Canon 6D True High ISO King?
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Kudos to the 6D, but the review also mentions 7D as having an excellent sensor for low-light work, so I don't know what to say...
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Here we go again... 5D3 vs 6D. I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation). :
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Dylan777 said:
Even though I'm rather critical with the 6d and Canon marketing, they do say that the 5d3 works up to -2lv, the 6d at half this light. I really doubt there is absolutely nothing to it, the question is if it's really a full stop, how slow the cameras are to af at min. light and how often these situations occur.
verysimplejason said:I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation). :
Nothing unusual about that, it's the complete package that counts, and of course Canon (and every other manufacturer) will take great care that more money means better overall performance. If you have special needs you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic.
Last not least, if you don't want to read anything about 5d3 vs. 6d don't look at a "6D True High ISO King" thread
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Marsu42 said:Dylan777 said:
Even though I'm rather critical with the 6d and Canon marketing, they do say that the 5d3 works up to -2lv, the 6d at half this light. I really doubt there is absolutely nothing to it, the question is if it's really a full stop, how slow the cameras are to af at min. light and how often these situations occur.
verysimplejason said:I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation). :
Nothing unusual about that, it's the complete package that counts, and of course Canon (and every other manufacturer) will take great care that more money means better overall performance. If you have special needs you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic.
Last not least, if you don't want to read anything about 5d3 vs. 6d don't look at a "6D True High ISO King" thread
I think you are oversimplifying things "you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic". Is it logical to just take a camera based on your needs? Again, if you think 6D isn't the "best" for you then why choose it? You should have bought 5D3 where you are better served. You said "it's the complete package that counts". Now, that's not being logical. That's a statement that is too subjective. My point is, everybody has a need that is better served by something else as you yourself mentioned. Choosing a system based on your need, now that is what we can call logical. The point is, for those guys who doesn't need the best AF but needs the cleanest high ISO IQ, then 6D is really the King. Of course, it might be a different case for you so 6D might not be the King for you. Isn't that logical? Are we escaping the logic in any way? :
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5d3 vs 6d is a tough choice for me, if I were given either to use regularly for free and could not sell I'm not sure what I would pick.
-5d3 clearly has overall better AF, but on the other hand I can't put in a high precision focusing screen meaning I can't MF fast lenses accurately through viewfinder (or see what I am truly AFing); 6D center point also rated as being able to focus in lower light than 5d3 per Canon specs.
-I like the joystick on 5d3, but programming the pad on 6d to move AF points works also with a bit less comfort.
-I like the image quality of 5d3, but 6d has better high ISO performance.
-The dual card slots and 1/8000 shutter speed on 5d3 are a nice bonus I'd definitely use, but then again 6d has gps/wifi at no extra cost; though I'd rather have the fast shutter and dual cards than gps/wifi, fast shutter might reduce my usage of ND filters in daylight with fast lenses wide open.
I would like to say the 5d3 is a clear cut upgrade from 6D but there are a important few areas where the 6D exceeds the 5d3. Hopefully 5d4 will rectify these issues in all areas so I'd consider upgrading to it, as right now the disadvantages of the 5d3 prevent me from considering an upgrade...
-5d3 clearly has overall better AF, but on the other hand I can't put in a high precision focusing screen meaning I can't MF fast lenses accurately through viewfinder (or see what I am truly AFing); 6D center point also rated as being able to focus in lower light than 5d3 per Canon specs.
-I like the joystick on 5d3, but programming the pad on 6d to move AF points works also with a bit less comfort.
-I like the image quality of 5d3, but 6d has better high ISO performance.
-The dual card slots and 1/8000 shutter speed on 5d3 are a nice bonus I'd definitely use, but then again 6d has gps/wifi at no extra cost; though I'd rather have the fast shutter and dual cards than gps/wifi, fast shutter might reduce my usage of ND filters in daylight with fast lenses wide open.
I would like to say the 5d3 is a clear cut upgrade from 6D but there are a important few areas where the 6D exceeds the 5d3. Hopefully 5d4 will rectify these issues in all areas so I'd consider upgrading to it, as right now the disadvantages of the 5d3 prevent me from considering an upgrade...
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Now, I'm not really interested in yet another 6d vs 5d3 debate, but it's hard not to reply ... but I'll try to let this be my last comment on this specific issue.
Oh my, that's good ol' CR "Just get a 1dx, 70-200L2, 24-70L2 and be done with it" :-> ... I'm rather amazed about these questions, but fyi I can think of 1200 reasons with an € label attached :-o
On the contrary, though I admit this was not very precise. I define "complete package" as Canon marketing and statistics would define it, i.e. what what user groups willing how many $$$ to spend need... and then they do or modify the specs.
Imho there is a rather linear "complete package" scale, Rebel "shoot your family on birthdays" group have different needs than the enthusiasts around here. For example looking at the posts, users who buy a ff also want some sort of sealing and pref. a 100% vf - so Canon uses these pieces of information to assemble packages like "6d good sensor / lacking sealing / cropped vf" and "5d3 has it all". These are just examples from the top of my head, but you get the picture.
