canon 5ds at www.imaging-resource.com

[Loswr]

I guess what is most frustrating to me is the fact that most people arguing don't seem to even understand the difference between 13.4 stops of DR and 11.5 stops of DR at ISO 100. They also just say "less DR" in a general fashion and don't realize that DR changes as ISO changes.

I was led to believe that almost everyone takes pictures with bare silicon sensors at ISO 100. Is that not true?!?

 

[3kramd5]

I was led to believe that almost everyone takes pictures with bare silicon sensors at ISO 100. Is that not true?!?

They'd be fools. Bare silicon is substantially better at ISO64.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

I guess what is most frustrating to me is the fact that most people arguing don't seem to even understand the difference between 13.4 stops of DR and 11.5 stops of DR at ISO 100. They also just say "less DR" in a general fashion and don't realize that DR changes as ISO changes.

I was led to believe that almost everyone takes pictures with bare silicon sensors at ISO 100. Is that not true?!?

I do less than 1% of my photos at ISO100, but always use a camera out of the sensor, and a lens in front of it. 8)

 

[RLPhoto]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

 

[PureClassA]

No. Not everyone who "really needs 50MP" has bought or is buying a 645z. I would LOVE to own one, but the fact is they are $8500 before I buy a single lens, and the one I'd want for the work I would do with it is another $5000. I can't justify $13000 for my needs, nor can the vast majority of photographers. However, there are a lot more of us who CAN justify $3800 for the same resolution, understanding completely that we obviously will NOT be getting performance on par with the option that costs $5000 more for the body and $10000 more if you need a lens, which most everyone would...

As I've already discussed, 50MP that can mount native to my lens collection will be huge boon to my work, and I'm perfectly content with the fact that this is not a camera that is highly versatile outside a studio or well lit environments.

By the way, Canon DOES innovate. They just don't bring all their cool party tricks to production. We need to be clear on this distinction. Canon, for example, does have a sensor design patent just like Sony's with on board ADCs in a column parallel configuration. For one reason or another, we haven't seen it produced for the market yet. My suspicions are the enormous costs involved in retooling their entire fabrication process to make this happen. I think we will see it at some point, but not yet. Maybe a big surprise for the 1DX2? Who knows. The fact remains that Canon will continue to sell lots of DSLRs regardless and this new 5DSR generation is obviously no exception.

 

[Sporgon]

I guess what is most frustrating to me is the fact that most people arguing don't seem to even understand the difference between 13.4 stops of DR and 11.5 stops of DR at ISO 100. They also just say "less DR" in a general fashion and don't realize that DR changes as ISO changes.

I was led to believe that almost everyone takes pictures with bare silicon sensors at ISO 100. Is that not true?!?

I do less than 1% of my photos at ISO100, but always use a camera out of the sensor, and a lens in front of it. 8)

Well I do more than 99% of mine at 100 ISO, and my decision on whether or not to buy a 5Ds ( and I think with me it would be the 's', not 'sr'), would not be influenced one jot by the inclusion of a sony sensor with '13.4' stops range, or even a Canon one for that matter. The whole 13 vs 11 debate is Internet driven drivel. 11 is more than enough to cover everything but the light source itself. And guess what ? 13 is more than enough to cover everything but the light source itself. That about sums it up, with the exeption of a few people who want to severely under expose to record a little more detail in the light source and then push shadows, giving themselves the impression that they have more Dynamic range when infact it is more latitude.

 

[unfocused]

But when people start claiming, "This camera will be a failure unless it has more DR than previous Canon cameras," or, ""There's no market for this camera," there's going to be pushback.

I'd add to that ... when people start predicting doom and gloom for Canon because they're "not innovating" ... there's going to be pushback.

You guys pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Can't resist adding also that those who claim Canon isn't innovating conveniently ignore all the innovations they don't personally care about.

