Article: Canon's 4000D and the Race to the Bottom

[C-A430]

No doubt that this camera will resonate with some, but I would argue, those coming into the fold of ILC's would make their way regardless of this model. I have not heard a compelling argument as to why this will bring in the next generation of photographers. eBay, hand-me-down, refurb, good camera phones, have been around much longer then this new camera. The Next generation is currently being given access/experience to Smartphone cameras that can produce wonderful results, as well as being able to experiment with apps and settings. Dials and knobs don't necessarily interest the next gen. Nor are most newcomers interested/patient in setting the camera up for the best shot or taking the time to gain experience. The next generations that come to the ILC playground will have their expectations dashed with this no-frills video gimped model.

Where I live there is no eBay and no refurb. "Hand-me-down" will not get you 80D+18-135 STM because it is 4 monthly salaries. You might get a 10 year old point&shoot :

USA is not the only market in the world. You made the same wrong presumption as the f-stoppers did. BTW - that stands for foto-stoppers, right? ;D

IF canon was really interested in the next generations, more then they are in maintaining the status quo, they would produce an intuitive new design with touch menus that guide/teach you how to produce better compositions.

"intuitive new design" that you describe sounds more like an iPhone app than it sounds like something Canon "should do" ;D

 

[Etienne]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

 

[Ozarker]

No doubt that this camera will resonate with some, but I would argue, those coming into the fold of ILC's would make their way regardless of this model. I have not heard a compelling argument as to why this will bring in the next generation of photographers. eBay, hand-me-down, refurb, good camera phones, have been around much longer then this new camera. The Next generation is currently being given access/experience to Smartphone cameras that can produce wonderful results, as well as being able to experiment with apps and settings. Dials and knobs don't necessarily interest the next gen. Nor are most newcomers interested/patient in setting the camera up for the best shot or taking the time to gain experience. The next generations that come to the ILC playground will have their expectations dashed with this no-frills video gimped model.

Where I live there is no eBay and no refurb. "Hand-me-down" will not get you 80D+18-135 STM because it is 4 monthly salaries. You might get a 10 year old point&shoot :

USA is not the only market in the world. You made the same wrong presumption as the f-stoppers did. BTW - that stands for foto-stoppers, right? ;D

IF canon was really interested in the next generations, more then they are in maintaining the status quo, they would produce an intuitive new design with touch menus that guide/teach you how to produce better compositions.

"intuitive new design" that you describe sounds more like an iPhone app than it sounds like something Canon "should do" ;D

Very well said. This forum tends to be very top heavy on the high end of the market. I fear many misunderstand the entry level end of things and developing markets elsewhere. I think this camera will be well received in both markets. Yes, even here in the U.S.

 

[9VIII]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Canon could build an EOS body out of cardboard and it would still be better than every smartphone camera or P&S ever made.

Point and Shoot cameras never should have existed at all.

Anything that is compatible with the EOS ecosystem is better than pretty much everything that isn’t.
(I’d say the same for Nikon, but they just get a slightly softer recommendation.)

...“Snip”...
If the only cameras on the market were the 5D and 1D when I was looking for my first DSLR, I probably wouldn't be the photographer I am now. Point-and-shoots and entry-level DSLRs are essential parts of a product lineup.

Good job running in circles only to make the same point that I was making.

You would have been far better off with a cheap SLR for your first camera.

 

[9VIII]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Canon could build an EOS body out of cardboard and it would still be better than every smartphone camera or P&S ever made.

Point and Shoot cameras never should have existed at all.

Anything that is compatible with the EOS ecosystem is better than pretty much everything that isn’t.
(I’d say the same for Nikon, but they just get a slightly softer recommendation.)

I wonder how many us started digital photography with a P/S camera?

Also, there are a lot of people in my camera club who shoot with superzooms, and some who shoot with iPhones.

My camera kit still includes a P/S camera. The Olympus TG-4.... which survives repeated immersion in water FAR better than any Canon DSLR...

As the fantastic EF-S 55-250STM now shows, you can get superzoom performance on an entry level SLR.
That lens didn’t always exist, but now that it does there’s no point in making P&S Superzooms anymore.

Ok, underwater may be the last refuge for non-ILC bodies.
But it’s still a highly specialized application, in that case you’re going out of your way to buy a waterproof camera, like drone photography or rear view cameras on your car, this isn’t what’s being advertised as the ideal first camera for someone wanting to do general photography.

 

[9VIII]

Point and Shoot cameras never should have existed at all.