For me it wasn't because I'm $$$ limited and bodies loose their price much quicker than lenses. I keep commenting on the 6d's af shortcomings as I'm annoyed Canon crippled it beyond what would have been required to separate if from the 5d3.
But truth is, *if* the shot is in focus (and that's not difficult with landscape and such) it has terrific iq and significantly less banding than the 5d3, and at the end of the day people aren't interested in how many shots were lost but only how good the one shot left is. So if I don't lose the shot of my life because the 6d's af fails I'd rather spend the 6d->5d3 difference on lenses, because that's what you see (through).
... but I'll try to let this be my last comment on this specific issue.verysimplejason said:
Oh my, that's good ol' CR "Just get a 1dx, 70-200L2, 24-70L2 and be done with it" :-> ... I'm rather amazed about these questions, but fyi I can think of 1200 reasons with an € label attached :-o
verysimplejason said:
On the contrary, though I admit this was not very precise. I define "complete package" as Canon marketing and statistics would define it, i.e. what what user groups willing how many $$$ to spend need... and then they do or modify the specs.
Imho there is a rather linear "complete package" scale, Rebel "shoot your family on birthdays" group have different needs than the enthusiasts around here. For example looking at the posts, users who buy a ff also want some sort of sealing and pref. a 100% vf - so Canon uses these pieces of information to assemble packages like "6d good sensor / lacking sealing / cropped vf" and "5d3 has it all". These are just examples from the top of my head, but you get the picture.
Ruined said:
For me it wasn't because I'm $$$ limited and bodies loose their price much quicker than lenses. I keep commenting on the 6d's af shortcomings as I'm annoyed Canon crippled it beyond what would have been required to separate if from the 5d3.
But truth is, *if* the shot is in focus (and that's not difficult with landscape and such) it has terrific iq and significantly less banding than the 5d3, and at the end of the day people aren't interested in how many shots were lost but only how good the one shot left is. So if I don't lose the shot of my life because the 6d's af fails I'd rather spend the 6d->5d3 difference on lenses, because that's what you see (through).
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jocau said:
It works across the whole screen, but once you move away from the broad centre, the lens you are using will dictate how effective it is as many fast prime's resolution drops away towards the edges of the frame when fully open, and as all cameras now have 'open aperture metering' you are viewing through the lens at its least efficient, resolution wise.
I find the major benefit of the 's' screens is seeing the actual dof. I use them but I still use AF too.
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6D is a great landscape and general use camera. Many people don't need a sports/wildlife camera, or would prefer to have a specialist sports/wildlife camera (7D or 1D4) with higher frame rate than the 5D3. The Eg-S screen works fine for demonstrating depth of field. I use manual lenses, some of which have yet to be chipped, so I do like the Eg-S screen over the initial screen.
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I own both and I'll end this argument by saying, if it's a paid job I reach for the 5D3 and bring a 6D for backup/reserve but if it isn't I just take the 6D which I agree to disagree has slightly faster focusing in very low light via center point but nothing to shake a fist over.
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Ruined said:
LOL...really? I can't believe what I'm hearing GPS/WiFi are more important in choosing between 5D3 & 6D, LOL ;D. You made my morning ;D ;D ;D
If I'm a wedding shooter, 5D III is clearly a winner. I have 4 friends(PRO wedding shooters), none of them carry 6D. Combined, they have eight 5DIII & six 1dx.
With all focus points below, why MF? With just 41 combination of dual & cross type, recompose the shot is almost down to zero = less miss shots, even with f1.2 lenses.
1. How do you MF in live wedding when your subjects are moving around?
2. At what high ISO does 6D is better than 5DIII?
3. Assuming 6D center AF focus faster than 5DIII in -3EV condtion, would you delivery 12800ISO photos to your clients?
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Ironically enough I was at a friend's wedding last month and the photographer was using a 5D3. I watched her a bit only to find out she was using the center AF point exclusively...
My initial thought? She could have also shot that wedding with a 6D if she only uses the center AF point.
My initial thought? She could have also shot that wedding with a 6D if she only uses the center AF point.
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NancyP said:
I always reach for the 6D over my crop cameras when shooting wildlife. There's an overall tonality and smoothness to the images at all ISO's that really makes fur, fin, and feather "pop".
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some 5D guys are extremely insecure and condescending, hating the 6D just like some die hard D8xx fans hate the Sony A7R or D610.
but it all depends on what you shoot or what how much weight you like to carry with you regardless or tiny bit of AF feature set difference between the 2 in question here.
but one thing I am sure about is the 6D's center point AF is quite much better than any AF point of the 61pts of the 5D Af sensor or D810 sensor.
I tried many times in lowlight and nothing with the mirror beat the 6D in the area of lowlight AF.
