Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
2,379
1,063
Davidson, NC
ahsanford said:
Those comments imply the point of mirrorless is to (a) be smaller and/or (b) perform at a lower level than a proper FF SLR.

When you consider that an EVF-based rig gives you...

  • Handheld liveview with the camera held up to your eye -- not held 12" away like an iPad
  • Proper MF focus-assist without needing to buy a 1-series rig to get manual focusing screens
  • Amplify light in dark rooms, allowing MF peaking use of AF lenses in really dark places
  • No mirror slap for 100% of your shooting in realtime -- not just for MLU tripod work
  • Max burst rate no longer constrained by mirrorbox design -- potentially very high fps burst rates in low/mid-level FF bodies
...one could climb over the first-glance size appeal and see that mirrorless is not solely about smaller or less functionality. In some cases, it mirrorless actually do more than an SLR.
I still principally shoot with an SLR and my other camera is a mirrorless one from Apple. ::) So I'm no mirrorless fanboy -- but I look forward to the day that I can get mirrorless advantages with my EF lenses in FF with a Canon first party AF camera.

I use one of those Apple mirrorless cameras, too, in addition to my G7X II. For travel, I find the convenience of the latter to more than outweigh the compromises involved. And the former has the advantage of being with me always.

It sounds like I might want to get a FF mirrorless camera by 2024. The challenges of taking pictures of the eclipse with my T3i, mainly having to use live view in bright sunlight for composing and focusing through an 18-stop filter, suggest that live view through a viewfinder can be handy.
 
Upvote 0

AlanF

Desperately seeking birds
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
12,441
22,880
neuroanatomist said:
AlanF said:
neuroanatomist said:
AlanF said:
I use EF lenses with an adapter on an M5 and have no complaints. The focus consistency is remarkable, and the speed seems OK. Don Haines did not explain why there should be speed or compatibility problems. .

One would think there would be no incompatibility with an OEM adapter. But recall...with an EF lens mounted on the EOS M, M2, or M3 via the Canon EF mount adapter, when using AI Servo, the camera would lock focus after the first shot in the burst, instead of continuing to focus between shots as AI Servo should (and does on those bodies with EF-M lenses). So in Canon's own recent history, there's an example of system-intrinsic focus issues with an adapter.

Does that happen too with the M5 and M6?

No, they fixed it...and it only took until the 4th generation. ::)

Exodus 20:5 King James Version
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
 
Upvote 0
Everyone has different needs, so here's my $0.02 as I'm sure there's others who can relate.

Let's address the never ending quest for better and better bodies with an age old fact -- LENSES far outweigh BODIES when it comes to results. They are a bigger part of the equation. No crappy kit lens can ever get the same portrait look that my 70-200 2.8 II can. Doesn't matter if I have the best and newest bodies on the market.

Canon, as we all know and even Nikon and Sony people can mostly admit, has the best glass. Sure, they can get edged out here and there on sharpness, or maybe speed or some other factor. But, when you combine speed, IQ, price, and all factors, Canon is a clear winner. Canon 24-70 2.8 II is street pricing from authorized dealers in the $1,500 range. This lens beats up the Sony and Nikon equivalents easily...just one example. The 16-35 is another example, both he F4 and 2.8...The 70-200 2.8 II, Nikon has finally matched it, but for $1,000 more!!!!

Now, Canon is not the most cutting edge on bodies. Most can admit that here. They'll justify it 100 different ways, some legit, some are a stretch. But the fact is, you can get better bodies elsewhere. However, in the end, when you take a great lens and a decent body - you get good results. The competition has great bodies and decent glass that gets good results.


Ok, all that said -- this is what *I* do...

I own a set of 2.8 L glass and some good primes. Right now, I run a 6D. That's it.

Here's why.

The 6D is a very high value body. It accomplishes what I need for about 95% of my uses. I'm not a professional photographer. 6D can give amazing portraits, landscapes, macro, even some sports or action if you can time with your finger. For my day to day, week to week regular photography - it is more than what most people need.

Remember, there was a time when 20mp was considered amazing super high resolution....

