Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

Even if you could, do you really think you should? Is it really necessary? Isn't the culture already crude enough?

I like the fact it isn't allowed here.

Years ago a neighbor came over to the guy's house across the street as the guy was working on his car. The neighbor was cussing a blue streak. My friend, working on the car, very calmly sent his daughter and my daughter over to my house (They were 6). As soon as they were inside he beat the living daylights out of the neighbor and told him to never speak that way in front of women and children again. The neighbor apologised and we never heard him do it again.

These days too many men haven't any idea how to behave like gentlemen in from of women and children. Now the women are getting just as bad. Sad.

I really dont condone swearing in front of minors, but equally beating the heck out of someone shows the same level of intelligence. Sorry, such action cannot be justified.

Banning swearing and having the report button is sensible. Posters can get very passionate and get lost in the "red haze" of their point, and it can get bad enough without the rest.

 

[Ozarker]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

Even if you could, do you really think you should? Is it really necessary? Isn't the culture already crude enough?

I like the fact it isn't allowed here.

Years ago a neighbor came over to the guy's house across the street as the guy was working on his car. The neighbor was cussing a blue streak. My friend, working on the car, very calmly sent his daughter and my daughter over to my house (They were 6). As soon as they were inside he beat the living daylights out of the neighbor and told him to never speak that way in front of women and children again. The neighbor apologised and we never heard him do it again.

These days too many men haven't any idea how to behave like gentlemen in from of women and children. Now the women are getting just as bad. Sad.

I really dont condone swearing in front of minors, but equally beating the heck out of someone shows the same level of intelligence. Sorry, such action cannot be justified.

Banning swearing and having the report button is sensible. Posters can get very passionate and get lost in the "red haze" of their point, and it can get bad enough without the rest.

You are right. It isn't justified. Never said that though. One ex-con beating the other is normal in their world. Knowing them both like I did... the one getting beaten deserved it for a host of reasons. Justice in its rawest form.

 

[Rupp1]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

As a 5DS owner since October I would be Pi**ed off if a. they replaced the 5DS / 5DSr that quickly and b. if they dropped the 5DS not everyone wants to risk Moire. The cameras are £ 2999 / £ 3100 customers deserve some lifespan.

They are not going to cancel your camera!

You know what, I think I'd be pissed too if the 5DS/DS-R got replaced next year. It would mean that the current models were developed while their successors were almost at the production stage. Making money is great, but alienating your best customers is never a great idea. If it happens, I'd like to see an exchange offer for $500 or less. Yeah, yeah, I know, keep dreaming.

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Canon has likely seen how successful Apple has been getting consumers to spend way too much on a new phone only to have it become "obsolete" a year later when the new model comes out. Their customers are not "p1ssd" because what they bought was the best when they bought it. A good number of them also upgrade religiously. Similarly, if Canon does indeed replace the 5Ds(R) with a newer better model soon, some who did not buy the original may buy the new one and a few of those that did buy the original will upgrade. Canon would be irresponsible as a company if they did not continue to entice folks to part with their money. This is how business works.

Apple iPhones are a lot cheaper than a 5DS/R and Apple normally sells versions of its previous years iPhone. As others state given R&D cycles Canon would have known before launch if it intends replacing the 5DS/R when the 5D IV comes to market thats very cynical and not what you expect at the high end. I think it unlikely they will replace them in 2016 but more likely in 2017 if they share the parts bin with the 5D IV. I think were see a form factor in the 5D IV not too disimilar to the MKIII the real benefits will come from the sensor & electronics not mechanics & ergonomics.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

At first I was sympathetic to those saying they would be upset if Canon were to replace the 5D-S next year, then I began to think about it.

By all accounts the 5D-S series are pretty spectacular cameras. I don't recall any owner complaining about these cameras on this forum. In fact, most of the comments have been laudatory -- with people surprised at how good they perform not just at lower ISOs, but at upper levels as well.

So, why get upset about having a great camera?

Besides, it is unlikely we will see any incredible breakthrough in sensor performance. The supposedly miraculous Sony sensors really aren't noticeably better in most real world shooting situations. No one is producing miracle photographs with Sony sensors. It's hard to imagine Canon coming up with a new sensor technology that suddenly makes everything that came before it obsolete. If that happens, we will all be dumping our cameras. But it isn't going to happen. Instead, any advancement is likely to be incremental and most noticeable at the extremes.

Even if a 5Ds II came out today, any smart buyer will wait at least a year to let the prices settle down. So, if you own a 5Ds now, you should be expecting to hang onto it for at least a year after introduction of any successor. My personal timetable is to try to wait until the new model shows up in the Canon refurbished store.

