Canon 5D3 vs 7D for birding thoughts

[kirispupis]

I currently own a 5D3 and a 7D. I still have the 5D2 my 5D3 is meant to replace and am waiting for the market to clear a bit before selling it.

Yesterday I photographed a pair of hooded mergansers that I had earlier photographed with my 7D. The lens was the same - 70-200/2.8 II + 2x III, and the location was exactly the same. I also photographed the birds at the same exact location in the pond with both cameras. The only difference was the shots were taken several weeks apart.

I was curious to compare them, so I took two photos of the same merganser at the same location and compared them. The crop from the 7D made its version larger, but the following is what I noticed with my very unscientific experiment (partly due to laziness and partly because there are flaws in this test I will not post the crops). Here are two different shots from each shoot, but note that these are not the ones I compared. They won't tell you much about the quality of the cameras but they'll give you an idea of the conditions.

7D - http://500px.com/photo/5118931
5D3 - http://500px.com/photo/6268179

- The 5D3 had a huge advantage in noise. I had taken the 7D shots at ISO 800, while the 5D3 shots were taken at ISO 1600. Nevertheless the 7D had very noticeable noise while the 5D3 was significantly cleaner.
- The 5D3 had far more detail in the shot. I could see far more details in the feathers than the 7D - even when the crop was taken into account.
- The 5D3 seems to have better dynamic range. With the 7D the black parts of the bird were solid black, while with the 5D3 there was a lot more detail there. This may also have been an exposure issue.

When I look at this, I am seeing really no reason to keep the 7D. Other than having two more fps, the 5D3 outperforms it in every aspect - even when the crop is taken into account. Perhaps this may not be true for ISO 100, but for bird photography that is extremely rare.

My question is to those who also have both cameras. What have you noticed in the difference? I am not looking for theoretical discussions here but practical ones from other individuals who have used both cameras.

This is just a single test and ideally I should test both cameras on a tripod with the same subject at the same time, but I am curious if others have noticed the same thing. At this point I am strongly leaning towards selling the 7D and going back to a single body, with the proceeds going towards funding a future 600/4 II.

 

[briansquibb]

I swapped a 7D for the 1D4 for sports shooting - been the best buy for that.

 

[Loswr]

My question is to those who also have both cameras. What have you noticed in the difference? I am not looking for theoretical discussions here but practical ones from other individuals who have used both cameras.

This is just a single test and ideally I should test both cameras on a tripod with the same subject at the same time, but I am curious if others have noticed the same thing.

I don't have a 5DIII, but I did a controlled test of the 7D vs/ the 5DII, and came to the conclusion that after cropping the 5DII image to the FoV of the 7D, the 7D image had a slight edge for sharpness, and the 5DII had a slight edge for noise - overall sort of a wash. The other shortcomings of the 5DII precluded it's use for birds/wildlife, but those issues have been fixed by the 5DIII.

What I did not test is further cropping - many times I need to crop my 7D images by 25-40% - what would that look like with a 5DII/5DIII image, and would the resulting final resolution (4-5 MP) be sufficient?

When my 1D X shows up, I'll likely to a similar controlled comparison with the 7D. Currently, though, I'm planning to keep the 7D after getting the 1D X.

 

[aginggeek]

I plan to keep both my 7D and my 5D3.

The 7D has a built-in flash. Sure, the flash isn't that great, and wide zoom lens can block it. But I can pop it up in a second, as opposed to close to a minute to attach a speedlight. If I brought one with me, that is. I can also use the 7D's built-in flash for AF assist.

It's a lot faster to switch between two lenses if they're on two different bodies.

And finally I have a super-wide EF-S 10-22 for the 7D. Yes, someday I'll get a regular EF super-wide -- but first my credit card has to recover from the shock of the 5D!

 

[kirispupis]

I have taken two bodies on my last two trips - to Uzbekistan/Tajikistan and to China. At the time I felt it was very useful. I generally kept a TS-E 24 II on my 5D2 and a 70-200/2.8 II to my 7D. This allowed me to quickly take photos near and far. However, looking through my photos from those trips I do wonder if this really helped my photography.

The problem is I travel with my wife and two kids and I therefore have a feeling two bodies cause me to rush more than if I just took my time with one. I also have shots where I pushed my 7D too much. Had I taken it with the 5D2 the shot would have been better.

I do believe for pro jobs such as weddings two cameras are essential, but for my travel purposes I am beginning to think they are not.

The main question though is whether I am giving up anything wildlife-photography wise through losing the crop the 7D offers. So far on initial inspection this does not appear to be the case, but I am curious to hear other opinions.

 

[keithfullermusic]

I have neither, but my guess is that a good crop sensor camera is going to be better than a FF camera simply because of reach.

I have a 100-400 and use it with my 50D, and the images with that thing are superb (even up ISO 500). the 100-400 is actually like a 160-640mm on the 50D. If you have a FF camera and have a 600mm lens you might have to take out a second mortgage on your house.

I am planning on getting a 5Diii eventually, but I will definitely use my 50D when taking bird shots or other things that are far away.

