Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over

[crasher8]

amazing this thread is still alive

 

[Canon-F1]

Actually, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Consumers have their choice of five very similar lenses available in a range of prices. Canon is not only competing with other lens makers for our dollars, they are competing with themselves. We get to choose based on needs and affordability. That
is a win for consumers.

if only the canon variations would not be overpriced compared to the competition.
and that´s the whole point of this thread.

 

[Orangutan]

overpriced

Please define this term precisely. In all seriousness, I don't know what you mean here. To me this word could have any of these definitions:

• higher price than I'm willing to pay for it
• higher price than my (hypothetical) customer is willing to pay for it
• artificially high price due to collusion with other companies; i.e., not subject to normal supply/demand market pressures

Is it not one of these?

 

[x-vision]

overpriced = priced higher than perceived value

Value is certainly subjective.
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.

 

[Orangutan]

overpriced = priced higher than perceived value

Value is certainly subjective.
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.

What if that $1000 iPhone sold at, say, a 25% HIGHER rate than the previous model; would it still be fair to say that it was overpriced, given that so many people were willing to pay the price for it?

Of course, it's obvious where my argument is going: "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." At least this is true in the absence of market manipulation. If enough people are willing to buy enough of these overpriced items so that it's profitable for the seller then the item is, de facto, not overpriced.

The explanation for the 5D3 price history is likely very simple: Canon thought people would pay a high price on release; many did. Then demand dropped off, so the price dropped accordingly. Will the higher price sour the perception of Canon to the point where Canon users migrate? Who's to say? If it does then Canon will change their market tactics. Canon is not my friend or spouse, I don't need them to like, love or respect me, nor I them. They're a business counterparty: they want me to give them lots of my money, and I want them to give me lots of value.

 

[Zlatko]

overpriced

Please define this term precisely. In all seriousness, I don't know what you mean here. To me this word could have any of these definitions:

• higher price than I'm willing to pay for it
• higher price than my (hypothetical) customer is willing to pay for it
• artificially high price due to collusion with other companies; i.e., not subject to normal supply/demand market pressures

Is it not one of these?

Apparently it means "higher priced than the very cheapest third party competitor that offers lenses for the same mount". Nevermind any cost-cutting by the competitor, such as the three tiny bits of glue that hold the front element of a third-party's 24-70 zoom. And nevermind any incompatibilities caused by the third party reverse-engineering things. And nevermind their wrong-direction zooms. And nevermind any unique characteristics of the Canon offerings, such as the outstanding resolution of the 24-70/2.8 II, the built-in image stabilization of the 35/2 IS, the radio-controlled flash of the 600EX-RT, the variable raw file size and amazing quiet shutter mode of the 5DIII, the amazing 17mm tilt-shift or the 8-15mm fisheye lenses, etc. It follows from this logic that Canon should be competing on price with everyone else out there, and letting innovation and quality take a backseat to price competition. If a third-party ever makes a cheapo Canon-mount DSLR, then Canon should downgrade the 1DX and 5DIII to match it, to avoid being "overpriced". It also means discounting every product from the first day on the market, to avoid any introductory pricing, despite countless other businesses doing the same thing. ;D

 

[Radiating]

If you actually talk to Canon USA's internal folks (which I do because I take photography way too seriously as a hobby) you'll notice that they speak a lot more about marketing and economics. Whenever they talk about a product they are always talking from a market perspective. "Q:Why don't you release a updated 1Dx with f/8 AF points, A: because people will buy our cameras regardless, we aren't going to implement a feature if it's not going to be a money maker".

Did you miss the fact that Canon added f/8 AF to the 1D X via a firmware update, just 4 months after the camera hit the streets? How much money did Canon make from that firmware update? So...either you made up that conversation, or you talked to some junior lackey with no clue about Canon's business operations. "Hello, Canon 800-number operator, please put me through to the guy who washes the dishes in the commissary, I have important economic questions..."

Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking f/8 AF.

 

[wayno]

Sensible edit. The twists and turns of camera forums. Any forums!?

 

[FatDaddyJones]

Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking f/8 AF.

Thanks for that! Can't wait for the 5D Mark III firmware update.

 

[nightbreath]

However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.

Current iPhone is priced at $1000 in the country where I live, lots of people buy it anyway

Apparently it means "higher priced than the very cheapest third party competitor that offers lenses for the same mount". Nevermind any cost-cutting by the competitor, such as the three tiny bits of glue that hold the front element of a third-party's 24-70 zoom. And nevermind any incompatibilities caused by the third party reverse-engineering things. And nevermind their wrong-direction zooms. And nevermind any unique characteristics of the Canon offerings, such as the outstanding resolution of the 24-70/2.8 II, the built-in image stabilization of the 35/2 IS, the radio-controlled flash of the 600EX-RT, the variable raw file size and amazing quiet shutter mode of the 5DIII, the amazing 17mm tilt-shift or the 8-15mm fisheye lenses, etc. It follows from this logic that Canon should be competing on price with everyone else out there, and letting innovation and quality take a backseat to price competition. If a third-party ever makes a cheapo Canon-mount DSLR, then Canon should downgrade the 1DX and 5DIII to match it, to avoid being "overpriced". It also means discounting every product from the first day on the market, to avoid any introductory pricing, despite countless other businesses doing the same thing. ;D

Strong post! +1 on that!

 

[neuroanatomist]

Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking f/8 AF.