I'm not here to promote the 6D. My point is, make an accurate assessment of what your real, day to day NEEDS are. That's what I did. And for my needs, the 6D is pretty darn good. It will serve me well until Canon offers up a better value full frame like the D850 or A7R3.

In assessing my needs, I asked myself the following --

How often do I really, truly need 10-14fps?

How often do I really, truly need 50mp?

How often do I shoot landscape with the intent to print wall sized?

How often do I really, truly need an AF system that can track a football player going down field?

How often do I get paid to shoot an event where I need dual slots to avoid a disaster if memory card fails? (I'm not a pro, but will pick up some small work here and there)


In MY uses....that is less than 5-6 times a year, if that. Again, scenarios where the above features are a MUST to get the images. Not scenarios where it would be nice to have, but scenarios where it's needed. Very few.


So what I do is, I rent the 5DSR, 1DX2 or more often the 7D2, or 5D4 depending on what I need for the occasion. Renting is not cheap, but it is far, far, far cheaper than buying any one of these cameras and eating their depreciation. These are expensive bodies which are updated by Canon every three years.

At 20mp, I can capture stunning landscapes that no one, except for maybe some rich person who has an 8K monitor, can even view at full resolution. So unless I'm going to print huge which is very rare for me and I bet rare for most people, I don't need a 5DS. I also don't need to blaze away at 14fps. My most commonly needed camera is a 5D4. This is because it has better AF for moving people like a wedding (not sports), dual slots, and more speed than the 6D for events. I'll rent this body for 3 day or 5...doesn't cost much and I get results when I need it.


The last higher dollar Canon I had was the 5D3. Great body and for its time a good value compared to the competition. I sold it a little before the 5D4 came out. My "cost of ownership" was approx $700 for 3 years. That's a little over $230 per year and that's pretty cheap. I didn't do the same thing again with the 5D4, because I don't feel resale will be anywhere as good sometime in 2019-2020 given what the competition is putting out and I don't want to deal with the process.

Instead, I just run a cheap 6D - I get quality that 99% of people cannot appreciate anyway and I get out of the never ending upgrade cycle that is costly.

People who buy and keep bodies have to be satisfied with them for a long time (6-7 years or more), otherwise that's a lot of cash to put into something that depreciates so quickly. Lenses hold value more, aren't updated as often, and again, are the most important factor in IQ and achieving the look you want. So it is better to own glass, and rent bodies, than own bodies, and rent glass in my opinion.

Sure, the Sony A7R3 is a killer. But their lenses are not that great. It isn't worth spending that much money on that body for me. In 2 years or less, the A7R4 will be out rendering this thing ancient and depreciating it more. Sony glass isn't terrible, but it costs considerably more than Canon and at the very best, in some examples, only equals it. The grass is not greener on the other side. Canon might be a bit conservative, perhaps even stingy with specs, but in the end - the IQ is at least as good, if not better. Despite the "worse" sensor, and less specs in bodies. It's the final result that matters.


If you're not made of money to be upgrading bodies constantly, or not a full time working pro -- I think either owning one body and being happy with it, or using the rental approach as-needed like I do does better for costs and results long term.

I know that I do not exceed even $900 in rentals per year. Not even close. That's $1,800 every 2 years at the worst which is an overestimate. Still less than buying a semi-pro body new and owning. I get to then use specialized cameras that dominate for the intended purpose.

If you buy and sell, the cost comes down, but - the problem with Canon is, do you buy and sell off a sports camera, a high res body and others every cycle? If you add up the loss per camera - it becomes a lot. The cost of ownership goes up quite a bit. Nikon D850 is a real first in a sense, in that their users will now have a camera that covers a lot of other bodies all in one. It's a high rez landscape and portrait camera, an event camera, a sports camera, wildlife. Not much it can't do. That's a high value and worth the $3,300 asking price. It reminds me of the leap the 5D3 was in its time.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 11, 2015
1,054
0
OSOK said:
Everyone has different needs, so here's my $0.02 as I'm sure there's others who can relate.