 

[zlatko]

I guess what is most frustrating to me is the fact that most people arguing don't seem to even understand the difference between 13.4 stops of DR and 11.5 stops of DR at ISO 100. They also just say "less DR" in a general fashion and don't realize that DR changes as ISO changes.

I was led to believe that almost everyone takes pictures with bare silicon sensors at ISO 100. Is that not true?!?

I do less than 1% of my photos at ISO100, but always use a camera out of the sensor, and a lens in front of it. 8)

Well I do more than 99% of mine at 100 ISO, and my decision on whether or not to buy a 5Ds ( and I think with me it would be the 's', not 'sr'), would not be influenced one jot by the inclusion of a sony sensor with '13.4' stops range, or even a Canon one for that matter. The whole 13 vs 11 debate is Internet driven drivel. 11 is more than enough to cover everything but the light source itself. And guess what ? 13 is more than enough to cover everything but the light source itself. That about sums it up, with the exeption of a few people who want to severely under expose to record a little more detail in the light source and then push shadows, giving themselves the impression that they have more Dynamic range when infact it is more latitude.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[privatebydesign]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

 

[PureClassA]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

Yes. For a while I was worried the 42MP Nokia Smartphone was winning the sensor wars.... :

 

[privatebydesign]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

Yes. For a while I was worried the 42MP Nokia Smartphone was winning the sensor wars.... :

You might well roll your eyes, just look through my posting history to see the battles I have had trying to point out the simple concept that all pixels are not equal.

 

[PureClassA]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

Yes. For a while I was worried the 42MP Nokia Smartphone was winning the sensor wars.... :

You might well roll your eyes, just look through my posting history to see the battles I have had trying to point out the simple concept that all pixels are not equal.

And let us not soon forget the powerhouse professional's choice of the 42MP Sigma Merrill Foven

 

[RLPhoto]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

I don't understand why others would peck you at that fact.

 

[privatebydesign]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

I don't understand why others would peck you at that fact.

Neither do I.

 

[privatebydesign]

No surprise the Pentax 645z is still resolution king out of these 3.

And for anybody with half a brain that is no surprise at all. I have said for ever, and been criticized for it regularly, sensor area trumps pretty much everything, there will always be a difference between APS and 135 format cameras, and that is just as applicable to the difference between 135 and 'medium format' sensor sizes.

If you need MF then 135 will not do, just as if you need 135 then APS will not do. For the vast majority of people, the vast majority of time APS is more than capable of delivering the IQ and image characteristics we actually need.

Yes. For a while I was worried the 42MP Nokia Smartphone was winning the sensor wars.... :

You might well roll your eyes, just look through my posting history to see the battles I have had trying to point out the simple concept that all pixels are not equal.

And let us not soon forget the powerhouse professional's choice of the 42MP Sigma Merrill Foven

Ah the joys of marketing, even if you count the native 14.8MP three times, which they do, I still don't get how they are allowed to call it 46MP, but there you go, caveat emptor.

 

[VirtualRain]

I am not OK with "If you are not happy, hide yourself" remarks

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, everyone is certainly welcome to express their opinion. If someone were to say, "I am not interested in this camera unless it has more DR than previous Canon cameras," or, "I am unhappy with this camera because it doesn't meet my needs," no one should argue the point. But when people start claiming, "This camera will be a failure unless it has more DR than previous Canon cameras," or, ""There's no market for this camera," there's going to be pushback. When an individual has made such claims for the past several Canon releases – which have been commercial successes – they simply end up looking foolish. If you want to condone foolishness, that's your prerogative.

But when people start claiming, "This camera will be a failure unless it has more DR than previous Canon cameras," or, ""There's no market for this camera," there's going to be pushback.

I'd add to that ... when people start predicting doom and gloom for Canon because they're "not innovating" ... there's going to be pushback.

But when people start claiming, "This camera will be a failure unless it has more DR than previous Canon cameras," or, ""There's no market for this camera," there's going to be pushback.