Just you, all by your lonesome? Art Morris solved that one, too...attach a Kenko 1.4x TC to an 800mm f/5.6L IS. I'm sure that didn't put any pressure on Canon, though, because no one's really heard of him, and no one at Canon would pay attention to him, despite him being a Canon Explorer of Light and all. Oh, and people have been taping pins on the 1.4x TC for years.

Can you post that technical article? I'd love to read it.

 

[FatDaddyJones]

amazing this thread is still alive

+1

 

[Albi86]

I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

 

[sanj]

I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

There is merit to your point. At least to me.

I have a different viewpoint to the 'overpriced' term: If an item released by a company comes down in price shortly (within 5-6 months) after it is announced, that means that the company was trying to get the maximum out of the customer at start. If they can sell it soon after release for less than what they introduced it at, they over priced it at introduction. The point is that no company will reduce the price to the extent they they do not make profit. And the price they reduce it to after they realize that the sales have dropped (of course they are still making profit), could (to me: should) have been the starting price. My belief.

Apple does NOT reduce prices of its computers. It stays the same over it's life cycle. I like that!

I also do not understand how retailers can drop prices unless they are getting some incentive from Canon. Or they had a margin of over $500 on 5d3 at introduction?

Canon helps me take photos and I appreciate that. I want to pay and help them make profit when I buy their products. I wish they would not penalize the early buyers...

 

[elflord]

I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

The supply of the 24-70 f/4 is relatively limited. The 24-105L is undercut by a large secondary market (it's a kit lens for a popular camera with a long life cycle so it's easy to buy used).

Car manufacturers do in fact do this all the time, and in some cases the limited quantity is completely contrived for example, they will release "special edition" models (which have a special paint color and some other mindor upgrades) in limited quantity and charge a large sum for it. One of my friends priced a Toyota Prius when they were at the height of their popularity and the dealer quote included a "supply and demand fee" for about $6000-.

There is also plenty of this from other manufacturers.

So it's hardly unprecedented. However, as a buyer of these products it's good to be aware of this and wait for the "early adopter premium" to expire. If I'm asked for buying advice, I always point out that new products have a premium attached to them. Often on this board the advice is "buy Canon and buy the most expensive thing Canon makes", but this isn't always good advice.

 

[Orangutan]

I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

Sophisms? I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny "the very existence" of the term. "Overpriced" simply doesn't have any meaning divorced from its context. For example:

• I won't buy a 5D3 at $3500, so it's overpriced for me
• I won't buy a D800 at $2000, so it's also overpriced for me
• for a company like Canon, the term overpriced means they're not selling enough of them to meet their financial goals.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

I won't buy it at that price so it's overpriced for me. Yet people do pay ridiculous amounts of money for restored old cars, even though their intrinsic quality is much lower than would be justified by the cost.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

That means it's overpriced for you. Some people think its qualities do justify the higher cost, therefore it is not overpriced for them.

And what about a manual-focus Zeiss 100mm lens that costs $1800, is that overpriced by your definition? Why or why not? I can tell you that I won't buy it at that price, so it's overpriced for me. There are plenty of wealthy people paying what I consider to be ridiculous amounts of money for Leica manual focus cameras; are those cameras overpriced? I can tell you that they're overpriced for me.

This is simple economics:

• "Overpriced" is a relative term, and cannot reasonably be used without the context. You can't reasonably say "X is overpriced," you must say "X is overpriced for..."
• If you will not buy a product at its current price, then it's overpriced for you
• If someone else will buy a product at its current price, then it's not overpriced for them
• If Canon fails to sell enough of these products at their current price, then it's overpriced for them

 

[zim]

I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

Sophisms? I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny "the very existence" of the term. "Overpriced" simply doesn't have any meaning divorced from its context. For example:

• I won't buy a 5D3 at $3500, so it's overpriced for me
• I won't buy a D800 at $2000, so it's also overpriced for me
• for a company like Canon, the term overpriced means they're not selling enough of them to meet their financial goals.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

I won't buy it at that price so it's overpriced for me. Yet people do pay ridiculous amounts of money for restored old cars, even though their intrinsic quality is much lower than would be justified by the cost.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

That means it's overpriced for you. Some people think its qualities do justify the higher cost, therefore it is not overpriced for them.

And what about a manual-focus Zeiss 100mm lens that costs $1800, is that overpriced by your definition? Why or why not? I can tell you that I won't buy it at that price, so it's overpriced for me. There are plenty of wealthy people paying what I consider to be ridiculous amounts of money for Leica manual focus cameras; are those cameras overpriced? I can tell you that they're overpriced for me.

This is simple economics:

• "Overpriced" is a relative term, and cannot reasonably be used without the context. You can't reasonably say "X is overpriced," you must say "X is overpriced for..."
• If you will not buy a product at its current price, then it's overpriced for you
• If someone else will buy a product at its current price, then it's not overpriced for them
• If Canon fails to sell enough of these products at their current price, then it's overpriced for them

+100000000000000000
This thread would have stopped right there

(actually I don't want it to stop it's been really funny, hick )

 

[brett b]

When you introduce a new product to any market you cannot be certain what the correct price is for that market.

Sales 101 - It is much easier to reduce the price if the market dictates that the launch price is too high than to increase the price if the market dictates it is too low.

 

[Stichus III]

When you introduce a new product to any market you cannot be certain what the correct price is for that market.

Sales 101 - It is much easier to reduce the price if the market dictates that the launch price is too high than to increase the price if the market dictates it is too low.

Great point.

 

[WPJ]

Ya really I'm a little pissy, I got a 7D last Christmas for 1250cnd and this year it was 1299cnd.....how dare they charge 49$ more this year.......absurd.....