The GH4 and the A7s are better than the 6D in this specific area, but none of Nikon Canon with mirror beats it.
Oh and also for long exposure thermal noise, the 6D is about 34 percent better than the 5D3 , you can see it in all sensor tests including Roger's.
but it all depends on what you shoot or what how much weight you like to carry with you regardless or tiny bit of AF feature set difference between the 2 in question here.
but one thing I am sure about is the 6D's center point AF is quite much better than any AF point of the 61pts of the 5D Af sensor or D810 sensor.
I tried many times in lowlight and nothing with the mirror beat the 6D in the area of lowlight AF.
The GH4 and the A7s are better than the 6D in this specific area, but none of Nikon Canon with mirror beats it.
Oh and also for long exposure thermal noise, the 6D is about 34 percent better than the 5D3 , you can see it in all sensor tests including Roger's.
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Dylan777 said:
Did you read my post? It does not appear so.
And, what does this mean to the total pool of wedding photographers which is multitudes greater than 4? Are you saying your friends are unable to shoot a wedding with a 5D2 or 6D? What did they do before the 5D3 came out? My guess is use the 5D2, which has worse autofocus than the 6D. I would be very concerned about the skill level of a professional unable to shoot a high quality wedding with a 6D.
The 1DX I would use no contest over the 6D as it dominates in all aspects, but I cannot yet justify the cost of two 1DX bodies when 6D is doing the job currently. I could justify two 5D4 bodies, but only if Canon does not gimp them by removing ability to interchange focus screens as they did with the 5D3.
Focus & recompose at f/1.2 will not acquire exact focus due to the thin DOF. While the 5d3 has a ton of focal points, often none of them are exactly where the eye would be in thin DOF portrait shots in either landscape or portrait orientations. Hence there is no way to truly focus properly for thin DOF portraits on the 5D3 aside from MF in Live View, which requires a tripod; you can spray&pray or recompose and hope it comes out okay, but I'd rather get it right the first time. The 6D comes stock with the same screen the 5D3 has stock, and they are both terrible for MFing fast lenses compared to the Ec-S/Eg-S screen which can be used on the 1DX/6D - but not the 5D3.
You don't MF when you are capturing guests moving around. You MF for precise focus when doing shallow DOF portraits with bride/groom which are some of the most important shots of the whole wedding. 5d3's MF capabilities are very weak since there is no way to see true DOF with fast lenses unlike the 1DX and 6D with high precision screen. Even when using autofocus with fast lenses the high precision screen better shows what is in focus and what is not prior to taking the photo than the stock screen. For lots of motion I would center point focus in AI Servo and crop afterwards when needed.
I'd say it starts to becomes noticeable at 6400, which can be necessary at low light venues.
Not usually, though delivering a 12800 ISO photo is better than no photo. However, this is why I use f/1.2-f/1.4 primes... which once again, cannot be MF'd properly through the viewfinder on a 5d3 due to Canon obviously gimping the 5d3 on purpose to differentiate it from 1DX. Canon literally screwed a thin plate over where you would access the focus screen on the 5d3, but more problematicly removed the metering options for high precision screens out of the C.Fn settings - meaning if you change focus screens on 5d3, you void the warranty and your metering will be off.
The bottom line is, I don't want to give up the ability to MF my fast lenses through the viewfinder, and I also think the 6D autofocus is sufficient for most events (sports excluded, where I would rather use a 1DX).
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My personal experience/opinion: The 6D works good in critally light conditions, the 5D3s AF is superior.
Visited an workshop in Munich´s zoo. Compared the shots with the 8 other fotographers (4x6D, 5x7D, 4x5D3. Mostly 100-400mm, 300mm2.8+2x, 1x 400mm, 1x500mm):
5D3 was superior, shooting the fast flying hawks and milans. Sharp pictures: 6D ~50%, 7D~75, 5D3 ~80-90%.
But when we shot swimming sea lions (dark objects), the AF of the 6D could (nearly) reach the 5D3s. And the details of the black and dark brown lion pelts were as good as the 5D3s.
An good lens helps the AF of the 6D @ moving objects more than if you use it on the 7D. Using the outer AF points in moving objects, is a clear point of the 5D3 or 7D.
Visited an workshop in Munich´s zoo. Compared the shots with the 8 other fotographers (4x6D, 5x7D, 4x5D3. Mostly 100-400mm, 300mm2.8+2x, 1x 400mm, 1x500mm):
5D3 was superior, shooting the fast flying hawks and milans. Sharp pictures: 6D ~50%, 7D~75, 5D3 ~80-90%.
But when we shot swimming sea lions (dark objects), the AF of the 6D could (nearly) reach the 5D3s. And the details of the black and dark brown lion pelts were as good as the 5D3s.
An good lens helps the AF of the 6D @ moving objects more than if you use it on the 7D. Using the outer AF points in moving objects, is a clear point of the 5D3 or 7D.
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