AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult

[plam_1980]

Re: Manual Mode 5D mark iii

Learn exposure and how to shoot in manual mode and never look back.

Oh thats right! Because anyone who uses a semi auto mode totally misunderstands how to expose!!

Ridiculous. Different tools for different jobs. I'd like to see you change exposure when you have 1/10 second to do so.

You are so right! All Canon apologists should not ne bashing people who want a feature that can come handy in many situations and that is present in the bodies from the competition - are all people who got Nikon D4 & D800 bad photographers? Before anyone accuses me of being a Nikon troll - I have only Canon equipment and planned to go full frame and further invest in glass but all this elitist and arrogant attitude from the company and fanboys makes me suspicious

 

[Loswr]

I really miss the green square

I know you jest, but I will sort of miss it - I use back-button AF among other customizations on my cameras, and the green square mode was useful when I wanted to hand the camera to someone to take a picture with me in it. I'll learn to live with it...

 

[AvTvM]

Compared to what would be REALLY RIGHT in an advanced DSLR of 2012, the Nikon D4 & D800 come closest:
1. EC correction available in M-mode with Auto-ISO ... YES
2. Minimum threshold for shutter time 1s to 1/4000 [not limited to 1/250s] ... YES
3. In modes A, P where cam determines shutter-speed, focal length is taken into account ... YES
4. this shutter speed can be further fine-tuned slower/faster by user ... YES
5. Auto-ISO in D800 [@ € 2800] not crippled, but exactly as in flagship-model D4 @ 6k ... YES
...

All these points can be done in the 1D4 (except for #3 as there is no P mode)

Wrong!

5D3 Auto ISO - which is main subject in this thread - sucks on all five points.
And 1D IV also falls way short ...

Specifically:
1. only available via twisted workaround in "faux M-mode" ... using Av and setting min and ma shutter speed to the same value.
3. focal-length-aware shutter-times in Av,P mode plus Auto-ISO not available in any current Canon EOS body
4. also not available in any current Canon EOS body
5. all Canon EOS below 1 series are artificially crippled in their Auto-ISO functionality for "marketing differtiation" reasons. Annoyingly so, even and especially where pure firmware items are concerned.

Compared to "2012 gold standard" [Nikon D800, D4] Auto-ISO functionality in all Canon EOS bodies is inferior ... big time in anything including 5D 2, considerably in 7D and 5D3, still quite a bit in 1D IV / 1D X.

If you don't need it or use it due to personal preferences and or shooting situations, fine. But there are many others, who would love to have and rightfully expect Canon to deliver more bang for the buck on this.

 

[briansquibb]

Compared to what would be REALLY RIGHT in an advanced DSLR of 2012, the Nikon D4 & D800 come closest:
1. EC correction available in M-mode with Auto-ISO ... YES
2. Minimum threshold for shutter time 1s to 1/4000 [not limited to 1/250s] ... YES
3. In modes A, P where cam determines shutter-speed, focal length is taken into account ... YES
4. this shutter speed can be further fine-tuned slower/faster by user ... YES
5. Auto-ISO in D800 [@ € 2800] not crippled, but exactly as in flagship-model D4 @ 6k ... YES
...

All these points can be done in the 1D4 (except for #3 as there is no P mode)

Wrong!

5D3 Auto ISO - which is main subject in this thread - sucks on all five points.
And 1D IV also falls way short ...

Specifically:
1. only available via twisted workaround in "faux M-mode" ... using Av and setting min and ma shutter speed to the same value.
3. focal-length-aware shutter-times in Av,P mode plus Auto-ISO not available in any current Canon EOS body
4. also not available in any current Canon EOS body
5. all Canon EOS below 1 series are artificially crippled in their Auto-ISO functionality for "marketing differtiation" reasons. Annoyingly so, even and especially where pure firmware items are concerned.

Compared to "2012 gold standard" [Nikon D800, D4] Auto-ISO functionality in all Canon EOS bodies is inferior ... big time in anything including 5D 2, considerably in 7D and 5D3, still quite a bit in 1D IV / 1D X.

If you don't need it or use it due to personal preferences and or shooting situations, fine. But there are many others, who would love to have and rightfully expect Canon to deliver more bang for the buck on this.

Sorry but you are totally wrong on point #1 The 1D4 has an even better feature than you are asking for. You set the minimum to whatever you want and the maximum to 1/8000. So if the iso gets to 100 but that would overexpose then the shutter speed increases approriately. I am sorry that you think that using the function as intended is such a bad thing but it does the job and does in in a failsafe fashion

#2 the minimum is setable from 30s to 1/8000 in the 1D4

#3 yes - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/camera_settings/shooting_modes.do

#4 this is available on the 1D4

#5 Auto iso is NOT crippled in the 1D4

I find it disappointing that you have decided to have anti Canon/pro Nikon rant. It sounds like you have never used a series 1 Canon and that you have sucumbed to the 'D800 is greatest' brainwashing.

