Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?

[Loswr]

But why fight sooooo hard to make sure Canon stays behind in this regard forever? How is that a good thing?

How many times do I have to say more DR is a good thing? How many times do I have to say that if my primary interest was landscape photography, I'd be using a D800/810?

How is stating a series of facts, and drawing a logical conclusion from those facts, 'fighting for Canon to stay behind on low ISO DR'?

Fact: Canon sensors have delivered less low ISO DR for >4 years.
Fact: Canon has not lost market share over that same period.
Conclusion: Delivering less low ISO DR has not negatively affected Canon's sales.

I'd be perfectly happy if Canon delivers more DR. But anyone with a shred of business acumen knows R&D resources are finite and is familiar with the concept of opportunity cost – development of one technology comes at the expense on not developing something else. What would you want them to not develop? Now...asking that is like asking which brand is 'best' – everyone has their own answer. Canon's job is to determine which features are most important to the majority of buyers. So far, low ISO DR doesn't seem to have made the priority cut...and Canon's sales haven't suffered for it, so it was the right decision for them (and their shareholders).

The point is, I'm not saying Canon shouldn't work to improve low ISO DR – it's not my call anyway. I'm trying to explain likely reasons why they haven't made it a priority.

You want more low ISO DR? That's fine...buy a camera with an Exmor sensor.

You want to claim (as you just did about the hypothetical 5D4) that if Canon doesn't improve low ISO DR, their sales will suffer and/or they're 'doomed'? That claim is contrary to the available evidence, so quite frankly, making such a claim just makes you look silly.

 

[jrista]

Technically speaking, the lowest level in every sensor is black, or ZERO. By EVERY definition of dynamic range, the range from zero to any number is INFINITY.

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

Do you need an education in basic mathematics?

What happens when you divide any number by zero? What happens when you take the logarithm of zero or infinity?

Mathematical formula for DR:

20*log(FWC/RNrms)

FWC divided by noise. Hmm, let's see:

20*log(16384/0)

Dur...oops... Infinity!

Introducing real math? How rude, he thought he had a zinger. But seriously, try DualISO if you haven't already.

Yeah, I've thought about DualISO. I don't like the loss in resolution...and I've never been too sure about putting ML on a brand new camera.

 

[Don Haines]

Don, when people show no respect and just shout and argue over everybody, it becomes impossibly difficult to show them any respect in return.

It's a hard thing to do. I try to focus on the good things and ignore the bad.... after all, we all do stupid things from time to time..

I'd love the most verbose people to actually take the time to photograph a step wedge, it should take about 15 seconds, and post their results.

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

 

[jrista]

...I started seeing this fundamentally mocking behavior.

Yep, it's just popping up all over the place!

Dur...oops... Infinity!

WOW... Well, clueless is as clueless does, I guess... You've definitely "clearly" proven your point...whatever your point actually is.

Heh, touche. Although, I tried the reasonable approach first, over and over, and he's been asking for it for days. He makes it very, very hard not to sometimes.

 

[Don Haines]

I've never been too sure about putting ML on a brand new camera.

+1

I intend to get a 7D2 when it comes out. I really don't care about any of the features other than the AF system as I am sure that everything will be an improvement over the 60D. The first thing I do when it arrives will be to send my 60D off to Canon for a cleaning and a new rubber grip.... The first thing I will do when it comes back is to load ML on it...

 

[3kramd5]

What happens when you divide any number by zero? What happens when you take the logarithm of zero or infinity?

What happens? You evaluate the limit, per LHospital. We don't have that case here, though.

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

16,384 = 2^14.

The lowest value the sensor records, however, isn't 0.

It's 2^0. Were it zero, any increase would be infinite on a percentage basis.

But it isn't.

1-2-4-8-...2^bitdepth

 

[Don Haines]

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

16,384 = 2^14.

The lowest value the sensor records, however, isn't 0.

It's 2^0. Were it zero, any increase would be infinite on a percentage basis.

But it isn't.

1-2-4-8-...2^bitdepth

The range is from 0 to (2^N)-1
it is 0 to 16383

 

[tat3406]

It does seem to happen a lot. Remember all the people poo-pooing the 6D when its specs were released? Many of those here advocated for the 5DII over the 6D, but you don't see many of those in favor of the 5DII anymore. If Canon did its homework, the 7DII should sell well.

+1. Here in the UK ( or should I say England & Wales ) the 5DII used prices held up very well when the 6D was first released, but now they are dropping considerably. I would assume this is because 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' , and people are finding the eating pretty good.

Strange how this happens with Canon gear. I think it's because they are relatively conservative in new releases, but those new releases turn out to be solid, well sorted. Remember the introduction of the 70-300L ? People howled that it was no better than the non L - because it's paper specification was similar :. Remember the 24-70 f4 IS ? The 6D ?

