Canon EOS-1D X Mark II To Be 22mp [CR3]

[ahsanford]

I understand that they need to differentiate the product lines. But they still can do it by using the same sensor in their 3 upcoming FF cameras. I was wondering if this strategy will keep the production cost down, especially because the new sensor will be more costly to produce than the older ones.

Yes. They could do something like this with an identical sensor:

1DX II = 22 MP + new AF system + 12/14 fps + 4K + integral grip + exclusive 1-series goodies

5D4 = 22MP + same new AF system + 8 fps

6D2 = 22 MP + better than 6D1 AF system + 5 fps + a lovely camera strap


But I think each camp would be pretty butt hurt for doing that:

1DX II users want a hell of a lot more exclusive stuff than a grip + 4K + high burst for $3k more.

The 5D4 camp is gunning for more pixels than the high fps monster sitting up top, and many want 4K

The 6D2 camp wants a proper AF system


Getting the tiers / value propositions right is dicey and delicate. I'm sure Canon marketing has been torturing that for some time. I think it will be different sensors between the 1DX II and the others, but I can't peg 4K. I still think Canon may put 4k on the 5D4 secretly and only unlock it via firmware if sales tank without it.

- A

 

[deleteme]

I am thinking of possibly trading in my 1DX for the II. Is the increase of 4MP along with ISO warrant a possible trade?

While I am certain the new camera will be superb, I hardly think that it would be worth the trade.

However that is me. I said the 5DmkIII was not worth the upgrade. Then I used one. Now I have three. :

 

[cosmopotter]

That sounds fine to me. There are lots of photographers hoping for the sensor to be in the 22-24 Mp range. Not only is this in alignment with high performance expectations, but also high iso expectations. This is shaping up as a year of great releases.

+1

Now I hope that Canon is staying in similar region a with the 5D4 sensor.

Well, judging by the MP war I would expect the Mk IV to have more than the D750 (24.3MP). The 5Ds was made to outdo the D810, the 1Dx II will be made to outdo the D5, so it only makes sense.

and why not provide the same sensor in the 5D4? is it so undoable? ...back in the day film was the sensor...there was enough variation in tech and built of the cameras, though. No one would have come to the conclusion to provide you or to force you to buy a lesser quality film...that's something I still cannot grasp :-\

 

[cosmopotter]

I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it will be 24-28MP to outperform the D750. The 6D Mk II could get the current 5D Mk III's 22MP sensor. That's pretty much what they did with the original 6D, which was quite similar to the 5D Mk II.

 

[Diltiazem]

I understand that they need to differentiate the product lines. But they still can do it by using the same sensor in their 3 upcoming FF cameras. I was wondering if this strategy will keep the production cost down, especially because the new sensor will be more costly to produce than the older ones.

Yes. They could do something like this with an identical sensor:

1DX II = 22 MP + new AF system + 12/14 fps + 4K + integral grip + exclusive 1-series goodies

5D4 = 22MP + same new AF system + 8 fps

6D2 = 22 MP + better than 6D1 AF system + 5 fps + a lovely camera strap


But I think each camp would be pretty butt hurt for doing that:

1DX II users want a hell of a lot more exclusive stuff than a grip + 4K + high burst for $3k more.

The 5D4 camp is gunning for more pixels than the high fps monster sitting up top, and many want 4K

The 6D2 camp wants a proper AF system


Getting the tiers / value propositions right is dicey and delicate. I'm sure Canon marketing has been torturing that for some time. I think it will be different sensors between the 1DX II and the others, but I can't peg 4K. I still think Canon may put 4k on the 5D4 secretly and only unlock it via firmware if sales tank without it.

- A

I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.

 

[Loswr]

...it's exactly just this that makes me think back on the film days...there was one and the same sensor for everyone...

Quite the opposite – back in the film days, you could have one camera and many sensor options...lots of difference between Velvia 50 and Tmax P3200.

 

[cosmopotter]

If the 1DX2 really appears at 22MP, then 24MP makes sense for the 5D4, non DPAF. Since Canon has established the 6 series as the "entry level" I would highly doubt a leap over the 5 series in pixel count. Staying 20-22 would be just perfect but throw in the 5D3 AF system (or a slightly watered down version) since the 5D4 will clearly have a new system.