 

[Loswr]

I find it disappointing that you have decided to have anti Canon/pro Nikon rant. It sounds like you have never used a series 1 Canon and that you have sucumbed to the 'D800 is greatest' brainwashing.

The next logical response is that with Canon you need to spend thousands more to get those features, compared to the D800.

 

[briansquibb]

I find it disappointing that you have decided to have anti Canon/pro Nikon rant. It sounds like you have never used a series 1 Canon and that you have sucumbed to the 'D800 is greatest' brainwashing.

The next logical response is that with Canon you need to spend thousands more to get those features, compared to the D800.

.... if the D800 is what you want 8) 8) 8)

 

[AvTvM]

Sorry but you are totally wrong on point #1 The 1D4 has an even better feature than you are asking for. You set the minimum to whatever you want and the maximum to 1/8000. So if the iso gets to 100 but that would overexpose then the shutter speed increases approriately. I am sorry that you think that using the function as intended is such a bad thing but it does the job and does in in a failsafe fashion

only applicable in "Av" mode. D800/D4 will do the same, only (theoretical) advantage of the 1D IV is the range of shutter times between 1s and 30s in combination with Auto ISO:

#2 the minimum is setable from 30s to 1/8000 in the 1D4

As far as #3 and #4 are concerned the D800/D4 are way better ... beacuase the 1D IV will not
* automatically set shutter speed to 1/focal length in Av and P in Auto-ISO [#3]
* and allow the user to choose to apply a correction factor to that auto funtion for faster or longer shutter times. [#4]

#3 yes - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/camera_settings/shooting_modes.do

If you refer to the "program line" in the link you provided ... this only applies to "P" mode ... and only to time+aperture combinations @ a chosen ISO setting. It is not at all an equivalent of the D800/D4 "ISO Sensitivity" function in Auto-ISO.

But since you state in an earlier post

All these points can be done in the 1D4 (except for #3 as there is no P mode)

you may want to try out the instructions in the Canon-link you provided:
"To set the shooting mode on EOS-1D and 1Ds series cameras press the Mode button (top left) and then turn the electronic input dial. The mode selected (P, Tv, Av or M) will appear in the top left of the LCD panel."

I find it disappointing that you have decided to have anti Canon/pro Nikon rant. It sounds like you have never used a series 1 Canon and that you have sucumbed to the 'D800 is greatest' brainwashing.

I find it disappointing that even in 2012 Canon is still not able to provide competitive Auto-ISO functionality, especially since all of it simply is a cheap firmeware item.

I find it even more disappointing, that Canon has brought out an inferior, firmware-crippled camera and is charging 20% more for it than Nikon asks for a camera that has way better IQ and bests the 5D3 in practically every other respect, with the sole exception of fps. Heck, as far as IQ is concerned, it is probably even a better crop camera than my 7D.

And I find it disappointing, that any Canon-critical discusion is immediately termed "Anti-Canon rant" around here.

 

[briansquibb]

Sorry but you are totally wrong on point #1 The 1D4 has an even better feature than you are asking for. You set the minimum to whatever you want and the maximum to 1/8000. So if the iso gets to 100 but that would overexpose then the shutter speed increases approriately. I am sorry that you think that using the function as intended is such a bad thing but it does the job and does in in a failsafe fashion

only applicable in "Av" mode. D800/D4 will do the same, only (theoretical) advantage of the 1D IV is the range of shutter times between 1s and 30s in combination with Auto ISO:

#2 the minimum is setable from 30s to 1/8000 in the 1D4

As far as #3 and #4 are concerned the D800/D4 are way better ... beacuase the 1D IV will not
* automatically set shutter speed to 1/focal length in Av and P in Auto-ISO [#3]
* and allow the user to choose to apply a correction factor to that auto funtion for faster or longer shutter times. [#4]

#3 yes - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/camera_settings/shooting_modes.do

If you refer to the "program line" in the link you provided ... this only applies to "P" mode ... and only to time+aperture combinations @ a chosen ISO setting. It is not at all an equivalent of the D800/D4 "ISO Sensitivity" function in Auto-ISO.

But since you state in an earlier post

All these points can be done in the 1D4 (except for #3 as there is no P mode)

you may want to try out the instructions in the Canon-link you provided:
"To set the shooting mode on EOS-1D and 1Ds series cameras press the Mode button (top left) and then turn the electronic input dial. The mode selected (P, Tv, Av or M) will appear in the top left of the LCD panel."

I find it disappointing that you have decided to have anti Canon/pro Nikon rant. It sounds like you have never used a series 1 Canon and that you have sucumbed to the 'D800 is greatest' brainwashing.