This is wrong on so many levels.

You could give a EOS 1Dx Mark II to a kid who's never touched a camera before, and I guarantee you the results would end up being worse than some of the stuff I shoot with just an iPhone.

A Nokia N95 back in 2007 (when I was just 12) got me started into photography. 3 years later, I got my first DSLR (500D/T1i with an 18-55), before moving to two 60Ds and now a 6D Mark II (and much better lenses).

If it wasn't for that Nokia N95, I wouldn't even have gotten into photography, because I would have been put off by the weight/size and complexity at that time (and age).

There must always be a simple and easy option for first-timers. Learn how to crawl before you walk.

The SL2 is nearly the same size as my first camera, and EOS-M is effectively the successor to the Canon Powershot, especially when they’re being made by the same people within Canon.
All Canon needs to do is start making a $200 EOS-M, which shouldn’t be hard.

And then for sub-$200 bodies they could use a 17mm sensor (M4/3 sized) to reduce costs even more (it’s really ironic that the M4/3 manufacturers refuse to try to compete at entry level prices while Canon is making even better progress using APS-C).

 

[Loswr]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

Mercedes releases a new, slightly less expensive but still feature-packed SUV. Honda releases a new, more affordable Fit without air conditioning.

I can understand people wanting to vent their frustration at Honda for not releasing a new, hybrid Pilot model. Wait...no, I can't. That would be asinine.

 

[Etienne]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

Mercedes releases a new, slightly less expensive but still feature-packed SUV. Honda releases a new, more affordable Fit without air conditioning.

I can understand people wanting to vent their frustration at Honda for not releasing a new, hybrid Pilot model. Wait...no, I can't. That would be asinine.

I can understand someone being so committed to a camera brand that they cannot abide by any criticism of any of their products or actions, and feel compelled to attack even simple comments that might explain why others aren't so in love.

Oh, wait, no I can't ... that would be asinine

 

[Etienne]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

Mercedes releases a new, slightly less expensive but still feature-packed SUV. Honda releases a new, more affordable Fit without air conditioning.

I can understand people wanting to vent their frustration at Honda for not releasing a new, hybrid Pilot model. Wait...no, I can't. That would be asinine.

I almost forgot ... no one goes to a trade show and compares the new offerings (or lack of offerings in this case) from different brands .... I suppose that would be asinine too.
No one in the imaging business should notice who's innovating at the show, and certainly should write what they think about it ... that would be asinine too
:

 

[Loswr]

At least we now know who needs Remedial Reading 101. :

 

[Loswr]

I almost forgot, I guess I missed Canon's massive display at the trade show, showcasing the 4000D. Which trade show was that, again?

You can go ahead and file that post under irrelevant tangents. Or verbal diarrhea.

 

[dak723]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

Ask a simple question and get an insult as a reply.

You are comparing a $2,000 camera with a $400 camera intended for a new camera owner who would not buy an ILC unless they can get a really cheap price. To me, the point is that you are trolling and bashing Canon with absolutely no argument. Presumably, since you couldn't find an answer to my simple question as to why you are comparing two different camera intended for two different consumers, you have no answer and you have no argument. Thus, as is usually the case when there is no argument, you resort to insults. That is what my reading skills tell me.

 

[old-pr-pix]

They had added new automation to their camera factory(ies) and certainly have the technology and manufacturing leverage to come out with a cheap camera.

Agreed, the 4000D makes sense to keep those manufacturing facilities humming until fully depreciated.

Augment vs. shift... better choice of words, yet as Canon adds more lines I just don't see how they all get sold, especially at lower end. Is it all on-line or different models in different countries? Locally most stores only stock very limited models. Some complain Canon forces them to carry too much inventory which sits idle until finally they get Canon to buy it back or eBay it off. It's tragic, but in my area Canon is not well regarded by sellers due to business practices. One pro store doesn't sell Canon at all.

 

[Etienne]

I almost forgot, I guess I missed Canon's massive display at the trade show, showcasing the 4000D. Which trade show was that, again?

You can go ahead and file that post under irrelevant tangents. Or verbal diarrhea.

The Canon cult is indistinguishable from the Apple cult.

 

[hendrik-sg]

I fully understand, that they are offering a camera as cheap as possible, and it looks like a "real" camera. 10 years ago i had a ixus 65 and a friend of me inspired me with his 450d which was a fantastic camera in comparision. Now i went up all the path and own a nice collection of fine equipment.