 

[briansquibb]

I have neither, but my guess is that a good crop sensor camera is going to be better than a FF camera simply because of reach.

I have a 100-400 and use it with my 50D, and the images with that thing are superb (even up ISO 500). the 100-400 is actually like a 160-640mm on the 50D. If you have a FF camera and have a 600mm lens you might have to take out a second mortgage on your house.

I am planning on getting a 5Diii eventually, but I will definitely use my 50D when taking bird shots or other things that are far away.

I think perhaps you meant that "but my guess is that a good crop sensor camera is going to be cheaper than a FF camera simply because of reach"

The longest reach is from the 1D4, 1.3 crop bodies because they focus at F/8

 

[RLPhoto]

I love the 7D's AF. It was terrible at first to use and missed alot of photos until i tweaked the C-Fn and now is superb.

I always use AF-expansion and its the greatest thing since a certain food that can be sliced. ;D

 

[CanineCandidsByL]

I'm finding the 5Dm3 comparable or better than the 7d. The number of pixels is roughly a wash vs the crop unless you can fill the frame of the 5Dm3 where it pretty much wins hand down.....except for the price, the fps, and the flash. The flash can be quick use or can act as a controller for other flashes. Also I believe the HDMI is superior on the 7d (full output?), but I'm not positive.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the 7d for those on a budget or the 5dm3 for those with deeper pockets.

 

[katwil]

Two reasons for holding on to the 7D could include: 1) your desire not to spend a lot of time cropping mk iii images and 2) the ability to focus on your subject with the mk iii. If your subject is too far away to accurately focus on it with the mk iii, cropping down to an out-of-focus bird serves no purpose.

In full disclosure, I have neither of your bodies, but it’s still a similar good crop body vs. better FF body discussion.

 

[briansquibb]

I'm finding the 5Dm3 comparable or better than the 7d. The number of pixels is roughly a wash vs the crop unless you can fill the frame of the 5Dm3 where it pretty much wins hand down.....except for the price, the fps, and the flash. The flash can be quick use or can act as a controller for other flashes. Also I believe the HDMI is superior on the 7d (full output?), but I'm not positive.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the 7d for those on a budget or the 5dm3 for those with deeper pockets.

Flash for birding?

 

[dr croubie]

Despite the loss of megapixels, and moreso pixels-on-target, a 1D4 is definitely an upgrade to the 7D for wildlife, the fps, iq, and f/8 all trump it, even taking cropping into account (more if you count in less cropping if you're T/Cing at f/8)

But now comparing the 5D3 (which unfortunately, i don't have ... yet). You're still getting more megapixels, you're getting a lot nicer looking pixels at that. But you've got less pixels-on-target than 7D and 1D4. You've got sort-of better AF (more points, but no f/8), and less fps (is 6 not enough?).
Also, the 5D3 is running about the same price as a used 1D4. Between those two, it's a very very tought call.

Until the direct-comparison reviews filter through, we can't know if cropping a 5D3 beats a 1D4, or if cropping either beats a 7D. But my guess is that it's going to be very very close. Don't forget that the 5D3 is about 2-3 years younger than the 7D and 1D4. So maybe 5D3 will win comparing to those two. But the 7D2 should be out by the end of this year (or the dedicated wildlife APS-H 10fps 50pt-AF with 10 f/8 points 3D? I can dream can't I?), and then the balance might tip back away from the 5D3.

I'd say that for the price, 7D is good. For double that price, between a 5D3 and 1D4, it's probably a tough call (i'm glad I don't have the money so I don't have to make the decision).

 

[dr croubie]

I'm finding the 5Dm3 comparable or better than the 7d. The number of pixels is roughly a wash vs the crop unless you can fill the frame of the 5Dm3 where it pretty much wins hand down.....except for the price, the fps, and the flash. The flash can be quick use or can act as a controller for other flashes. Also I believe the HDMI is superior on the 7d (full output?), but I'm not positive.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the 7d for those on a budget or the 5dm3 for those with deeper pockets.

Flash for birding?

Clicky Linky for full article

OK, that's a setup, but having an onboard-flash controller like the 7D leaves your 550/580EX free to add more light on the subject...

 

[Pieces Of E]

Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings and increased ISO speeds up to 6400 expandable to 12800


Too bad the 7D missed out on the 'enhanced noise reduction' sensor, or there wouldn't be any posts to the contrary here or all over the web.

 

[kirispupis]

Thank you for the replies, but just to target this discussion.

- I am sure a 1D4 is much better than a 7D, but that is not the question. The question is whether it is worth keeping the 7D along with a 5D3.

- I already have both the 5D3 and the 7D, so it is not a question about which camera to purchase. I have already compared the two cameras - unscientifically - and found that even when the crop is considered the 5D3 produces much better images. My main question was whether anyone else who actually has both cameras has done a similar comparison.

 

[dr croubie]

- I am sure a 1D4 is much better than a 7D, but that is not the question. The question is whether it is worth keeping the 7D along with a 5D3.

