AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult

[t.linn]

You were claiming that AutoISO was messed up in the 5D3 - which it clearly isnt - and you call Canon stupid which they clearly are not.

The OP is correct. The lack of exposure compensation control in M+auto-ISO is no less limiting than trying to shoot in Av or Tv without EC. Perhaps the confusion lies in the term "manual + auto ISO". The bottom line is that if aperture and shutter speed are fixed but ISO is floating, then this parameter is set based on what the camera thinks the correct exposure should be. And just like in Av or Tv, the camera is often wrong. But unlike Av and Tv, in M+auto-ISO there is no way to compensate for the error.

This should be pretty obvious to a camera engineer if he/she actually uses cameras and is not just making theoretical choices. I hesitate to name call but the term "stupid" doesn't seem too far off the mark. Situations like this are particularly hard to accept from Canon since they are highly profitable with huge cash reserves and thus have the resources to get things like this right. It's not like their camera division isn't highly profitable. Perhaps they are crippled by bureaucracy in a way that smaller competitors like Pentax are not. Regardless, I am in complete agreement with the OP on this.

 

[sarangiman]

Do you think that enough people directly complaining to Canon from even before the camera is in the hands of people will get them to provide a firmware fix?

Where does one even lodge such suggestions/complaints?

Also, in M mode, what dial would be used for EC?

 

[bloodstupid]

Do you think that enough people directly complaining to Canon from even before the camera is in the hands of people will get them to provide a firmware fix?

Where does one even lodge such suggestions/complaints?

Also, in M mode, what dial would be used for EC?

It cant hurt to try, i allready filled out an online-contact-form asking them politely to consider including faster speeds. They did add autofocus for F8 in the 1Dx after user complaints didnt they?

 

[smirkypants]

I gotta say, while not worthy of shrieking, it is pretty dumb. Ideally, if I were shooting the sports I shoot, I would want to set a shutter speed floor of 1/1000 or so and let Auto ISO choose an appropriate ISO. This is really quite a strange thing for Canon to do.

 

[briansquibb]

I gotta say, while not worthy of shrieking, it is pretty dumb. Ideally, if I were shooting the sports I shoot, I would want to set a shutter speed floor of 1/1000 or so and let Auto ISO choose an appropriate ISO. This is really quite a strange thing for Canon to do.

I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do. I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.

 

[smirkypants]

I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do. I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.

Actually, what I ideally want is for the camera to favor changing shutter speed in AV mode to changing ISO. I would like to tell the camera, "hey camera, set your floor shutter speed at 1/1000 and let Av move the shutter up to 1/8000. Only change ISO if you have to in order to maintain a minimum 1/1000. I would rather my shutter speed float. If I set the minimum shutter to 1/2000, then ISO may go up to 3200 when the action moves to the shade. But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

I think this makes sense, right? This system won't do that, right?

 

[Dylan777]

sorry guys, but What is EC means?........I found this info in 5D III manual

 

[briansquibb]

I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do. I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.

Actually, what I ideally want is for the camera to favor changing shutter speed in AV mode to changing ISO. I would like to tell the camera, "hey camera, set your floor shutter speed at 1/1000 and let Av move the shutter up to 1/8000. Only change ISO if you have to in order to maintain a minimum 1/1000. I would rather my shutter speed float. If I set the minimum shutter to 1/2000, then ISO may go up to 3200 when the action moves to the shade. But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

I think this makes sense, right? This system won't do that, right?

I dont do it that way - I am happy fixing the av and tv - effectively this approach sets the camera to set the minimum ISO. I would set the safety shift on to allow the camera to override M mode.

I believe it can be done in the series 1 by setting tv range and safety shift although I have never used this as you have to change a fn ( which I am liable not to change back )

 

[sarangiman]

But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

What you speak of goes entirely against the principle of 'adjust everything else within limits, then select the minimum ISO that gives you an acceptable exposure (±EC, or exposure compensation, for the bloke above).

What you're asking for is to give high shutter speed a priority, allowing ISO to go higher than the camera could get by just setting a longer shutter speed (and therefore lower ISO).

That just goes against the entire philosophy of Auto ISO. What you're asking for is essentially 'use highest ISO possible within my limits, float everything else'.