If you bought it for business reasons and have been using it to make money, you'd be paying for lost opportunities if you didn't have it. If you bought it for personal reasons, you would be missing the fun of having and using it for at least a year and most likely closer to two years -- which is priceless.

So really, looking at it rationally and realistically, I don't think there is any reason to be upset.

 

[brad-man]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

"...rationally and realistically...", you must be new around here...

 

[Ozarker]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Since the 5DS and 5DSr cameras will be utterly worthless this spring... PM me for my address. I promise to give them a fantastic climate controlled retirement home completely protected from man made global warming, rising sea levels, and melting ice caps. I'll do it free of charge too. Don't let those old pieces of junk weigh you down. :

 

[scottkinfw]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

This may be, but it seems like 12 mp will be a hard sell as we approach 2016!

Who wants an 18MP Canon EOS 5D Mark IV or mirrorless FF ?? :-(

Same people that want a 12mp high ISO sensor in an A7S

 

[scottkinfw]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Maybe for the early adopters a firmware update or a relatively inexpensive factory upgrade can bring the camera up to parity?

A lot, I mean A LOT of people are not going to be happy with a 5Ds upgrade after they spent the better part of $4K for the existing ones.

 

[scottkinfw]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Sure you can. F-stop. There, I said it.

sek

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

.....

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

Even if you could, do you really think you should? Is it really necessary? Isn't the culture already crude enough?

I like the fact it isn't allowed here.

Years ago a neighbor came over to the guy's house across the street as the guy was working on his car. The neighbor was cussing a blue streak. My friend, working on the car, very calmly sent his daughter and my daughter over to my house (They were 6). As soon as they were inside he beat the living daylights out of the neighbor and told him to never speak that way in front of women and children again. The neighbor apologised and we never heard him do it again.

These days too many men haven't any idea how to behave like gentlemen in from of women and children. Now the women are getting just as bad. Sad.

I really dont condone swearing in front of minors, but equally beating the heck out of someone shows the same level of intelligence. Sorry, such action cannot be justified.

Banning swearing and having the report button is sensible. Posters can get very passionate and get lost in the "red haze" of their point, and it can get bad enough without the rest.

You are right. It isn't justified. Never said that though. One ex-con beating the other is normal in their world. Knowing them both like I did... the one getting beaten deserved it for a host of reasons. Justice in its rawest form.

No you didnt and nor did I intend to accuse you - but you quoted it, and in an incomplete form (which you have elaborated on now). In it's elaborated form it loses the same effect.

But I do still agree with you - swearing on forums, even when made in an abstract way, is wrong. I know I swear too much and don't realise, but that's no excuse...

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

@jeffa4444 & Dilbert

Sorry, disagree to a point.

Canon Product cycles are around 3 years for their Prosumer & Pro ranges. Have been for ages. In fact CR has stated that those cycles will probably get longer (less revenue, less investment, less people, longer cycles)

Any of the entry level kit - sure, that does get updated every 12-18 months, although I suspect a "high street" consumer, who does little internet research, would not realise that...

Anyone buying a 5Ds would have an expectation that Canon would not replace their model within a year. Canon might produce a 1xx version, sure. A 6xx version ? Highly unlikely based on target market. Canon's research has indicated that the 5xx form is the most profitable.

I cannot see them replacing it within a year/18 months without offering something to existing users.

Does Canon start the next Dev cycle before the current one is launched - for existing lines, sure. For the first model in a new line - perhaps 6-12 months later, as you want to see how well you assessed the target market.

In parallel I suspect they have R&D teams, one looking at all things AF and working on 3-4 versions of it, ditto sensors, Digic, video, lenses. Each Product Line Manager would then get to draw on whichever iteration is available as an individual model comes up for alpha testing and draws the line at features. It's clearly more involved then I've highlighted, but at 30,000 ft...

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

What's the shortest life span for a pro-level Canon DSLR?

Just over 15 months for the 1D MkII.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

@jeffa4444 & Dilbert

Sorry, disagree to a point.

Canon Product cycles are around 3 years for their Prosumer & Pro ranges. Have been for ages. In fact CR has stated that those cycles will probably get longer (less revenue, less investment, less people, longer cycles)

Any of the entry level kit - sure, that does get updated every 12-18 months, although I suspect a "high street" consumer, who does little internet research, would not realise that...

Anyone buying a 5Ds would have an expectation that Canon would not replace their model within a year. Canon might produce a 1xx version, sure. A 6xx version ? Highly unlikely based on target market. Canon's research has indicated that the 5xx form is the most profitable.

I cannot see them replacing it within a year/18 months without offering something to existing users.

Does Canon start the next Dev cycle before the current one is launched - for existing lines, sure. For the first model in a new line - perhaps 6-12 months later, as you want to see how well you assessed the target market.

