Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
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x-vision said:Lightmaster said:
... but based on years of experience 8).
No point to argue here, as it's really guesswork on my part.
But you will be disappointed if you expect better IQ than the 70D.
Like I said, trust me on that.
i also think it is very likely that it will be a pimped 70D sensor, as i wrote on page 1 or 2.
im only playing the advocatus diaboli here.
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so many people spewing their venom over something that is:whothafunk said:
1 - NOT official announced
2 - a RUMOUR (this one is important)
3 - NOT tested and reviewed
people always commented "i want less MP for better ISO capabitilies" and blahblah, now that this rumor surprised everyone with "only" 20MP and not 24MP, it's not good. again.
the fact of the matter is, that newer CPU's always make some leap forward in regard of noise in High ISO shots. Digic6 should be no exception. what this rumour also reports, is:
- 10 FPS (same as 1D4)
- 65 AF point (BETTER than 1D4)
- Dual Digic6 (BETTER than 1D4)
- more MP (BETTER than 1D4)
but who cares about that. all you people see is that it supposedly has 20MP.
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"Fine detail" is also used for the Rebel series. So it seems that we should expect no new sensor tech in the 7D II unless new info comes out.
Still setting my hopes for the 5DIV.
BTW Interesting that the CR list does not mention the sensor size...
Still setting my hopes for the 5DIV.
BTW Interesting that the CR list does not mention the sensor size...
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Don't know about 5DIII, but true for 70D. 70D manual says its sensor is 'fine-detail CMOs sensor'. Read the introduction.neuroanatomist said:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/280/28070D135_DL.PDF
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This camera screams "Mini 1DX". And if I was a sports shooter, I'd be very excited about it.
It's fast. Possibly only second to the 1DX in AF. Dual Digic 6. Excellent build quality.
I agree with the keeping shutter speeds above 10fps for premium cameras. That's a total marketing reason. As is the lack of built-in WiFi. The only reason for an SD slot is a WiFi card. And if you can fit an add-on WiFi card into the camera, it's about half the space and less to build it in. Again, it's a marketing reason. If you had dual CF, WiFi and 10fps+, it would seriously eat into 1DX sales....
If I were an aspiring sports photographer, I'd be very excited by this camera. And for sports photography, the absolute latest and greatest sensor shouldn't be highest on your list. Speed, AF THEN super colors. I've done plenty of action photography on my lowly 50D and as long as you have good glass and you have decent light, colors are fantastic.
For wildlife photography, I think the 'Fine Detail' bit was for you folks. The sensor might be tweaked a little to get a bit more detail in your images.
If this camera is in the $2000 - $2500, I think it's going to sell extremely well for years to come.
It's fast. Possibly only second to the 1DX in AF. Dual Digic 6. Excellent build quality.
I agree with the keeping shutter speeds above 10fps for premium cameras. That's a total marketing reason. As is the lack of built-in WiFi. The only reason for an SD slot is a WiFi card. And if you can fit an add-on WiFi card into the camera, it's about half the space and less to build it in. Again, it's a marketing reason. If you had dual CF, WiFi and 10fps+, it would seriously eat into 1DX sales....
If I were an aspiring sports photographer, I'd be very excited by this camera. And for sports photography, the absolute latest and greatest sensor shouldn't be highest on your list. Speed, AF THEN super colors. I've done plenty of action photography on my lowly 50D and as long as you have good glass and you have decent light, colors are fantastic.
For wildlife photography, I think the 'Fine Detail' bit was for you folks. The sensor might be tweaked a little to get a bit more detail in your images.
If this camera is in the $2000 - $2500, I think it's going to sell extremely well for years to come.
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whothafunk said:
Well said.
I almost hope that the 7D2 does turn out to be just an iterative step from the 70D / 7D - and by the way those specs are anything but imho. If that did happen then all these people would presumably go over to Nikon and we could have some sensible discussions on here ;D.
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The 7Dii Is the fanboys magic unicorn, this talk has started to grow rapidly four years ago and everyday after the legend grew and grew. The weirdest part are the fanboys, to them nothing competes to the almighty 7D and only the unicorn mark 2 can possibly best it, but even then it will have to be amazing! I remember when the 70D came out all the 7D fanboys ripped it on all the forums, yet the 70D had a newer sensor technology the fanboys demand from the mark ii.