I find it disappointing that even in 2012 Canon is still not able to provide competitive Auto-ISO functionality, especially since all of it simply is a cheap firmeware item.

I find it even more disappointing, that Canon has brought out an inferior, firmware-crippled camera and is charging 20% more for it than Nikon asks for a camera that has way better IQ and bests the 5D3 in practically every other respect, with the sole exception of fps. Heck, as far as IQ is concerned, it is probably even a better crop camera than my 7D.

And I find it disappointing, that any Canon-critical discusion is immediately termed "Anti-Canon rant" around here.

Yep you are right I haven't used P mode and I had forgotten that it was there - I RTFM and corrected myself.

You are right about the speed in AV mode - but then I am setting the speed as in #1 and I can work out for myself that a 400mm lens means a shutter speed of 1/500 - I dont need the camera to work that one out for me so it is just not relevant.

Perhaps you need to RTFM before slating a manufacturer?

When someone posts a post that basically is incorrect in the facts to make the point that Canon is useless and Nikon is wonderful

I find it even more disappointing, that Canon has brought out an inferior, firmware-crippled camera and is charging 20% more for it than Nikon asks for a camera that has way better IQ and bests the 5D3 in practically every other respect, with the sole exception of fps.

and is saying that all Canon cameras are not up to the job- it comes across as an anti Canon rant - especially as the thread is not comparing Canon with Nikon.

 

[Loswr]

I find it disappointing that even in 2012 Canon is still not able to provide competitive Auto-ISO functionality, especially since all of it simply is a cheap firmeware item.

Me, too. I'd certainly like to have EC available when using Auto ISO in M mode.

And I find it disappointing, that any Canon-critical discusion is immediately termed "Anti-Canon rant" around here.

From what I've seen, well-reasoned and fairly presented posts which are critical of Canon are well received by most here. But people do consider the source, and when the source is clearly biased, the posts come off as trolling, and generate a pretty harsh response. I looked back through the last 30 or so of your posts, here are some excerpts:

• "Canon has brought out an inferior, firmware-crippled camera..."
• "Canon will move very slowly and half-heartedly on this..."
• " Canon's [should]... quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product"
• " 5D III is overpriced. Nikon D800 is both a much better camera and a much better value."

And my personal favorite:

• "Sepcifically, Canon F_____ up when they..."

You're dissatisfied with Canon. We get it. b\Beating your personal dead horse over and over may be cathartic for you, but it gets old. Please, go buy a D800. You'll love that it's so much better than the 5DIII you don't have, you'll love all those recently-released high-IQ lenses from Nikon (maybe you won't love their comparatively higher prices so much, though), you'll love the famed Nikon ergonomics, I bet you'll even love the spiffy gold box the D800 comes in.

BTW, you realize you'll have to change your handle, right? "AvTvM" won't win you any friends on the Nikon forums, you might try ASM instead.

 

[briansquibb]

Me, too. I'd certainly like to have EC available when using Auto ISO in M mode.

You will get it with the 1DX

 

[Razor2012]

I find it disappointing that even in 2012 Canon is still not able to provide competitive Auto-ISO functionality, especially since all of it simply is a cheap firmeware item.

Me, too. I'd certainly like to have EC available when using Auto ISO in M mode.

And I find it disappointing, that any Canon-critical discusion is immediately termed "Anti-Canon rant" around here.

From what I've seen, well-reasoned and fairly presented posts which are critical of Canon are well received by most here. But people do consider the source, and when the source is clearly biased, the posts come off as trolling, and generate a pretty harsh response. I looked back through the last 30 or so of your posts, here are some excerpts:

• "Canon has brought out an inferior, firmware-crippled camera..."
• "Canon will move very slowly and half-heartedly on this..."
• " Canon's [should]... quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product"
• " 5D III is overpriced. Nikon D800 is both a much better camera and a much better value."

And my personal favorite:

• "Sepcifically, Canon F_____ up when they..."

You're dissatisfied with Canon. We get it. b\Beating your personal dead horse over and over may be cathartic for you, but it gets old. Please, go buy a D800. You'll love that it's so much better than the 5DIII you don't have, you'll love all those recently-released high-IQ lenses from Nikon (maybe you won't love their comparatively higher prices so much, though), you'll love the famed Nikon ergonomics, I bet you'll even love the spiffy gold box the D800 comes in.

BTW, you realize you'll have to change your handle, right? "AvTvM" won't win you any friends on the Nikon forums, you might try ASM instead.

In other words...don't go away mad, just go away.

 

[sarangiman]

I just wish Auto ISO worked w/ EC in M mode... You could say 'just shoot Av' instead, but M allows you to, say, set a minimum shutter speed much more easily than going into Auto ISO settings to change the min shutter speed (which may depend on your setting, focal length, etc.). Auto ISO in M at least allows me to, in dim environments say, set the aperture to the widest setting I'm comfortable with for the DOF I'm looking for, then set the shutter speed to the minimum I feel is appropriate for the lighting/focal length/movement in my scene, then the camera does the rest. That's exactly what I can do right now, just without EC.

