Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?

[ICE]

Canon said that this camera will be the best spec'ed camera ever.

Here's what I think.

7D2 will have a brand new sensor.
Probably about 24 MP and will have very high ISO handling (must last for 5 years )

And it will have WiFi, GPS and touch screen

And AF will be with state of the art features.

And many of thease features will be better than 5D3 and 1DX.
This is called progress and development.
And will not take market from 5D3 and 1DX because soon we will see 5D4 and 1DX2 with same or better features.

But whatever we discuss in this or other forums will not change anything.
7D2 is alraedy in production and will not be changed.

But the marketing guys at Canon is frilled by all your inputs. Hype ;D


Patience guys. 8)

 

[RickWagoner]

canonwatch swears by the included wifi. does anyone know how correct they have been in the past.

 

[PicaPica]

canonwatch swears by the included wifi. does anyone know how correct they have been in the past.

as correct as any other rumor site.

post enough different rumors and one will be true.

relink to that rumor after the announcement to show you were right. ;D

 

[raptor3x]

...I started seeing this fundamentally mocking behavior.

Yep, it's just popping up all over the place!

Dur...oops... Infinity!

WOW... Well, clueless is as clueless does, I guess... You've definitely "clearly" proven your point...whatever your point actually is.

Heh, touche. Although, I tried the reasonable approach first, over and over, and he's been asking for it for days. He makes it very, very hard not to sometimes.

Did you see my post here? The loss of resolution is really minimal. The D810 will obviously give you better results, but not hugely better.

 

[Woody]

When i first got my D600 I was lifting shadows right, left and center (and more ). It was like an obsession. I was intentionally looking for scenes that would need shadow lifting. After some time it wasn't fun anymore. Soon though, couple of things occurred to me. a) I wasn't doing photography anymore, I wad doing experiments only. b) In my kind of photography I very rarely needed extreme shadow lifting that Canon couldn't handle. After the realization fun in photography has returned and more than 90% of the time they are done with Canon gears.
So, I would say if someone's work involves lot's of shadow lifting and if someone is not willing to do other techniques (filter, exposure blending etc), then Exmor will do a much better job than Canon. But don't expect miracles. Better doesn't mean perfect.

100% in agreement

Also, I find that for flower photos, the best ones usually are side-lit or front lit in order to make the colors pop. Sunflowers tend to face the east, so sunrise photos make most sense. Sunset photos of sunflowers are typically dull because the colors are washed out. Unless there's some compelling background, I don't see any benefit to shoot into the sun for sunflower shots; such is the case for the posted photos.

 

[Don Haines]

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity? ???

16,384 = 2^14.

The lowest value the sensor records, however, isn't 0.

It's 2^0. Were it zero, any increase would be infinite on a percentage basis.

But it isn't.

1-2-4-8-...2^bitdepth

The range is from 0 to (2^N)-1
it is 0 to 16383

I think what 3kramd5 was getting at was that no system has zero noise. When we convert the voltage of a pixel into an ADU with the ADC, we cannot convert a fraction of an ADU. If RN is 3e- and FWC is 60ke-, then 3e- RN, although in floating point precision is 0.8192, ADUs are integer (at least, they are in todays sensors...maybe at some point we'll have cameras that can convert directly into 32-bit float RAW. ) Since ADUs are integer, you cannot convert any non-zero charge to zero...the minimum ADU is 1, or 2^0.

DSP (Digital Signal Processing) 101......

A N bit D/A converter is capable of resolving 2^N states. A 4 bit D/A can resolve 16 states, an 8 bit D/A can resolve 256 states, and a 14 bit D/A can resolve 16,384 states. I think we can all agree on this.

So with a 14 bit D/A there are 16,384 states. These states are represented as binary 00 0000 0000 0000 to 11 1111 1111 1111, or 0 to 16,383 in decimal.

The signal that we wish to measure is typically fed through an amplifier (or attenuator for large signals) so that it's maximum value will be scaled to the input range of the A/D converter. For example, lets say we have an 8 bit D/A converter that works from 0-15VDC.... if we are using it to measure a signal from 0 to 1VDC then we only get the last 4 bits of resolution toggling and we have thrown away the accuracy of the system. Scale the input signal up by 15X and now you get all bits toggling. In this system the state 0000 0000 does not represent 0 volts, it represents from 0 volts to less than 15Volts/256 (0.0586 volts). Likewise, the state 1111 1111 does not represent 15 volts, it represents from 14.9414 volts to 15 volts. Each state represents a range, not an absolute value. The state 1111 1111 is special, it also represents the overload condition where an input signal is high enough to saturate the converter.