Sorry to tell you something we all are going to find out later. The 7Dii will be a 70D with a bumped up fps, focus points, buffer. The same body from the 5 year old 7D and less features than the 70D at a greater cost..esp when the 70D gets the soon to come price reduction and normal sale of $850-$950 body price.
now when is the sale on 70D's coming!!
Sorry to tell you something we all are going to find out later. The 7Dii will be a 70D with a bumped up fps, focus points, buffer. The same body from the 5 year old 7D and less features than the 70D at a greater cost..esp when the 70D gets the soon to come price reduction and normal sale of $850-$950 body price.
now when is the sale on 70D's coming!!
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jrista said:
I am not being misleading. IR does not specify what "highest quality" DR means, nor do they provide images to demonstrate. You and I both know the threshold is arbitrary and the result would be impacted by NR and processing (as you just demonstrated with the infamous D800 / 5D3 test above).
They are photographing a step wedge and feeding it to Imatest. Preprocessing would change the result for "highest quality", but the total is pretty much the total. Again we're crossing the line from discussing DR to actually discussing shadow latitude.
Which they neither define in real world terms nor illustrate with real world samples, so it's pointless to debate.
What other sites? DPReview only does JPEG now, not ACR best, and DxO doesn't agree either way. (You can't cherry pick the "high" setting for Canon and the "low" setting for Nikon.)
I've worked with Canon, Nikon, and Sony RAWs and I can tell you with certainty that there is not a 2 stop difference in DR. They both fade to white and black at about the same points. What is different is how far you can push shadows due to noise vs. the work you want to put into the processing. Even with work if you push hard the final result is better with Exmor. But it doesn't matter nearly as often as Exmor fans pretend, especially in print (vs. pixel peeping).
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x-vision said:
I like that they use(d) Imatest and a step wedge. That yields an accurate, tamper resistant view of total DR. But I don't care what their opinion is on the definition of DR. The definition was solved before Ansel Adams!
Latitude...which is what you are actually talking about...is important to. But if it's as important to you as people pretend it is in online forums, then you are not exposing correctly, and quality will suffer even with Exmor. Exmor > Canon, but dealing with the scene (GND filter; HDR) will blow both away.
In practice if you are digging deeper then about 2...2.5 stops into shadows for detail then you are sacrificing tonality and micro contrast with any sensor. Canon can handle that about as well as Exmor just using the NR sliders in ACR.
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
NR does not affect how many steps of gray appear between black and white on a step wedge or total DR. It WOULD affect tests against arbitrary noise thresholds for "quality DR."
BTW: they use default settings for ALL cameras.
Black box formulas are not "direct."
Try photographing a step wedge some time. Keep increasing NR until more black squares turn gray :
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My aren't we getting nasty!
Chill out people, relax... Don't make this a personal vendetta... We are talking about rumours, not something important..... It just isn't worth it!
Chill out people, relax... Don't make this a personal vendetta... We are talking about rumours, not something important..... It just isn't worth it!
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
NR does not affect total DR. And they use ACR with default settings for ALL cameras.
If DxO was measuring what you think they are measuring then this would be impossible no matter what processing was performed.
Go take a long, hard look at jrista's processing of the infamous 5D3 vs. D800 online test. DxO claims that there is a 2.5 stop DR difference between these two cameras. If that were the case then that door and those tiles in the far back should be BLACK. No detail or image at all in those regions, just blocked up shadow.
Instead we see the same features that we see on the D800, just with a lot more color noise.
The color noise impacts our ability to push the shadows, or shadow latitude. But the DR is darn near the same. It certainly is not 2.5 stops less.
There is your direct, observational evidence that DxO is wrong.
Perhaps more importantly for someone buying a camera, the final result with NR shows just how small the difference ends up being in the real world. Yes, the D800 is better. Could you spot it on a 36" print? Probably, but it certainly would not ruin the print. 24"? Most people could not without being told to look for it up close. 12"? Nope.
How often do you shoot a scene intended for 36" prints yet blow the exposure so badly that you need to push shadows this hard?