Let's address the never ending quest for better and better bodies with an age old fact -- LENSES far outweigh BODIES when it comes to results. They are a bigger part of the equation. No crappy kit lens can ever get the same portrait look that my 70-200 2.8 II can. Doesn't matter if I have the best and newest bodies on the market.

Canon, as we all know and even Nikon and Sony people can mostly admit, has the best glass. Sure, they can get edged out here and there on sharpness, or maybe speed or some other factor. But, when you combine speed, IQ, price, and all factors, Canon is a clear winner. Canon 24-70 2.8 II is street pricing from authorized dealers in the $1,500 range. This lens beats up the Sony and Nikon equivalents easily...just one example. The 16-35 is another example, both he F4 and 2.8...The 70-200 2.8 II, Nikon has finally matched it, but for $1,000 more!!!!

Now, Canon is not the most cutting edge on bodies. Most can admit that here. They'll justify it 100 different ways, some legit, some are a stretch. But the fact is, you can get better bodies elsewhere. However, in the end, when you take a great lens and a decent body - you get good results. The competition has great bodies and decent glass that gets good results.


Ok, all that said -- this is what *I* do...

I own a set of 2.8 L glass and some good primes. Right now, I run a 6D. That's it.

Here's why.

The 6D is a very high value body. It accomplishes what I need for about 95% of my uses. I'm not a professional photographer. 6D can give amazing portraits, landscapes, macro, even some sports or action if you can time with your finger. For my day to day, week to week regular photography - it is more than what most people need.

Remember, there was a time when 20mp was considered amazing super high resolution....

I'm not here to promote the 6D. My point is, make an accurate assessment of what your real, day to day NEEDS are. That's what I did. And for my needs, the 6D is pretty darn good. It will serve me well until Canon offers up a better value full frame like the D850 or A7R3.

In assessing my needs, I asked myself the following --

How often do I really, truly need 10-14fps?

How often do I really, truly need 50mp?

How often do I shoot landscape with the intent to print wall sized?

How often do I really, truly need an AF system that can track a football player going down field?

How often do I get paid to shoot an event where I need dual slots to avoid a disaster if memory card fails? (I'm not a pro, but will pick up some small work here and there)


In MY uses....that is less than 5-6 times a year, if that. Again, scenarios where the above features are a MUST to get the images. Not scenarios where it would be nice to have, but scenarios where it's needed. Very few.


So what I do is, I rent the 5DSR, 1DX2 or more often the 7D2, or 5D4 depending on what I need for the occasion. Renting is not cheap, but it is far, far, far cheaper than buying any one of these cameras and eating their depreciation. These are expensive bodies which are updated by Canon every three years.

At 20mp, I can capture stunning landscapes that no one, except for maybe some rich person who has an 8K monitor, can even view at full resolution. So unless I'm going to print huge which is very rare for me and I bet rare for most people, I don't need a 5DS. I also don't need to blaze away at 14fps. My most commonly needed camera is a 5D4. This is because it has better AF for moving people like a wedding (not sports), dual slots, and more speed than the 6D for events. I'll rent this body for 3 day or 5...doesn't cost much and I get results when I need it.


The last higher dollar Canon I had was the 5D3. Great body and for its time a good value compared to the competition. I sold it a little before the 5D4 came out. My "cost of ownership" was approx $700 for 3 years. That's a little over $230 per year and that's pretty cheap. I didn't do the same thing again with the 5D4, because I don't feel resale will be anywhere as good sometime in 2019-2020 given what the competition is putting out and I don't want to deal with the process.

Instead, I just run a cheap 6D - I get quality that 99% of people cannot appreciate anyway and I get out of the never ending upgrade cycle that is costly.

People who buy and keep bodies have to be satisfied with them for a long time (6-7 years or more), otherwise that's a lot of cash to put into something that depreciates so quickly. Lenses hold value more, aren't updated as often, and again, are the most important factor in IQ and achieving the look you want. So it is better to own glass, and rent bodies, than own bodies, and rent glass in my opinion.