I'd add to that ... when people start predicting doom and gloom for Canon because they're "not innovating" ... there's going to be pushback.

You guys pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Can't resist adding also that those who claim Canon isn't innovating conveniently ignore all the innovations they don't personally care about.

I'd like some push-back on reply #76

 

[unfocused]

I'd like some push-back on reply #76

Sure.

However, Canon seems stuck in a rut with their sensor technology - unable to innovate or even push their current tech in substantive ways.

Dual Pixel seems pretty innovative to me. Is this offered by Sony?

One one hand, Sony's got an amazing rage of sensors from 12MP and 400K ISO to 35MP with well controlled noise.

I haven't personally used any of the Sony's, but from the test results I've seen, I'm not sure I would agree that Sony is any better at controlling noise than Canon. They have used low megapixel sensors to improve noise performance at high ISO and their high megapixel sensors don't seem to test out all that great. Nothing unusually innovative there – probably because physics is a stubborn thing.

And on the other hand, Smartphones with "good enough" image quality, integrated connectivity, editing, sharing and touch screens are eating their low-end lunch...

The only thing I would disagree with there, is that all the other camera manufacturers have done an equally lousy job of integrating basic connectivity and touch technology into their cameras. They all should be embarrassed by that and they deserve the market losses they are all suffering.

But I think anyone that really needs 50MP, already has a medium format camera like the 645Z. Do you think all the MF guys are suddenly going to dump their systems and buy a 5DS? No... Not with the results this camera is producing... No way. So who's going to buy this? People that have always dreamed of shooting with a MF system but couldn't afford it? Jeez... these folks are in for some disappointment.

You might be right. But I would be willing to bet that Canon did some market research before bringing the latest models to market. The pre-sales seem pretty strong, so someone must be buying them.

I'll be surprised if Canon is still around in another 20 years if they keep going like this.

I'd would sooner bet on Canon and Nikon, both of whom have weathered downturns in the market many times before, than I would on Sony. I've invested in Canon in part because I do think they will be around for another 20 years or so (I'm just hoping I am as well). But, in the end, it's just our best guesses, backed up by our willingness to express confidence by buying into a line of cameras.

Personal anecdote: I saw a wedding photo shoot at the Quay here on the weekend, while I didn't get too close, the backup photographer had a Canon DSLR (as noted by the strap), the primary photographer was using a Sony Mirrorless (obvious from the orange/red ring at the lens mount).

I really don't trust anecdotes. They are too susceptible to confirmation bias and too random. I don't really pay attention to what other photographers use, but if I do notice, it seems most photographers I see are still using either Canon or Nikon.

 

[privatebydesign]

Im surprised what lack of knowledge some people has about DR and the meaning of exposure latitude
and what it means to reproduce an image.

I would like to have the same exposure latitude in my Canon cameras as Nikon have now when we have 50Mp resolution.
sorry to say but few here have a very narrow view of what DR and exposure latitude means in reality

From 400iso up you do. People understand more than you give them credit for, raised shadows are raised shadows, they do not have the colour and tonality of correctly exposed mid tones.

 

[StudentOfLight]

There was a long post here that just *disappeared*, so I can't respond to it.

I deleted it (and my other posts) since it's useless to get sucked into all the nonsense here, bye.

Either that, or you can't admit that the one metric you hold so dear is nowhere as important to the majority of users or purchasers as other features where the Canon system vastly out performs the competition.

Given 20 Lego-bricks you have at least two options:
Option A: Spend your time complaining that you are unable to build a wall 21 Lego-bricks high.
Option B: Or you could spend the rest of your life creating unique configurations and not even come close to exhausting all the possibilities. (20 x 19 x 18 x 17 x 16 x 15...etc)

 

[K]

Apparently, some people here have no idea of internet sales and marketing works.

I think people understand it a lot better than you think.

Preorder sales numbers are always wildly inflated as many people preorder from several retailers in order to increase the odds they get their hands on the camera earlier.