So back to our Canon 14 bit A/D....
It's lowest possible reading is 0, it's highest possible reading is 16,383. In any circuit there is the noise floor... the lowest level of signal found in the input signal. In a well designed circuit, the resolution of the A/D converter will be less that the noise floor. What this results in is the last few bits of the A/D converter toggling almost at random. The noise comes from our amplifier, from our converter, from fluctuations in our reference voltage on the A/D converter, and from outside. When we get rid of our least significant digits that are toggling randomly, we are left with the "significant digits".

My suspicion is that Canon does not use 14 bit A/D converters, but uses 16 bit or even 20 bit A/D and throws away all but the most significant 14 bits.

 

[axtstern]

Don't want to confuse you but if you are already thinking about stacking the extenders than I believe the 200mm range might be to short for you anyhow.

I walk around with the old version of the 70-200 USM IS and use the first generation 1.4 extender. Picture quality is therefore not comparable to your choice but maybe you should give the SIgma 120-300mm 2.8 some consideration. It is heavy but if you go for the model before the "art" makeover you get stabilisation, HSM and the reach of the 70-200 with the 1.4 extender without loosing a stop at a reasonable price. I use it with my old canon extender and therefore reach a bit more than 400 mm at F4 with still decent picture quality.

 

[3kramd5]

snip

You of course are correct. I was fixating on the number of possible entries, not the entries themselves. This is why we don't drink and post. Carry on.

 

[Don Haines]

snip

You of course are correct. I was fixating on the number of possible entries, not the entries themselves. This is why we don't drink and post. Carry on.

Plus, as we approach a problem/question from different backgrounds, we see things differently.... It often helps when we try to explain ourselves and show examples. Many times we are saying the same thing with different words.... A pleasant and professional discussion helps everyone out.

 

[Famateur]

@Don Haines: I've always appreciated your even keel and efforts to temper threads that escalate. Thank you! Maybe everyone should have a good canoe and beautiful country to paddle through. Might do us all some good...



Some general thoughts after reading the rumored specs and subsequent posts:

Looking at the product positioning of 60D to 7D, I would expect a similar relationship between 70D and 7DX/II. Same sensor, but very different build, frame rates and AF system. If such is the case with the successor to the 7D, I'll be a little disappointed, but not surprised. It'll still be a fantastic camera and I imagine will sell brilliantly.

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There seems to be a lot of assuming going on about what Canon does behind the scenes based on what's released to market (or rumored to be released). I agree with Neuro's point about business strategy, R&D opportunity cost and market research. Developing DPAF was NOT an evolutionary or iterative enhancement to old sensor technology. It was revolutionary. It was also chosen as the development priority at the opportunity cost of things like on-sensor ADC, et cetera. That decision was most likely driven by market research (which is just as vital to a business as technology research). It doesn't mean Canon chose to ignore dynamic range or ISO performance -- it just means that DPAF came first in the development release pipeline.

From a business perspective, it seems clear that Canon does not need increased dynamic range (right now) to succeed in the market. Making the leap from that to "Canon is clueless" seems a little naive. In a still weak global economy, it makes sense for a company to remain as conservative as possible while still retaining market share and shareholder value. Companies like Sony, who appear to be boldly innovating, are compelled to do so by their market performance -- but while exciting to consumers, such a strategy is coupled with high risk. Canon does not have the market pressure (yet) to take on excess risk.

None of us actually have any clue what Canon's sensor development program is in the lab, what's coming, or the strategy for when to release it. Assumptions that Canon doesn't innovate or is ignoring dynamic range are simply that -- assumptions. Assumptions exclude Canon's market knowledge or even factors such as issues with mass production of a new technology that cause delays, et cetera.

I think the takeaway, is that it's not that Canon doesn't value dynamic range and ISO performance -- it just means Canon values AF performance more at this time. We might also keep in mind that the lab is busy developing now what will be released down the road. That could very well be groundbreaking new sensor technology that adds a couple of more stops of editing latitude. Who knows -- and that's the point. Assumptions just stir bickering...

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I appreciate jrista's desire to see Canon employ technologies for which it already has patents. I'd welcome all the dynamic range and ISO performance I can get, though it's not critical to what I tend to shoot. That said, I tend to believe that Canon is working on that -- it's just that AF performance, including DPAF, were the higher priority -- even after several years of similar sensor performance.

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@jrista: Spending hours in post sounds downright painful. If high dynamic range landscapes were my bread and butter, but my loyalty was to Canon, I'd be frustrated, too. Perhaps a good ND grad filter might be preferable to hours of post between now and when you either pick up a D800/810 or Canon unveils a comparable alternative?

Also, on the sunflowers -- one thing I've always loved about them at sunset is how because the petals aren't opaque, they glow when back-lit. Just my taste, but I would probably leave them in shadow enough that the petals that glow have contrast to those that are in shadow. That might give more overall contrast to the scene and help it feel more realistic. Just a thought. Glad to see you're out shooting...

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Finally, I'm looking forward to whatever gets announced next month!