Sure, the Sony A7R3 is a killer. But their lenses are not that great. It isn't worth spending that much money on that body for me. In 2 years or less, the A7R4 will be out rendering this thing ancient and depreciating it more. Sony glass isn't terrible, but it costs considerably more than Canon and at the very best, in some examples, only equals it. The grass is not greener on the other side. Canon might be a bit conservative, perhaps even stingy with specs, but in the end - the IQ is at least as good, if not better. Despite the "worse" sensor, and less specs in bodies. It's the final result that matters.


If you're not made of money to be upgrading bodies constantly, or not a full time working pro -- I think either owning one body and being happy with it, or using the rental approach as-needed like I do does better for costs and results long term.

I know that I do not exceed even $900 in rentals per year. Not even close. That's $1,800 every 2 years at the worst which is an overestimate. Still less than buying a semi-pro body new and owning. I get to then use specialized cameras that dominate for the intended purpose.

If you buy and sell, the cost comes down, but - the problem with Canon is, do you buy and sell off a sports camera, a high res body and others every cycle? If you add up the loss per camera - it becomes a lot. The cost of ownership goes up quite a bit. Nikon D850 is a real first in a sense, in that their users will now have a camera that covers a lot of other bodies all in one. It's a high rez landscape and portrait camera, an event camera, a sports camera, wildlife. Not much it can't do. That's a high value and worth the $3,300 asking price. It reminds me of the leap the 5D3 was in its time.

You will have to pay me for reading this ^
 
Upvote 0
Sorry I did not read all the pages...

I am wondering too if I need to go to the new A7riii.
Really temptated by the eye focus feature.

Here are the 2 problems stopping me :
1- metabones adaptator seems not to control all canon lenses. Seems to be worst with sigma (I have the 35mm ART, the 50mm ART the 135 f2 L , the 100mm 2.8 L and the 24-70 f4). And more, metabones seems NOT to handle eye focus...
2- the two times reviewers posted raw files of the Sony, Focus was more on lips than on eyes (but reviewers were proud to promote the Sony performance..)
I love fast apertures, and perhaps eye detection on the Sony can’t be so efficient at f1.4...

So my options are to take a 5d mark 4 , jump to Sony, or wait a mirrorless from Canon.

Some says that dslr will die. Not sure what he does mean for a 5d4 owner in fact (and not sure it will happen)...

Thank for your advices.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 28, 2015
3,368
570
Patlezinc said:
Sorry I did not read all the pages...

I am wondering too if I need to go to the new A7riii.
Really temptated by the eye focus feature.

Here are the 2 problems stopping me :
1- metabones adaptator seems not to control all canon lenses. Seems to be worst with sigma (I have the 35mm ART, the 50mm ART the 135 f2 L , the 100mm 2.8 L and the 24-70 f4). And more, metabones seems NOT to handle eye focus...
2- the two times reviewers posted raw files of the Sony, Focus was more on lips than on eyes (but reviewers were proud to promote the Sony performance..)
I love fast apertures, and perhaps eye detection on the Sony can’t be so efficient at f1.4...

So my options are to take a 5d mark 4 , jump to Sony, or wait a mirrorless from Canon.

Some says that dslr will die. Not sure what he does mean for a 5d4 owner in fact (and not sure it will happen)...

Thank for your advices.

Apparently the Metabones V adapter is much superior than the Metabones IV, even when the IV has had all the updates. I think the only way to answer your questions is to hire one and try it out.
I have read that eye AF is not as efficient at f1.4 (maybe narrower apertures mask any deficiency with greater AF) but I always thought it was less about spot-on focus and more about following people as they move around.
 
Upvote 0
I finally read all 5d IV review, 300 pages of forums, a7 forums, etc.
Mirorless are not the paradise some says. It is sure.

5d costs 3800€ in France. Found one nearly new at 2500€ , I took it. Will receive Tuesday.
Was worried about the touch screen not moving but at the end, WiFi connection on an iPhone is a movable screen!

5d Will not beat others on the spec sheet, but will be very good to use I am sure.
And it is a Canon, so I trust the concept.
 
Upvote 0

Ozarker

Love, joy, and peace to all of good will.
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,935
4,337
The Ozarks
Jopa said:
unfocused said:
Cameras are just things, you're not in a relationship.