Don't forget the rumor that with the 5D4 comes a revised 5DS for obvious reasons (production costs). I think if people want higher resolution than 24-26MP, the logical step is to 50. Not 28. Seems like that would be crowding the field too much.

Regarding the 5D IV, I'd be perfectly happy with the same 22 MP sensor as the 1Dx (who in their right mind wouldn't be?) But, I suspect for product differentiation purposes, it will be slightly denser, but I hope not over 24-26 MP.

It would really make more sense for Canon to switch the sensor relationship between the 6D and 5D, putting a 28 MP sensor in the 6D and holding the 5D to 24. The 6D is really better suited for a higher megapixel sensor and the 5D for higher ISO performance. (The 6D is well suited for nature and landscape, while the 5D is more likely to be used for event, wedding and action).

I do wonder how Canon and Nikon can continue to differentiate between their flagship DSLR and their next-in-line body. It seems like the differences are getting less and less and consumers are demanding more and more from each new iteration.

It wouldn't be unlike Canon to not engage in the NUMBER of focus points battle, but to have less with more + types and DPAF. They don't seen interested in that particular pissing match with Nikon.

 

[ahsanford]

I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

 

[PureClassA]

I think 4K is more of an after thought for the DX2 to satisfy market appearances. While I DO believe video/cinema guys will buy a 5 body for 4K, I DONT believe they are doing the same in a 1 body. If the 1DX2 didn't include 4k, I don't think Canon would see any difference in sales. If the 5D4 were to exclude 4K however, I think it would be far more detrimental to sales compared to having it. There's a proven market appetite at that level for quality video capable DSLRs and MILCs.

I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

 

[mclaren777]

I am the first one - and I also stated that already in this forum - that would really welcome the same sensor in 1DX2, 5D4 and 6D2.

That would be fantastic!

 

[applecider]

22 MP sounds great and would be enough for me to dip into 401k to buy. What we don't know is how the high iso performance will be, if we can get 22 MP and a true 1-1.5 stops of better high iso performance then I'm all in. I don't care about the higher frame rate, tho it would be nice to maintain the current 12-14 fps.

We also don't know what the card format will be. And for those calling for a 50MP D body, think about the throughput that say 6-9 fps would require at those MP counts. To me it does not seem trivial to build the 50MP D body camera and make it worthwhile over the 5DSR.

On the other hand and also rumored today is the SL1 news. I love my little SL1, it's light responsive and small enough to carry hiking. Give it a better autofocus system and 24 MP with a tad better iso performance and I'll have to get that too, of course at the price for refurbs, it was also a great christmas present for my kids.

 

[applecider]

Oh yeah and I really want to see what the 4x10^6 iso images turn out. Got to be better than the Nikon

 

[Diltiazem]

I think both 1DX and 6D camp will be happy with 22MP, but 5DIII camp probably will want more than 22. That probably will be the reason my assumption won't materialize. Yeah, it's a difficult one for Canon.

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

My feeling is that 4K is more important for 5D IV than it is for 1DX. Look at Nikon. They have a better implementation of 4K in D500 than D5. The idea probably is that 1DX/D5 crowd are more interested in performance, still IQ, ruggedness etc than 4K. On the other hand 5D series being the most popular camera for event photography will have more demand for 4K. And I don't think addition of 4k to 5DIV will have any significant impact on 1DXII sales. I could be very wrong in my assumptions though.

 

[pedro]

...it's exactly just this that makes me think back on the film days...there was one and the same sensor for everyone...

Quite the opposite – back in the film days, you could have one camera and many sensor options...lots of difference between Velvia 50 and Tmax P3200.

I see your point! I also tried Tri X, Ilford, Kodachrome back in the day- although I prefered Fuji over Kodak for its more blueish tint...And man, leaving for a 15 day vacation in France from Switzerland where I live, carrying 12 packages for 36 frames of slide film each, that was something! 8)

 

[Don Haines]

I see your point! I also tried Tri X, Ilford, Kodachrome back in the day- although I prefered Fuji over Kodak for its more blueish tint...And man, leaving for a 15 day vacation in France from Switzerland where I live, carrying 12 packages for 36 frames of slide film each, that was something! 8)

yes..... I remember those days before a memory card could hold thousands of pictures.....