Shooting in this manner in Av doesn't allow me to change that 'minimum shutter speed' as quickly as just turning a dial in M, yes?

 

[briansquibb]

I just wish Auto ISO worked w/ EC in M mode... You could say 'just shoot Av' instead, but M allows you to, say, set a minimum shutter speed much more easily than going into Auto ISO settings to change the min shutter speed (which may depend on your setting, focal length, etc.). Auto ISO in M at least allows me to, in dim environments say, set the aperture to the widest setting I'm comfortable with for the DOF I'm looking for, then set the shutter speed to the minimum I feel is appropriate for the lighting/focal length/movement in my scene, then the camera does the rest. That's exactly what I can do right now, just without EC.

Shooting in this manner in Av doesn't allow me to change that 'minimum shutter speed' as quickly as just turning a dial in M, yes?

You are right changing the minimum shutter speed is 4 operations on the menu system - but fine if you only want limited numbers of changes. Else it is the standard M with Autoiso and work in pp. I change the minimum shutter speed when I am changing lens or shooting style to panning - so it is not a big hardship for me - the pros definitely outweigh the cons

 

[sarangiman]

Else it is the standard M with Autoiso and work in pp.

Post-processing EC instead of ISO change would be fine if Canon sensors had lower read noise & were closer to the theoretical 'ISO-less' camera... but my tests with my 5D Mark III show that even ISO 6400 is better than ISO 1600 + 2stops in post. Haven't seen similar tests with the D800 yet but my guess is that it stands up better to EC in PP than the Canon due to its lower read noise.

So I would say it behooves Canon even more to implement better Auto ISO, since optimizing ISO for a shot is more important on Canon than it is for Nikon, given the higher read noise on Canon sensors.

 

[briansquibb]

Else it is the standard M with Autoiso and work in pp.

Post-processing EC instead of ISO change would be fine if Canon sensors had lower read noise & were closer to the theoretical 'ISO-less' camera... but my tests with my 5D Mark III show that even ISO 6400 is better than ISO 1600 + 2stops in post. Haven't seen similar tests with the D800 yet but my guess is that it stands up better to EC in PP than the Canon due to its lower read noise.

So I would say it behooves Canon even more to implement better Auto ISO, since optimizing ISO for a shot is more important on Canon than it is for Nikon, given the higher read noise on Canon sensors.

Do you change the shutter speed whilst you are shooting then?

 

[sarangiman]

Do you change the shutter speed whilst you are shooting then?

Not exactly sure what you're asking but I'll try to answer: sometimes at a reception I will choose f/2.0 on my 85mm lens (for some room for AF error), & will try a bunch of shutter speeds to see what the minimum shutter speed I can get away with is for the lighting in that environment. Then, I'd like Auto ISO to do its thing.

But say some action starts happening (the speaker giving a speech starts moving fast). I need to up my shutter speed. This is the sort of scenario where Auto ISO + M mode is incredibly useful. I might then want EC on top of that.

Granted, I've only begun to shoot with Auto ISO since I found it largely unusable on my 5D Mark II. So I'm not crying excessively about the poor implementation because I just haven't used it much to begin with. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't benefit from a better implementation that would encourage me to use Auto ISO even more.

Also, I'd love the ability to tell the camera to only jump full stops in Auto ISO mode. No use shooting ISO 125 or 160 since those are push/pulls that actually lower DR. I can limit it to full stops when I manually select ISO -- why doesn't that preference transfer over to Auto ISO??

 

[Loswr]

why doesn't that preference transfer over to Auto ISO??

If it did, how would the camera expose 'correctly' if you adjusted the aperture or shutter speed by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop?

 

[briansquibb]

I haven't got a 5DIII so cant really help with the details of that. It wouldn't be a problem with the 1D4, but that may be different in details

I would be inclined to fix the shutter speed at the 1/focal length and then shoot all night like that - at least you would avoid motion blur issues.

 

[briansquibb]

why doesn't that preference transfer over to Auto ISO??

If it did, how would the camera expose 'correctly' if you adjusted the aperture or shutter speed by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop?

You would only be able to correct it in pp - which will give about the same result if auto adjusted by 1/3

 

[sarangiman]

If it did, how would the camera expose 'correctly' if you adjusted the aperture or shutter speed by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop?

Fair enough, but I'd take the exposure being 1/3 stop off over potential DR loss. Better yet, if removal of that 2nd amplification step altogether lowered the overall read noise (based off of Martinec's analysis), I'd be a proponent of removing those intermediate ISOs completely!

But I bet I'd be in the minority on that one