In parallel I suspect they have R&D teams, one looking at all things AF and working on 3-4 versions of it, ditto sensors, Digic, video, lenses. Each Product Line Manager would then get to draw on whichever iteration is available as an individual model comes up for alpha testing and draws the line at features. It's clearly more involved then I've highlighted, but at 30,000 ft...

This all assumes that the new camera is part of a new R&D cycle, and not leftover from the old. Suppose they were ready to go with a world-beating 5DS, except for the next-gen sensor, which had a few problems to resolve. If they felt they couldn't wait for the sensor to be ready, they may have gone ahead with 7D2 sensor tech instead. I wouldn't mind having a 5DS, but I'm happy with my 70D for now, and will wait to see what comes next.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

One very simple explanation. We know the 5D IV will use the autofocus point selector lever from the 7D II. That alone would require a body change. To keep 5D production to a single body design, the 5D S needs to have that same feature. Thus a relatively minor feature /body change for the 5D IV would have a ripple effect.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

What's the shortest life span for a pro-level Canon DSLR?

Just over 15 months for the 1D MkII.

Damnit, you spoiled my fun!

But to continue this, the 1Ds (a $7999 camera), 1DII ($4499) and 1DIIN ($3999) all had life spans well under 3 years (some less than 2) and all cost more than the 5DS.

Sorry about spoiling your fun

As an aside to your three cameras, the 1Ds came out at a time when there was a frightening pace in tech advances, just look at it's predecessors, so even though it was a comparatively short lifespan it isn't surprising given the advances and Canon's ability to totally dominate the high end DSLR. And the 1D MkII and 1D MkIIN really were basically the same camera with just a relatively simple menu and screen refresh, not sure you could really class them as different models.

However, if Canon were to put the 5DS/R sensor into the 5D MkIV shell then you would be in a very similar situation as that 1D MkII/MkIIN, the current 5DS/R owners wouldn't feel so bad because it is the same sensor, which is 100% what that camera is about, and Canon would have their economies of scale in manufacturing. If they did the obvious and dropped the 5DS and only put the AA corrected 5DSR sensor in a 5D MkIV shell then those 5DS owners would have a unique camera that would go up in value, everybody would be happy.

I believe Canon were as surprised at the purchase rates of 5DS to 5DSR's as Nikon were with their D800 and D800e variants who now only offer the AA less D810, I think Canon will do the same and the sooner they could do that the sooner they reduce the different production models.

But what do we know? We are just pontificating basic high school economics, Canon might have more than enough shelved parts for 5D MkIII/5DSR/5DS production to continue indefinitely and supply expected repairs etc.

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Canon Product cycles are around 3 years for their Prosumer & Pro ranges. Have been for ages. In fact CR has stated that those cycles will probably get longer (less revenue, less investment, less people, longer cycles)

What do you call "ages"? Would you like to nominate a "start date" for that?

What's the shortest life span for a pro-level Canon DSLR?

Any of the entry level kit - sure, that does get updated every 12-18 months, although I suspect a "high street" consumer, who does little internet research, would not realise that...

So according to your statement here an entry level camera such as the EOS 1100D would have been replaced after 12-18 months, right?

Anyone buying a 5Ds would have an expectation that Canon would not replace their model within a year. Canon might produce a 1xx version, sure. A 6xx version ? Highly unlikely based on target market. Canon's research has indicated that the 5xx form is the most profitable.

I cannot see them replacing it within a year/18 months without offering something to existing users.

Canon didn't do so in the past and I doubt they will in the future. Canon has no such obligation.

In parallel I suspect they have R&D teams, one looking at all things AF and working on 3-4 versions of it, ditto sensors, Digic, video, lenses. Each Product Line Manager would then get to draw on whichever iteration is available as an individual model comes up for alpha testing and draws the line at features.

Uh no, you don't build products like that.

My bad to you and PBD, I only based it on the MK IIIs. But if you look, as you clearly did, more are around the 3 year range than 12-18 months.

Re Entry level kit - again, you can indeed find exceptions. Now please tell me across the 1xxx, and XXXd ranges what the average is.

My point, as you know, is that Canon's higher end kit doesnt change 12-18 months

They have no obligation to offer a replacement sensor, I agree. I dont think they will have to, as I dont believe there will be a replacement during 2016. I'd be happy personally if there were, but I just dont think they will. And I think if they did, without offering something to the existing users, there would be an impact to their image.

Sony do it more regularly (every year? I dont follow them closely enough) - they've set that expectation. Canon and I believe Nikon are more conservative on their cycles, and becoming more so.