What i think is a misstake to still sell 18-55 lenses without IS. Just for a spontanous walmart buyer, a kid or other occasional "automatic mode" user IS makes a huge difference. Better sell people for 420$ a kit with IS than for 400$ one without, it can be the difference between "wow" and "frustration". The first expierience often decides between success or not..

 

[EduPortas]

This one is going after the Nikon D40 market.

It'a about time someone released a new camera that actually costs less
than the other Canon models that have steadily gone up in price since their first itineration.

As someone else said, not every Canon customer lives in the US, Japan or Europe
and most countries don't have a robust used-camera market.

So this camera makes perfect sense.

 

[Don Haines]

Sony releases a relatively cheap full-frame mirrorless monster ... the A7 III ... for $2000.
at the same time....
Canon releases an utterly boring rerun among other reruns ...

... I can understand a reactionary article to vent off frustration at Canons absence at the frontier of innovation in bodies

And far more people will buy the Canon, so what is your point?

Such a simple point and you still don't get it. I recommend Remedial Reading 101 for you.

And $2000 is more than the vast bulk of consumers will pay for a camera.....

 

[Orangutan]

I almost forgot, I guess I missed Canon's massive display at the trade show, showcasing the 4000D.

The Canon cult is indistinguishable from the Apple cult.

Etienne, I believe you misunderstand: I don't believe there's any Canon cult here. People like Neuroanatomist, and myself, do not believe that Canon is perfect. Far from it: I don't believe any camera maker is perfect, mostly because perfection is relative. If you are a landscape photographer, perhaps a medium format body that shoots 1.5 fps is perfect for you. On the other hand, if you shoot sports, you need 12fps or higher to get what you want. The question is which company makes the product you want to buy. You should then buy that product. We also believe that posting hopes, dreams and other rants on message boards will have nearly zero effect on what Canon (and other makers) choose to sell. Why? Because they have access to research that gives them much better information.

So why do people here seem to "defend" Canon? Well, it's not really defense of Canon, it's explaining their own choices. Sony sensors (in Sony and Nikon bodies) have great low-ISO DR. But Canon has a better selection of lenses, a history of reliability and good service, etc. It's a personal choice.

But what about people, like you, who bring up areas where Canon products can be improved? Please continue to do that! We'd all like to have more low-ISO DR, cleaner shadows and high-ISO, etc. But improvements to the products will increase the price. Some argue that it's worthwhile, or that it would increase sales to the point of break-even on R&D costs. Maybe. What we do know is that Canon's camera division has a long history of predicting what will make a profit for them, and we should respect that. It doesn't mean that Canon is perfect, or couldn't stand improvements. No, it's just an acknowledgement of the reality that this is how corporate business works.

In summary:

• buy the gear you want, from whatever brand
• posting complaints will not affect the manufacturers; the message boards are more fun and interesting when participants help each other get the best from their gear
• understand that Canon, Nikon, Sony, et al are in business to make money, not to make anyone's perfect camera

 

[Loswr]

I almost forgot, I guess I missed Canon's massive display at the trade show, showcasing the 4000D. Which trade show was that, again?

You can go ahead and file that post under irrelevant tangents. Or verbal diarrhea.

The Canon cult is indistinguishable from the Apple cult.

If by that, you mean there are people who recognize and value quality and reliability, I agree. Not everyone is so enlightened.

 

[Don Haines]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Canon could build an EOS body out of cardboard and it would still be better than every smartphone camera or P&S ever made.

Point and Shoot cameras never should have existed at all.

Anything that is compatible with the EOS ecosystem is better than pretty much everything that isn’t.
(I’d say the same for Nikon, but they just get a slightly softer recommendation.)

I wonder how many us started digital photography with a P/S camera?

Also, there are a lot of people in my camera club who shoot with superzooms, and some who shoot with iPhones.

My camera kit still includes a P/S camera. The Olympus TG-4.... which survives repeated immersion in water FAR better than any Canon DSLR...

As the fantastic EF-S 55-250STM now shows, you can get superzoom performance on an entry level SLR.
That lens didn’t always exist, but now that it does there’s no point in making P&S Superzooms anymore.

Ok, underwater may be the last refuge for non-ILC bodies.
But it’s still a highly specialized application, in that case you’re going out of your way to buy a waterproof camera, like drone photography or rear view cameras on your car, this isn’t what’s being advertised as the ideal first camera for someone wanting to do general photography.

What about superzooms? The Nikon P900 is very popular in my camera club, and zooms from (equivalent) 24 to 2000 mm. That’s a long way past 250mm......