Cameras are things for sure, but you can be in a relationship with lenses :)

;D I consider the camera to be the Daisy Dukes and Halter. I consider what's underneath to be the lens. What's underneath lasts longer and is sexier too. ;D
 
Upvote 0
Still on the fence

So I was able to borrow a Sony a7rII from a friend who lent it to me for two weeks. It came with the Sony 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 35/2.8.

Impressions:
Body is much smaller for good and bad. I weighed the Sony+35 vs my Canon 5D + 35/2 and the former was half the weight. Holding the Sony was fine with a small lens. Not bad with the bigger 24-70 and 70-200 but definitely didn’t fit like the Canon.

Image files aren’t too far apart. Ive mostly been shooting indoors and shot the moon last night. That meant I was at iso 1600+ where the two cameras are very close.

Shot my daughter with the Sony 70-200 and Canon 70-200 both at f/4 and there was little to no difference between the files except skin tones and color in general is quite different even at same WB. Sony was a bit warmer - showed her bluish purple jacket with more purple in it. Canon showed it as more blue. I used a custom WB using the grey asphalt. Can’t post pix right now as at work.

One real frustration was autofocus. Eye AF on Sony really is awesome (though doesn’t seem to work on cats/dogs). I could not figure out how to simply set a focus point like I would on the Canon though.

Will post more as play with combo a bit more.
 
Upvote 0
CanonFanBoy said:
Jopa said:
unfocused said:
Cameras are just things, you're not in a relationship.

Cameras are things for sure, but you can be in a relationship with lenses :)

;D I consider the camera to be the Daisy Dukes and Halter. I consider what's underneath to be the lens. What's underneath lasts longer and is sexier too. ;D

Ha! I don't have a relationship with my lens, unless my 35mm ART learns to talk back when I curse its AF. My condition is more on the order of OCD.
 
Upvote 0
I ended up jumping ship; picked up my A7R III on Friday from BestBuy, piling up rewards points and using a 10% discount coupon I had, I was able to get it for about 2600 (thanks to some appliance purchases earlier in the year).

I am having some trouble getting used to the different ergonomics, and am keeping my Canon bodies for the time being to keep my EF and EF-S lenses going when I need to use them action-fast AF, but the A7R III is definitely giving me some usability benefits. Love the fact that all of my lenses, even my cheapo Rokinon 14mm 2.8 and EF-S 8mm fisheye, can now benefit from stabilization and focus peaking.

I only have one Sony native lens so far, a 24-70 2.8 (also bought with the 10% off), but it works a treat. I did not have the Canon 24-70 2.8 (I had the Tamron 24-70 2.8 IS Mk 1) so that lens was my logical starting point. Not in any hurry to replace my glass; I'll be able to use my Canon lenses on the Sony for anything but action, as they seem to focus pretty quickly and accurately, if a little slow.

Part of me still hopes Canon wakes up and creates an A7R III-competetive body soon, in which case my Sony will most likely be on used market, but as long Canon continues to dominate market share, I don't see them getting innovative in that way.
 
Upvote 0
Nov 17, 2011
5,514
17
Patlezinc said:
Sorry I did not read all the pages...

I am wondering too if I need to go to the new A7riii.
Really temptated by the eye focus feature.

Here are the 2 problems stopping me :
1- metabones adaptator seems not to control all canon lenses. Seems to be worst with sigma (I have the 35mm ART, the 50mm ART the 135 f2 L , the 100mm 2.8 L and the 24-70 f4). And more, metabones seems NOT to handle eye focus...
2- the two times reviewers posted raw files of the Sony, Focus was more on lips than on eyes (but reviewers were proud to promote the Sony performance..)
I love fast apertures, and perhaps eye detection on the Sony can’t be so efficient at f1.4...

So my options are to take a 5d mark 4 , jump to Sony, or wait a mirrorless from Canon.

Some says that dslr will die. Not sure what he does mean for a 5d4 owner in fact (and not sure it will happen)...

Thank for your advices.