Seems like a pretty limited case scenario to me. Seems to me you could just do one of the following:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Shoot in Tv mode, where the camera will prefer wider apertures, then increasing ISO. You even have EC available.
[*]Shoot in M mode, select the aperture/shutter speed you prefer, camera will select lowest ISO necessary.
[/list]

What's wrong with either of those two options?

Also, I ask again, what would you guys propose be the method of changing EC in M mode using Auto ISO? I would, for example, say: hold M.fn function down & use wheel to adjust EC.

Also, this whole 'defaults to ISO 400' thing... think that's because that's about unity gain for the 5DIII (and 5DII)? So they decided if you're using flash, you're probably deprived of light, so going below 400 would be undesirable, & going above 400 doesn't help much anyway since some people hold that there's not much advantage to shooting above unity gain ISO anyway & you have a flash to help anyhow...

Is that sound reasoning? I myself am unsure...

 

[briansquibb]

I think the issue of auto iso for flash is a non problem as the shooter needs to decide the amount of ambient needed, rather than the camera.

I was using iso 50 today to lose the ambient, worked a treat and got better IQ for it at the same time

 

[smirkypants]

But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

What you speak of goes entirely against the principle of 'adjust everything else within limits, then select the minimum ISO that gives you an acceptable exposure (±EC, or exposure compensation, for the bloke above).

What you're asking for is to give high shutter speed a priority, allowing ISO to go higher than the camera could get by just setting a longer shutter speed (and therefore lower ISO).

That just goes against the entire philosophy of Auto ISO. What you're asking for is essentially 'use highest ISO possible within my limits, float everything else'.

Seems like a pretty limited case scenario to me. Seems to me you could just do one of the following:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Shoot in Tv mode, where the camera will prefer wider apertures, then increasing ISO. You even have EC available.
[*]Shoot in M mode, select the aperture/shutter speed you prefer, camera will select lowest ISO necessary.
[/list]

What's wrong with either of those two options?

I assure you, I run into this problem all of the time.

Tv and M mode would not work because you have to hard set your shutter speed. Assume you are shooting sports action where there is bright light at one end of the field and shadow at the other end; in fact, those are the conditions I will be shooting in tomorrow. Av works okay. You can set your aperture wide open and set your ISO to say 1600 to make sure you get the shot at the dark end of the field, but why would you want the 1600 ISO in the sunny part? BUT, if you don't put the ISO so high, when the action switches quickly to shadow, your shutter speed will crash and you'll get blurry shots.

If you go M and hard set your aperture wide open and shutter to some minimum, then your ISO will vary wildly and you could have gotten a better shot with lower ISO. The trouble is, the action moves quickly from light to shadow and there's no way to react quickly enough.

The trouble with Auto ISO in Av mode now is that the camera chooses changing ISO before changing shutter speed and I hate that. Shutter speed doesn't affect image quality much after it reaches a minimum threshold for getting the shot, but ISO does.

If I could tell the camera to ONLY change ISO to keep the shutter speed from dipping below, say 1/1000, otherwise change shutter speed, that would solve my problem of constantly having to make small adjustments. As it stands now, I'm constantly making adjustments to minimize ISO and still get the shot.

That would be very powerful and be extremely helpful to sports togs who deal with rapidly changing lighting conditions.

 

[briansquibb]

If I could tell the camera to ONLY change ISO to keep the shutter speed from dipping below, say 1/1000, otherwise change shutter speed, that would solve my problem of constantly having to make small adjustments. As it stands now, I'm constantly making adjustments to minimize ISO and still get the shot.

That would be very powerful and be extremely helpful to sports togs who deal with rapidly changing lighting conditions.

As I said - this can be done in series 1 bodies

 

[smirkypants]

As I said - this can be done in series 1 bodies

As far as I know, Squibby, safety shift only affects the primary variable in Av or Tv mode, right? If you set it to TV, your aperture will vary and that's the last thing I want. I want that lens wide open. If you set it to Av, all safety shift does it shift the aperture just in case. I've got my 1D4 right here. Maybe I'm missing something? I'd be thrilled if someone knew what custom function I pushed to make my dreams come true.

 

[sarangiman]

The trouble with Auto ISO in Av mode now is that the camera chooses changing ISO before changing shutter speed and I hate that.