Wow, that's an interesting rationalization that contradicts your bold prediction that this camera would be a failure.

People are so desperate to get their hands on the camera that they place orders with multiple retailers, yet the camera is a failure?

Even if such behavior occurs, it is irrelevant because we are only referencing one retailer's orders. If a buyer ultimately takes delivery from B&H or Adorama, they are still taking delivery.

Pre-sales are high with a new release, not because of multiple orders but because of pent-up demand.

It's too early to know for sure, of course, but robust pre-sales at nearly $4,000 a pop seems to refute your prediction of failure.

...Amazon isn't basing that on all-time sales. If that were the case, then the 5DS in preorder alone has surpassed the total sales numbers of the 5D3. Whomever believes that hasn't got a clue.

Or perhaps, anyone who thinks someone would believe that doesn't have a clue.

Amazon uses rolling sales figures. It an effective way to get an accurate picture of changing opinions or behavior.

They select a set time period and add in the latest numbers at the front end, while rolling off the numbers at the back end. Like all surveys, it's a snapshot in time, but it's a bit more accurate than simply picking a single arbitrary point in time.

BTW, as of this post, it has now gone to #2.

Is it really so painful to just admit that your prediction was wrong?

:


Demand: 10 willing and ready buyers
Supply: 10 retailers accepting pre-orders.

If each buyer preorders from one retailer - the total predorder demand is 10.

If each buyer preoders from ALL retailers, the total preorder demand is now 100.

In the end, only 10 cameras will be bought. However, those cherry picking preorder stats, might be misinformed thinking the demand is greater.

Not everyone will preorder from several sources, but some will. Some retailers will receive less preorders than others from unique buyers who are only attempting to do business with them. Stores that have lenient policies will attract the most preorders. Amazon is one of those.

Either way, the numbers are inflated.

Next,

Yes, Amazon uses a snapshot. Most preorder items out there, even those which fail or are mediocre in sales, show strong preorder numbers. It also isn't beyond Amazon to fudge the numbers to create more hype and demand. Anyone who knows retail, knows that a lot of preorders and backorders are never fulfilled due to buyer backing out.

Using Amazon preorder sales as any kind of real metric is flawed and foolish.


There's no doubt there will be a surge up front. Naturally, it's the newest thing from Canon in several years. It's 50MP monster. Between the curious, the bloggers, vloggers, websites, reviewers, mags and rags - that alone will sell the camera out in the beginning. But that is par for the course and true of anything. Then there are real pros and hard core enthusiasts who value the niche this thing satisfies for them. They will buy.

Doesn't seem appealing to anyone else. Not for the money, or the features.


It's a nearly $4,000 50MP 5D3 with worse ISO.

^ that's the nutshell of it.


For buyers, the 5DS has only one question and one question only - do you need/can you use 50MP? If yes, this is a camera for you. If no, it is a poor value. For most photography, all out resolution isn't the most important. It's always, always, always nice to have. But it isn't the most important. Especially if one is giving up other things in return.

The camera is only for those who plan to create the highest resolution photos with a DSLR, and who view all other capabilities as secondary or lesser than that. And even then, most will probably be from the Canon family already.

I'm thinking of this as neutrally as possible. Again, I'm a Canon user (5D3 and 6D). That is a lot of money for just high resolution. The killer is the weak ISO topping out at 6400. The FPS could be overlooked. No big deal there with so much data per photo. AF is perfectly fine. But the ISO is weak.

Forget all these idiotic dynamic range trolls. I agree that more DR is better. But I also agree that it just isn't that important as it is made out to be. However, good clean high ISO is important.

Sure, some are arguing, this is a STUDIO camera. You don't run even 6400 in a studio let alone more. I say - TRUE. But that again falls into my point that this is too specialized. Regardless of whether or not Canon released an incredibly good high ISO camera in the 5D4 - I think even a specialty camera should be a little more well rounded than that.