shutter/mirror setup for a higher FPS count but opted against commercializing it for lifespan or buffer reasons. If so, they could choose to unlock this via firmware, but I'm guessing significant strings would be attached -- AF limitations, JPG only, etc.

Better noise in high ISO files: Not an expert here -- the hardware is fixed, but perhaps they've learned a thing or two processing-wise from newer models that they could retrofit the 7D2 with? One would assume this would only help a small amount.

More f/8 resolving AF points: Can they do this in firmware? Presume no, but I am no expert on this.
Larger buffer: Presumably hardware limited, so I'd guess No here
New sensor / higher resolution / better DR: No
DP RAW functionality: No
Touchscreen / tilty-flippy / etc.: No
More AF points (via traditional OVF use): No

Is that about right? Please straighten me out if I've misread/misunderstood the hardware vs. firmware situation.

- A

I think your assessment is pretty well on the mark....
As to higher FPS, I really doubt it as to move the mirror faster would take new circuitry and a new mirror mechanism.... That spec is fairly well cast in stone.... Yes, the 1DX2 has a faster mirror, but it also has a higher voltage battery and that means more power to move the mirror....

Higher ISO? Should be easy to fake it through software, but at a great cost to image quality. Ultimately, there are only so many photons per area and your only way to improve things is either bigger pixels or more glass to gather more light... at this point in technology, even a perfect sensor that is 100% efficient will only gain you a third to a half stop.... Despite how much I love my 7D2, for dim light you really want a FF sensor...

 

[zim]

Any chance for a 7D Mark 'II+'?

Nope

hope I helped (hick) ;D

 

[tron]

I do not think a firmware update can provide anything significant to 7DII. It's buffer size is already decent and IQ cannot be improved without a hardware update.

For reference, a fair amount can be done from a past example:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0868043083/canon-eos-7d-firmware-v2-major-update

This was a relatively unprecedented mid-cycle upgrade from Canon. And as much as we think of the 'horsepower' specs (MP, FPS, AF, etc.) not being able to improve, expanding ISO limits, using the buffer more cleverly/efficiently and making overall usage snappier are not bad things at all.

- A

Expanding ISO limits is a gimmick, no one in a right mind would try out of 7DII and anyway isn't a native of 16000 with a maximum of 51200 enough for 7DII?, buffer is already decent, overall usage snapier defines something vague. The Camera is fast.

I am not saying that improvements are not welcome but improvements in the past cannot determine possible improvements in the future.

UNLESS: They find a way to improve Af by making all af points responsive to f/8. But to tell the truth I am not sure they could/would do it. This will be a 7DIII capability...

Also; I saw perfectly reasonable comments of yours marked in red. So your new comments confused me a little since they seemed a little contradictory to your own....

 

[tron]

Some clarifications. "Limited" as it maybe I consider my 7DII my "toy" for birding in bright light. I made have more shots with my 7D2 than with all my other cameras combined. So I consider it a very decent camera that needs just a sensor IQ boost (in next iteration) to become an excellent one.

 

[ahsanford]

Also; I saw perfectly reasonable comments of yours marked in red. So your new comments confused me a little since they seemed a little contradictory to your own....

You may have misinterpreted my color code. Red = not possible in a firmware release for the existing 7D2. I am not arguing the red items were undesirable -- far from it: I believe the items in red items are the very value proposition for the 7D3.

- A

 

[tron]

Also; I saw perfectly reasonable comments of yours marked in red. So your new comments confused me a little since they seemed a little contradictory to your own....

You may have misinterpreted my color code. Red = not possible in a firmware release for the existing 7D2. I am not arguing the red items were undesirable -- far from it: I believe the items in red items are the very value proposition for the 7D3.

- A

On that I agree 100%. By the way do you own a 7D2? What are your thoughts? (Slightly off topic but still productive discussion)...

 

[ahsanford]

On that I agree 100%. By the way do you own a 7D2? What are your thoughts? (Slightly off topic but still productive discussion)...

I only shoot with my 5D3 -- I'm sure others here will chime in on how the 7D2 is performing in their hands, though.

- A

 

[unfocused]

On that I agree 100%. By the way do you own a 7D2? What are your thoughts? (Slightly off topic but still productive discussion)...

I only shoot with my 5D3 -- I'm sure others here will chime in on how the 7D2 is performing in their hands, though.

- A

I bought a 7DII, when I began to shoot a lot of sports and only had a 5DIII. Shot for about a year with the 7DII for sports and found it very capable, although I feel that 6400 is pretty much the upper limit and even then, you need to be tolerant of some noise. I do feel though that the noise is much less annoying than the original 7D. The difference in my opinion is that the 7DII noise is much more similar to traditional film grain, while the original 7D had a more "static-y" look to its noise.

I have since traded the 5DIII for a 1DX II and use that almost exclusively when shooting sports. However, I have to admit that when I look back on some of the images I shot with the 7DII and compare them to what I get with the 1DX II, the actual quality difference isn't that great.

If I'm shooting birds in flight for myself, I think I prefer the 7DII, because of the reach. But, if the light is less than ideal, I'm inclined to use the 1DX II because it seems to have better noise control at higher ISOs.