Really? Doesn't it 1st select the minimum shutter speed (settable between 1/250 - 1sec), then change the ISO? Or are you complaining about the fact that you can't set that minimum shutter speed at 1/1000? If the latter, I agree; there should be no limits on the minimum shutter speed setting, as there's no cost to getting ridding of this limit (that I can think of).

If you could set the minimum shutter speed to 1/1000, then in very bright conditions, in Av mode, the camera would shoot at higher shutter speed to keep ISO down, correct?

So your only complaint is that minimum shutter speed setting is limited between 1/250 - 1s. Am I understanding correctly now?

Man I wish these cameras were programmable...

 

[briansquibb]

As I said - this can be done in series 1 bodies

As far as I know, Squibby, safety shift only affects the primary variable in Av or Tv mode, right? If you set it to TV, your aperture will vary and that's the last thing I want. I want that lens wide open. If you set it to Av, all safety shift does it shift the aperture just in case. I've got my 1D4 right here. Maybe I'm missing something? I'd be thrilled if someone knew what custom function I pushed to make my dreams come true.

I cant remember the details - but from memory you set it in av mode with tv limits and then when the limits are hit safety shift jumps in and changes the iso. I dont think this is using auto iso obviously as this would be constantly changing.

I am taking pictures of karts today so there is an opportunity for me to try it out.

 

[wickidwombat]

I never found safety shift particularly good, maybe i did something wrong but I just ended up turning it off

 

[briansquibb]

I never found safety shift particularly good, maybe i did something wrong but I just ended up turning it off

I dont use it either as I dont have a need for it. However smirky is looking for a solution to meet his needs and this may be a way round it.

If anyoone else has used this approach (told to me by a pro when I got the 1D4) please feel free to chime in.

 

[briansquibb]

As I said - this can be done in series 1 bodies

As far as I know, Squibby, safety shift only affects the primary variable in Av or Tv mode, right? If you set it to TV, your aperture will vary and that's the last thing I want. I want that lens wide open. If you set it to Av, all safety shift does it shift the aperture just in case. I've got my 1D4 right here. Maybe I'm missing something? I'd be thrilled if someone knew what custom function I pushed to make my dreams come true.

OK I got it working the way you wanted it.

Objective: Set set a minimum and maximum shutter speed. In Av mode if the shutter speed dropped below the mimimum then the ISO would be bumped up so that the minimum was reached again.

Method:

- enable safety shift (iso speed) C.Fn 1 - 8
- set shutter speed range C.fn 1 - 12 ( set the minimum shutter speed )

In the field:

- set the Av value
- set the base iso value (can be L so then it acts as auto iso)
- set exp comp as needed (yes we get exp comp and auto iso this way)

I was photographing karts this morning so I set the minimum Tv to 1/500, Av at f/4 and iso100 which was about the critical point. ISO went up and down as expected, Tv went above 500 when the cloud lifted

So there you are - how to get auto iso with iso and Av limits set.

 

[smirkypants]

OK I got it working the way you wanted it.

Objective: Set set a minimum and maximum shutter speed. In Av mode if the shutter speed dropped below the mimimum then the ISO would be bumped up so that the minimum was reached again.

Method:

- enable safety shift (iso speed) C.Fn 1 - 8
- set shutter speed range C.fn 1 - 12 ( set the minimum shutter speed )

In the field:

- set the Av value
- set the base iso value (can be L so then it acts as auto iso)
- set exp comp as needed (yes we get exp comp and auto iso this way)

I was photographing karts this morning so I set the minimum Tv to 1/500, Av at f/4 and iso100 which was about the critical point. ISO went up and down as expected, Tv went above 500 when the cloud lifted

So there you are - how to get auto iso with iso and Av limits set.

Awesome. I have a polo match to shoot in a couple of hours. I'll let you know how it works. I just looked through the custom functions on the 5D3 and it doesn't exist there, though. Of course the lowly d7000 lets you set a minimum shutter speed in Av up to 1/4000.

 

[wockawocka]

I can certainly see why a person might need some exposure correction, it seems like a unnecessary omission to me. I certainly plan to use the manual/ auto iso setting, and if I'd like to expose to the right, or correct a backlit situation, EC would be very useful.

Does the D1 X have it?

I would guess not - EC in M mode is a bit of a contradiction. However FEC works ....

Surely using Auto ISO in manual mode makes it an auto mode? Thus the need for exposure compensation (White walls, black suits)...etc.