The only people who are complaining about the performance of the Canon sensors are those that are obsessing over the fabrication process. It's still 500um or whatever so there cannot have been any improvement......

Annoys the hell out of me.

+1
oh no, I have 70-300L, 24-70 f4 IS and 6D, so I had purchase the Canon product that no people ask Canon to do.
I had only complain the price on Canon product, but when I check Nikon and Sony, the price seem acceptable after some rebate. I am waiting the next Canon crop body, if nothing improve in sensor, I will purchase 100D/700D/70D with very low price.

 

[jrista]

Don, when people show no respect and just shout and argue over everybody, it becomes impossibly difficult to show them any respect in return.

It's a hard thing to do. I try to focus on the good things and ignore the bad.... after all, we all do stupid things from time to time..

I'd love the most verbose people to actually take the time to photograph a step wedge, it should take about 15 seconds, and post their results.

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

Stops is just a term used to describe differences by factor of two. We could just as easily replace stops with "powers of two", if you prefer...same thing. The raw calculations result in decibels, though. If we have 60ke- signal (in volts) and 3e- read noise (again volts):

20*log(60,000e-/3e-) = 86dB

We convert to stops by dividing by 6, since voltage in a signal changes roughly by a factor of two every 6dB, and it's ultimately voltage that were measuring (since incident photons, dark current, and amplification and readout all affect the number of volts per pixel), that gives us a number that corresponds to stops of change in exposure settings (shutter and aperture...not ISO). In the case of the above, we have:

86/6 = 14.33 stops

We can corroborate this by figuring out gain for a 14-bit ADC, and running the formula for power in a signal:

60,000/16384 = 3.662109375e-/ADU gain

To get read noise in ADUs, divide the read noise by gain:

3/3.662109375 = 0.8192

Calculating dynamic range from the digital signal:

10*log(16384/0.8192) = 43dB

Converting to stops:

43/3 = 14.33 stops

 

[RodS57]

I've never been too sure about putting ML on a brand new camera.

+1

I intend to get a 7D2 when it comes out. I really don't care about any of the features other than the AF system as I am sure that everything will be an improvement over the 60D. The first thing I do when it arrives will be to send my 60D off to Canon for a cleaning and a new rubber grip.... The first thing I will do when it comes back is to load ML on it...

ohh, a post about the7D2

My wish list is for better AF and improved high ISO performance. Looks like the better AF is in there but that might be it. I started reading this thread hours ago (all 43 pages) but I seem to recall that GPS was in there. That would be a bonus for me as I take pictures in the middle of nowhere. I did talk to someone with a 6D and he said the inboard gps was fairly hard on battery life.

Time will tell and time is getting short.

 

[Loswr]

I'd love the most verbose people to actually take the time to photograph a step wedge, it should take about 15 seconds, and post their results.

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

Stouffer T4110.

 

[dtaylor]

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

http://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm - T4110.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

Close. Stops apply in digital photography, but there's no direct translation from sensel SNR (or any of the related engineering formulas) to photographic dynamic range in stops. You have to test the system. There are multiple reasons why but...this thread is already painfully long.

 

[RickWagoner]

Hi all
I m mainly wildlife photographer.
www.500px.com/Vgramatikov

I have one different opinion about sport crop sensor cameras.
It is indeed very strange a sports FF camera to have 16 and 18 mp but crop sensors to have 20/24mp.
Sounds quite misunderstanding...

For most wildlife and sport users shooting sport and widlife with 20/24mp sensor crop camera means simply a lot of post processing. Nothing more...yeah it is great for landscapes and so one. But for natural light sport fast moving or wildlife needs this is totally no sense. We all need not more than 16mp here with bigger buffer and better ISO/DR performance. Cause when we shoot at 1600-3200 iso it is huge post to get good 10-12 final image. But this is impossible nowadays.

So... most important is frame rate and AF. So 7d2 will give us both. Bigger buffer ! I`m sure with dial 6 processors it will be done! Better body than 70d and similar to 5d3 done! So there is one thing missing. The sensor. Nobody wants to create a brand new sensor for specific users base on crop sensor camera. They have to be cheap after all... So current 20mp in 70d witch i have now (My 7d dead and i buy 70d) is enough. May be better 1600-3200 iso is required! Because with 5.6 lens like mine 400 5.6 it is very hard to make good IQ image winter time. We shoot constantly at 800-1600 iso at the edge of the shutter speeds required. So it make sense to say...ok if you want more go for 5d3 and 500/4IS ))

So sensor is the main market level separation here. Sony sensors is not better buy much after 800-1600 iso. They are better at 100-800 iso in DR case. After 800-1600 is equal to the canon 20mp sensor. So our market do not offer better sensors for high iso shooting with crop sensors. Just we may want at least little better performance at 1600-3200 range. May be usable 3200 shots and good 1600 iso. I have a lot of great images at 1600 and 2000 iso with my 7d and my 70d. When the image is right and post is good 1600 iso is not big problem. 3200 iso depends from the scene and light source.