And since you have insider knowledge on Canon's product development, I'm happy Dilbert to be wrong a second time - although I only said "suspect". You clearly know how - I'm all ears

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

@jeffa4444 & Dilbert

Sorry, disagree to a point.

Canon Product cycles are around 3 years for their Prosumer & Pro ranges. Have been for ages. In fact CR has stated that those cycles will probably get longer (less revenue, less investment, less people, longer cycles)

Any of the entry level kit - sure, that does get updated every 12-18 months, although I suspect a "high street" consumer, who does little internet research, would not realise that...

Anyone buying a 5Ds would have an expectation that Canon would not replace their model within a year. Canon might produce a 1xx version, sure. A 6xx version ? Highly unlikely based on target market. Canon's research has indicated that the 5xx form is the most profitable.

I cannot see them replacing it within a year/18 months without offering something to existing users.

Does Canon start the next Dev cycle before the current one is launched - for existing lines, sure. For the first model in a new line - perhaps 6-12 months later, as you want to see how well you assessed the target market.

In parallel I suspect they have R&D teams, one looking at all things AF and working on 3-4 versions of it, ditto sensors, Digic, video, lenses. Each Product Line Manager would then get to draw on whichever iteration is available as an individual model comes up for alpha testing and draws the line at features. It's clearly more involved then I've highlighted, but at 30,000 ft...

This all assumes that the new camera is part of a new R&D cycle, and not leftover from the old. Suppose they were ready to go with a world-beating 5DS, except for the next-gen sensor, which had a few problems to resolve. If they felt they couldn't wait for the sensor to be ready, they may have gone ahead with 7D2 sensor tech instead. I wouldn't mind having a 5DS, but I'm happy with my 70D for now, and will wait to see what comes next.

That wasnt quite my point - I surmised they have R&D cycles and product cycles, and therefore as you say, the 5Ds was indeed ready ahead of the sensor. They concluded to ship with the 7D2 sensor was acceptable and their target base would be "ok" with that.

Sensor tech continues to get improved within the R&D cycles. Specific products take the current sensor tech as their cycle dictates, or adjust their cycle.

I dont think the next product cycle for the 5Ds will be next year - only some 12-18 months after the initial release. I think Canon are too conservative for that. Sony would indeed release it - they appear to have set that expectation. Unless Canon are changing that based on the shrinking overall market - which I thought CR had said in fact the cycles may get longer.

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

...
My bad to you and PBD, I only based it on the MK IIIs. But if you look, as you clearly did, more are around the 3 year range than 12-18 months.
...
My point, as you know, is that Canon's higher end kit doesnt change 12-18 months

So rather than look at all of the statistical information you're only looking at the data that supports your theory.

Here's another theory for you - the 5DS was rushed to market because of Sony/Nikon and was really intended to arrive in 2016, so the 2015 camera was a compromise.

No, I'm saying with my interpretation of their current approach to development means they wont replace it as soon as you suggest they might.

By the same token they released the C300 MK II with the same sensor tech.

Every release is a compromise. I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the 5Ds will get the new sensor tech, and if indeed the jump is significant, then it will appear quicker.

My current view is 2017 not 2016, and that may change if the sensor tech in the 1Dx/5Dx is a step up as opposed to incremental.

You've still side-stepped the Prod Devl approach

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

...
My bad to you and PBD, I only based it on the MK IIIs. But if you look, as you clearly did, more are around the 3 year range than 12-18 months.
...
My point, as you know, is that Canon's higher end kit doesnt change 12-18 months

So rather than look at all of the statistical information you're only looking at the data that supports your theory.

Here's another theory for you - the 5DS was rushed to market because of Sony/Nikon and was really intended to arrive in 2016, so the 2015 camera was a compromise.

No, I'm saying with my interpretation of their current approach to development means they wont replace it as soon as you suggest they might.

It's not me suggesting they might replace it next year, it is the source of a rumor.

You want to disagree with the rumor so selectively choose pieces of data to support your thinking and ignore the rest.

My current view is 2017 not 2016, and that may change if the sensor tech in the 1Dx/5Dx is a step up as opposed to incremental.

That pretty much puts you on the fence.

It's the other way round for me - data and information drive my decision. You want to quote earlier models to refute, I've used later models. That's not selective, that's focusing on the recent.

Are you not selectively chosing which part of my conversation to dispute is therefore just PKB?

If you dont have an opinion, other to tell others "uh, no, it's not like that", then is that really a discussion?

If 2 years after the 5Ds, ie not before Jun 2017 put's me on the fence, then fine, I'll watch out for them damn pesky splinters

But if the information at hand changes, ie they do make a step change (for them) in sensor, then it would be stubborn and foolish not to adjust.