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Just a few thoughts:
With the 70D, Canon introduced a new sensor, which was quite revolutionary with its two photodiode layout.
Do you really, really believe, that they will produce an entirely, completely new sensor for the 7D after having included their new, in some terms ground-breaking, DPAF sensor in...let me count... exactly one body?
It would not make sense, I think. Thus, I expect the 7D to feature a sensor, which is at the core based at the new DPAF architecture, probably (or rather for sure) with improvements. Awaiting something other than a sensor based on the architecture of the 70D's sensor is unrealistic.
And just a comment on the Dual Digic 6 processors:
Canon wants to make a Mk II of the 7D. So what do you do? Do you plan a completely new camera from scratch? No, you look at the old thing and think about what to improve. One possibility is to employ the most recent imaging processor, the Digic 6. And why two? For what purposes? Well... the 7D also features a Dual Digic circuitry - the main reasong the 7D Mk II may have two Digic processors is that they based their design on the old 7D layout. No one brought this point up right now. I think Dual Digic 6 does not imply, that there is inevitably something great hiding behind the courtain. It's just a revised board of the 7D. For the 7D, they knew why they need two processors. And maybe for the same reasons (with improved throughput, performance) they again employ two Digics...
With the 70D, Canon introduced a new sensor, which was quite revolutionary with its two photodiode layout.
Do you really, really believe, that they will produce an entirely, completely new sensor for the 7D after having included their new, in some terms ground-breaking, DPAF sensor in...let me count... exactly one body?
It would not make sense, I think. Thus, I expect the 7D to feature a sensor, which is at the core based at the new DPAF architecture, probably (or rather for sure) with improvements. Awaiting something other than a sensor based on the architecture of the 70D's sensor is unrealistic.
And just a comment on the Dual Digic 6 processors:
Canon wants to make a Mk II of the 7D. So what do you do? Do you plan a completely new camera from scratch? No, you look at the old thing and think about what to improve. One possibility is to employ the most recent imaging processor, the Digic 6. And why two? For what purposes? Well... the 7D also features a Dual Digic circuitry - the main reasong the 7D Mk II may have two Digic processors is that they based their design on the old 7D layout. No one brought this point up right now. I think Dual Digic 6 does not imply, that there is inevitably something great hiding behind the courtain. It's just a revised board of the 7D. For the 7D, they knew why they need two processors. And maybe for the same reasons (with improved throughput, performance) they again employ two Digics...
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oh and my two cents about the ongoing DR debate here:
1) for me it appears to be mainly some swaggering by different sides about who knows most about signal processing or on-chip circuitry. My "blabla indicator" beeps all the time while reading these posts.
2) this debate has nothing to do with the actual discussing of 7D rumors
3) the whining about "I'm not able to get decent photos until the DR finally improves... :'( :'( :'(" sssh! If the professional photographers get to know about the horrific DR issue with canon cameras, they will move to Nikon or Sony! AAAH! (For some reaons, they still stick to Canon despite this horrible horrible low DR...). Go outside, take beautiful pictures, be happy. Don't ever waste a thought about DR. I presume limited DR is not the reason if your pictures look bad for 95% of your pictures...
1) for me it appears to be mainly some swaggering by different sides about who knows most about signal processing or on-chip circuitry. My "blabla indicator" beeps all the time while reading these posts.
2) this debate has nothing to do with the actual discussing of 7D rumors
3) the whining about "I'm not able to get decent photos until the DR finally improves... :'( :'( :'(" sssh! If the professional photographers get to know about the horrific DR issue with canon cameras, they will move to Nikon or Sony! AAAH! (For some reaons, they still stick to Canon despite this horrible horrible low DR...). Go outside, take beautiful pictures, be happy. Don't ever waste a thought about DR. I presume limited DR is not the reason if your pictures look bad for 95% of your pictures...
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dtaylor said:
Erm, yes they are... the OP was complaining about a 2MP hike in comparison to the current 7D. Current APS-C is around 24MP and the difference is about 10% per axis (cf 20MP). I was indeed saying the same as you - there has to be a significant gap in MP before for you to notice. So 20 / 24MP gap, really not that much...
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