I disagree. Eye AF works best with fast primes, especially at f1.4. How do I know??? I use my a9 + FE50f1.4 everyday.

Have you try Sony Eye _AF?
 
Upvote 0
Well, I jumped...

Thought I would circle back to this thread I started and let you know I decided to move to the Sony a7rIII and, with one in hand, can offer some thoughts.

I did a LOT of research and was fortunate to borrow an a7rII to try. With that done, I purchased the a7rIII, metabones V adapter and the Sony FE 85/1.8 from BHphoto. They arrived Friday at 5pm and I threw them in the house before taking a flight out of town. Returned home Sunday at 1am, charged battery and crashed. Today, I've been playing with menus and the camera.

Body:
For good and bad, it is smaller. I put my hand strap on it which made it instantly more comfortable and will buy the RRS L plate which adds to the bottom. The camera is quite comfortable to hold and handle in landscape/horizontal orientation. I do find the finger placement a bit awkward in portrait/verticle but am quickly getting used to it. Battery life has been solid. Body is very customizable which is great and a pleasant change from Canon's 5DmkIII that I had been using for about 4 years.
The body is lighter which doesn't seem important until I put the Canon 24-105 on via the Metabones adapter and went out for some test shots. Slung the camera over my neck/shoulder as I would the 5D and was pleasantly surprised at the lack of pressure over the clavicle area. It felt much lighter and less of something I was aware of carrying.

Autofocus
I have to say, the biggest surprise to me is EyeAF. I didn't know much about it before and started reading about as I researched the Sony. Still, I didn't get how powerful it was. Simply put, the camera finds your subject's eye and nails focus Every Single Time. That's good in and of itself but it also means that you no longer need to compose based on lining up a red square with your subject. You are now free to compose your shot however you like and essentially ignore the person/focus while knowing their eye will be nailed. Shot the kids tonight as we lit candles for Hanukkah and the results were awesome.

Lenses
The 85/1.8 is really nice and I will happily give up my Canon 100/2 for it. All of my Canon lenses work with the Sony (which is really amazing). Still haven't pushed any lenses to test autofocus speed as I'm trying to get used to the 85 for a better sense of native vs adapted lenses. I can see myself dumping the Canon 17-40/4, 24-105/4 and 70-200/4 for the Sony 12-24/4, 24-105/4 and 100-400 though.

Software
The menu system is LONG and needlessly confusing at times but makes the camera ridiculously customizable.

Files
Processing in LR Classic 7.1. The files actually look great on the Sony LCD screen and in LR before Adobe processes the preview files. Not sure what Adobe is doing but the files are much flatter than the Canon ones. They also have a ridiculous amount of leeway when it comes to pushing exposure and shadows. I read this before but it's very different to actually work with the files and see how easy they are to work with without 'falling apart' like the Canon ones are prone to do.

It's only been a day of use but I really am pleased with the Sony. This is their third iteration of the a7r series which feels like a mature product now (just like the Canon 5DmkIII did when I bought it). Between the improved sensor, customizability and eyeAF, it really is a marked improvement over the Canon I had and the ones on offer now.

I realize this is a Canon forum and I may get pummeled for this but thought it worth circling back and reporting my experience so far.
 
Upvote 0
Re: Well, I jumped...

eoren1 said:
Software
The menu system is LONG and needlessly confusing at times but makes the camera ridiculously customizable.

Files
Processing in LR Classic 7.1. The files actually look great on the Sony LCD screen and in LR before Adobe processes the preview files. Not sure what Adobe is doing but the files are much flatter than the Canon ones. They also have a ridiculous amount of leeway when it comes to pushing exposure and shadows. I read this before but it's very different to actually work with the files and see how easy they are to work with without 'falling apart' like the Canon ones are prone to do.

Long time Sony user here - and Canon DSLR since forever before that - do yourself a favor and use Capture One for Sony. I use Photoshop all day for retouching but their raw file conversions are absolutely terrible. Just as the DR you are finding to be night and day compared to Canon - the raw conversion is like that between Capture One and Adobe.

Yes the menus are different, but one you learn them and make any customizations you almost never spend much time in them again.
 
Upvote 0