 

[ewg963]

Honestly, with a 6D2, I think a LOT of folks would be very happy if they just KEEP the same sensor and significantly upgrade the AF capability to what the 5D3 is now. I think the 6D sensor currently is a real gem for an "entry level" FF DSLR. Get 1-2 more FPS out of it. Basically, make it what a 5D3 is now (minus the bigger, tougher body) but with the 6D sensor and bingo. They will have a real winner there for $1499.

I think Canon will definately provide two different sensors for the 1DX II and the 5D IV but I dont think Canon will go over 30MP for the 5D IV. Its possible they will also have a different sensor for the 6D MKII just as they have currently.

If so, then I could imagine to make my buying decision AFTER the 6DII is released. Be that early 2016 I don't mind. As in the case of the 5DIII/6D situation I then hope that the MP count differs by two Mega less pixels from the 5DIV...! 8) Although I hope they keep it at 24 MP with the 5DIV and use a higher MP count in the 6DII as it was mentioned earlier in this forum.

IF they upped the sensor on the 6D you would get nary a complaint from me however it's a good entry level FF.

 

[mkabi]

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
SO many options out there... no one is literally left. Only the loyalists that invested in so many glass...
Go on to Magic Lantern's site and see what is new... and you will understand.
Nobody is working on the 7D Mark II, I was so excited when they (Magic Lantern) found some code that accessed 4K memory... but I got excited too early... Because all the developers moved on... they literally left. Sony is really tempting right now.

As for me... it really depends on what kind of 4K vs. having 4K on the 5D4 for me.
I'd rather have Cinema 4K (wider resolution) as opposed to the UHD that the rest of them are offering.
That, plus 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI out and high frame rates at 1080p without cropping. And, a whole suite of video capabilities like focus peaking, zebras, etc.

Literally, thats what you have to do keep me with Canon right now... else... I'm going to maintain my future plan of investing in Sony stuff... I mean... yeah.... yeah... yeah... Sony menu is crap... blah... blah... blah...
Sony service is crap.... Stuff I'll have to deal with if my clients are asking for 4K.

 

[scyrene]

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
SO many options out there... no one is literally left. Only the loyalists that invested in so many glass...
Go on to Magic Lantern's site and see what is new... and you will understand.
Nobody is working on the 7D Mark II, I was so excited when they (Magic Lantern) found some code that accessed 4K memory... but I got excited too early... Because all the developers moved on... they literally left. Sony is really tempting right now.

As for me... it really depends on what kind of 4K vs. having 4K on the 5D4 for me.
I'd rather have Cinema 4K (wider resolution) as opposed to the UHD that the rest of them are offering.
That, plus 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI out and high frame rates at 1080p without cropping. And, a whole suite of video capabilities like focus peaking, zebras, etc.

Literally, thats what you have to do keep me with Canon right now... else... I'm going to maintain my future plan of investing in Sony stuff... I mean... yeah.... yeah... yeah... Sony menu is crap... blah... blah... blah...
Sony service is crap.... Stuff I'll have to deal with if my clients are asking for 4K.

YAWN

 

[Diltiazem]

Throw 4K on to that list and you can see why the 5D4 is the most-obsessed-over spec list camera out there. There are equal numbers of folks saying "I don't 4K on my 5D4" as there are "I'm leaving if 4K isn't on it".

Alongside the MP count, the 4K call is really big one for Canon. I think 12-18 months ago they were set on leaving 4K as an upmarket feature in the 1-series and Cinema lines, but now 4K offerings are coming out of the woodwork -- Panasonic and Samsung's mirrorless has it, Sony's A7 line has it, and now -- critically, it's sitting in a top end APS-C rig for Nikon.

Videographers (of which I am not) can completely and correctly dismantle the quality / fine print of those who are selling 4K elsewhere, but the bottom line is that it's mere inclusion on a spec sheet at release helps move units.

So, I believe 'To 4K or not 4K' on the 5D4 is toughest call of the last few years for Canon. Protect the 1-series money or consider 4K an expectation at the 5D level and put it onboard? We shall see.

- A

To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
SO many options out there... no one is literally left. Only the loyalists that invested in so many glass...

Well, the loyalist base seems to be very large and stable. 'So many other options' either have no impact on the market or going out of market (NX1).

Sky has fallen on only few Canon photographers, it seems.

 

[Loswr]

To be honest, its already too late for Canon...
SO many options out there... no one is literally left.

Yep, no one left except the majority of ILC buyers in the world. Somehow, Canon will survive without you.