Well, my outloud-musings were along the lines of:
1D4 >> 7D
1D4 ~= 5D3. (give or take a bit)
ergo, 5D3 > 7D.

Seeing as noone else seems to have compared the two directly, you could be the first? Forget the T/C to begin with, just the 70-200 on a tripod, same iso, aperture, shutterspeed, crop the 5D3 to 3568*2384 (that's still an 8x12" print at 300dpi), and see if 8.5MP really does beat the 7D's 18MP. That's a fair whack of difference in resolution, but if it's the choice between a noisy shot, a blurry shot, or a clean 8MP shot, the latter might win...

Personally, i wouldn't mind the 2fps loss and less pixels on target, in return for the extra IQ, FF sensor, higher-iso, 61pt AF. I can't justify the extra expense from selling my 7D for the 5D3, but seeing as you've already got both, the question is between keeping both bodies or selling the 7D for cash towards something else (like the front element of a 600/4, you'd have to fund the rest of the lens from elsewhere).

If you like having 2 bodies for backup, keep the 7D, but if it were me i'd be trading it for better glass...

 

[dlleno]

glad you are asking this! The 7D definitely has a higher pixel density than the 5d3. Hope this thread attracts some expert technical light on this and the following:

In terms of pixel density, the 5D3 is similar to the 40D, so one could conceivably compare these two in terms of resolution, when cropping the FF to match that of the 40D . In fact, If Canon were to introduce a 1.6 crop mode into the 5D3 like the D800 I'm assuming such a camera would be capable of producing 1.6x cropped images at 40D sizes. Except for the musings about Canon producing such a camera, I would like to know if this is accurate or if am I out in the weeds here.

Ignoring the ISO, noise, focus performance, shadow detail and other IQ differences between 5D3 and 40D, and concentrating on resolution, is it possible or meaningful to compare the following results:

1. Take the 5d3 image and crop it in PP to match the 1.6x crop sensor FOV. How would this IQ (resolution) compare with the same image photographed by the 40D using the same lens at the same focal length with no PP crop?

2. use today's 5d3 in the hypothetical 1.6x crop mode. How would this compare with the native 40D image.

I realize the original question is about 7D, but I thought it would be instructive to think of the problem in terms of equivalent pixel density -- where the cropped 5D image is probably more similar to a 40D image than it is a 7D image.

 

[ajay]

I've compared both

First things first, if you are going to test both camera's image quality for birds, you have to test them with the exact same subject from the exact same distance. If you do not, it's not a true comparison. At least when I am photographing birds, 99% of the time, I have to photograph them from a fixed distance unless they are tame birds.

In other words, in order to test both cameras fairly, you have to simulate taking the same exact shot standing from where you were when you took the image with the other camera.

I have done this test fairly with both cameras. Of course, the 5DM3's image is going to have a much wider FOV than the 7D in this scenario. In order to compare them identically, I cropped the 5DM3's image to match the FOV of the 7D. (This is something you would normally do in post-processing work.)

Here's the result taken at ISO 800, Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS II:

The 7D's image is on the left, 5DM3 is on the right.

Since this only shows part of the full image, you can't see that there is more noise with the 7D's image under certain color/shade variations. The bottom line is that the 7D's resolution is slightly better than the 5DM3's while the 5DM3's noise level is slightly lower. After applying NR and post-sharpening to both images, they are barely indistinguishable. This holds true from ISO 100 to ISO 3200.

Of course, this test is really only valid for subjects that you cannot move closer to. If you could move closer with the 5DM3 to frame it identically to the 7D, the 5DM3 would have better image quality. This test is only valid for photographing birds/wildlife in which you cannot move closer.

BTW, this test result is not too different from a similar test I did with the 7D, 5DM2 and 1D Mark IV. This is what you should expect from the 5DM3's sensor which is almost identical to the pixel resolution of the 5DM2.

Alan
www.iwishicouldfly.com

 

[candyman]

Clicky Linky for full article

OK, that's a setup, but having an onboard-flash controller like the 7D leaves your 550/580EX free to add more light on the subject...

Ouch. And the bird needs to make an appointment with the optometrist or optician.....


Seriously, what happens with the bird when you press the shutter?

 

[stilscream]

I too was trying to decide 600f4 ii and use my 7d for awhile longer or 1dx (1st FF) and some L lenses-- perhaps the newer 24-70, or 14 f2.8+ 50 f1.2 or 24mm f1.4+ 85mm 1.2 (I have the 35f1.4 and love it-- do like landscape as well as birding. The thinking here is that the zoos are easier places to take good pics of animals even though it feels like cheating. So, 1dx improves my speed, IQ, low light, weather sealing, and AF over my 7d and offers a 2nd body to have multiple cameras with different primes. The downside is I really can't get the pics in the wild still. 600mm is a need for birding. Trying to curb my spending below $15k. (Nice problem to have, I know, but this is money coming from my late parents house inheritence.) I really swing wildly back and forth daily or even hourly. The non f8 focusing of the 1dx makes me think the 600 might be the better way to go, but the versitility of the FF makes me reconsider.