 

[NancyP]

For those who addressed my question on on-sensor ADC, thanks. Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

 

[mb66energy]

For those who addressed my question on on-sensor ADC, thanks. Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

Sth. around 3 Amps @ 5 Volts means 15 Watts of power consumption for the peltier element* + a fan to remove heat from the hot side of the peltier element.

A LP-E6 (if 1800 mAh and 7.6 Volts are correct) would run the peltier element for nearly 1 hour without the camera!

Sorry, but that is the cruel thing with physics ...

* added later for better readability

 

[Lee Jay]

Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

Extremely power hungry, you have to get the heat out somewhere (often a finned heat sink with a fan), very expensive.

For example:

http://www.atik-cameras.com/products/info/atik-4000

 

[Don Haines]

Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

Extremely power hungry, you have to get the heat out somewhere (often a finned heat sink with a fan), very expensive.

For example:

http://www.atik-cameras.com/products/info/atik-4000

A peltier device adds heat to the system. It moves heat from one location to the other, and that takes energy. In a closed system, like a sealed camera, that's bad! You will just make things hotter. In most devices that use them there is either a big heat sink on the outside of the unit, or a fan to blow air across the peltier device to get rid of the excess heat... I suppose you could use the bottom of the camera as the heat sink and then use a metal tripod to help conduct it away, but most of the time that isn't an option.... and as mentioned above, you would drain the battery very fast.

 

[Loswr]

For those who addressed my question on on-sensor ADC, thanks. Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

Sth. around 3 Amps @ 5 Volts means 15 Watts of power consumption for the peltier element* + a fan to remove heat from the hot side of the peltier element.

A LP-E6 (if 1800 mAh and 7.6 Volts are correct) would run the peltier element for nearly 1 hour without the camera!

Sorry, but that is the cruel thing with physics ...

* added later for better readability

FWIW, several of my scientific cameras use Peltier cooling in sealed units. This Peltier-cooled Zeiss camera draws 5 W max (via a FireWire bus).

 

[jrista]

For those who addressed my question on on-sensor ADC, thanks. Concerning heat dissipation, why not a Peltier unit affixed to the sensor assembly?

Sth. around 3 Amps @ 5 Volts means 15 Watts of power consumption for the peltier element* + a fan to remove heat from the hot side of the peltier element.

A LP-E6 (if 1800 mAh and 7.6 Volts are correct) would run the peltier element for nearly 1 hour without the camera!

Sorry, but that is the cruel thing with physics ...

* added later for better readability

FWIW, several of my scientific cameras use Peltier cooling in sealed units. This Peltier-cooled Zeiss camera draws 5 W max (via a FireWire bus).

Aye, peltiers do not need to draw a lot of power. Most astro CCD cameras are cooled, and they are designed to be pretty energy efficient. Most have a fan, but not all. The peltiers used in these kinds of cameras, however, are usually quite small. Heat production in a peltier grows exponentially with area. I have a bunch of 40x40mm peltiers sitting around, ranging from 65W to over 100W. These suckers draw a LOT of power, however, they are generally much too large to directly cool a sensor. When the sensor is about the size of a fingernail or smaller, you can get away with a very tiny peltier that can draw less than 10W. You can also go with a dual stage peltier cooler, which uses a very small peltier attached to the sensor assembly, and a larger one attached to that. The cooling is much greater, however the power usage is still no higher than, and can be lower than, a single large peltier.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Famateur, good balanced comments! It's easy to talk big when it's not one's own pocket book.

Jack

 

[NancyP]

Thanks, folks. I guess that one can't fool Mother Physics. Nor, in most cases, would one want to go to the bother of cooling the sensor. Deep-space astro and other low-photon-number imaging are exceptions where cooling would make sense. Amateur astrophotographers in warm climates do occasionally build Peltier-cooled camera boxes to get the camera body down to 10 degrees below ambient. I suspect that most camera boxes run off house current or marine batteries.

 

[Famateur]

Famateur, good balanced comments! It's easy to talk big when it's not one's own pocket book.

Jack

Thanks, Jack. It's easy to get carried away (nearly 50 pages now! ).

One thing is for sure -- the successor to the 7D is a big deal to a lot of people, people that Canon probably knows a lot more about than I do. I predict a hot seller...

 

[Tugela]

Maybe not. I was interested in upgrading my current camera, but 4K video (or lack thereof) is a deal breaker for me. My current equipment works just fine for stills, so I don't see the need for significant upgrades there. I don't need 10 fps when I rarely take more than 3 frames at a time. 200 (or whatever) focus points? - who cares when you only use one. What will make a difference to me is having both my still and video needs in one camera, and having the flexibility offered by touch screen composition.

If the new 7D only has HD video then I will hold off on upgrading until Canon gets a clue, or make the switch to Panasonic, perhaps Sony, (who do appear to have a clue).