So think twice before you want something... ))

Sorry for the bad english !

How do you like the 70D with the 400 5.6, and do you miss the extra focus modes shooting birds..some say they do some say they dont care. I have played with the 500 5.6 and 7D before but never bought in, i would rather buy 70D because of the features. have rented a few 70D but never used them for distance shots.

 

[3kramd5]

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

16,384 = 2^14.

The lowest value the sensor records, however, isn't 0.

It's 2^0. Were it zero, any increase would be infinite on a percentage basis.

But it isn't.

1-2-4-8-...2^bitdepth

The range is from 0 to (2^N)-1
it is 0 to 16383

Not from a digital logic standpoint. Call it (2^N)-526.363 in decimal if you like, but doing math based on the digital data means you start at 1.

 

[jrista]

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

16,384 = 2^14.

The lowest value the sensor records, however, isn't 0.

It's 2^0. Were it zero, any increase would be infinite on a percentage basis.

But it isn't.

1-2-4-8-...2^bitdepth

The range is from 0 to (2^N)-1
it is 0 to 16383

I think what 3kramd5 was getting at was that no system has zero noise. When we convert the voltage of a pixel into an ADU with the ADC, we cannot convert a fraction of an ADU. If RN is 3e- and FWC is 60ke-, then 3e- RN, although in floating point precision is 0.8192, ADUs are integer (at least, they are in todays sensors...maybe at some point we'll have cameras that can convert directly into 32-bit float RAW. ) Since ADUs are integer, you cannot convert any non-zero charge to zero...the minimum ADU is 1, or 2^0.

 

[jrista]

I'd love the most verbose people to actually take the time to photograph a step wedge, it should take about 15 seconds, and post their results.

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

Whilst the Stouffer versions are the standard I know of, there is no reason decent results couldn't be got with a home printed version. With careful lighting and exposure I would think you could do very well.

Well I wouldn't get into a semantics argument here, it seems many have far more time than I do and that is all it takes to "win", but I think stops translates just as well to digital as analog, it is just much easier to read the values of the output now and they are finite, unlike the infinite variability of analog density. When we needed to know the density of negatives it was much more involved than moving a cursor over the relevant pixel

Just out of curiosity, how did you determine the density of negatives? How accurate were the measurements?

 

[dtaylor]

Just out of curiosity, how did you determine the density of negatives? How accurate were the measurements?

Densitometers. Depended on the model and calibration.

 

[privatebydesign]

I'd love the most verbose people to actually take the time to photograph a step wedge, it should take about 15 seconds, and post their results.

I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one (any recommendations?)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

Whilst the Stouffer versions are the standard I know of, there is no reason decent results couldn't be got with a home printed version. With careful lighting and exposure I would think you could do very well.

Well I wouldn't get into a semantics argument here, it seems many have far more time than I do and that is all it takes to "win", but I think stops translates just as well to digital as analog, it is just much easier to read the values of the output now and they are finite, unlike the infinite variability of analog density. When we needed to know the density of negatives it was much more involved than moving a cursor over the relevant pixel

Just out of curiosity, how did you determine the density of negatives? How accurate were the measurements?

I was cool (a lazy little shit) and held them up to the light and guessed! We had a densitometer but I resisted using it unless pushed to. It was primarily to gauge development times for emulsions (and subsequent paper grades for printing) and I always worked around negative density with paper grades, I horrified the purists when the variable contrast papers came out and I hogged the colour enlarger for my B&W printing. But the readings were very accurate (well consistent) and only took a few seconds to make. Saved a lot on test prints of the wrong grade paper when you did use it too.

Wow I'd forgotten all that!

 

[pulseimages]

Regarding the sensor...very disappointing. Sounds like a re-purposed 70D sensor with a DPAF improvement. I was REALLY, REALLY hoping Canon would really show something impressive on the sensor front with the 7D II. If the camera really does hit the streets with a 20mp sensor, I fully expect it to have the same DR limitations as all of Canon's previous sensors. Extremely disappointing. :'( Guess we'll have to wait for the 5D IV to see if Canon can actually step up their sensor IQ game or not...which is just...so far down the road...Bleh.

Same thought crossed my mind. Canon is the new definition of lazy in sensor technology.

 

[jarrieta]

I still recall a comment made by Thom Hogan and others. If you can't take a decent shot with the current cameras available from Canon and Nikon, then it's not the camera at fault. It seems that a lot of people are expecting huge changes for a camera with a designated target market that does not require those things.

+1 on this. I've seen a lot of great photos regardless of brand. Based on what I shoot and can afford I'm happy with the 70D coming from a 550D. I shoot mostly action photos now and I think the 7D replacement will not disappoint in that regard. I think some people are quick to judge based on the rumored specs. Similar to what happened to the 6D.