Canon EOS 6D Mark II Not Coming Until Spring? [CR2]

[benkam]

What Canon could do if they want a true entry-level full-frame and a mid-range prosumer full-frame, they could roll out the 6D Mark II with 25MP, 6fps, improved AF, flippy screen, dual SD, 4K, same 6D-level weather resistance (so a good way behind the improved 5D4 weather sealing), and push the launch price up a bit from from the original 1799 to $1,999.

And then at the same time, take the good old 6D, do almost nothing new with it -- so still the same 20MP, 4.5fps, same AF, single SD, HD only -- put it in a plastic, er polycarbonate, body, and the only thing new being a fixed 1.04M-dot touchscreen since even the SL1/100D has one. Voila, new-build full-frame for the masses. Call it a single-digit 8D and price it at, a ground-breaking for full-frame, $999.

 

[Maiaibing]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

6D launch at far too high a price. Canon gave it a better sensor than the 5DIII, wifi and gps but it was still overpriced at ~2,100$. However at ~1,000$ its a virtual steal. Think I paid ~1,200$ for mine which I use as a very capable back-up. Best value camera Canon ever made. I think they have sold a lot after the price came down. Probably got a few Canon shooters hooked on FF and L-lenses at the same time.

I'm sure Canon will go for the same price level again (>2,000$). Just give it a better sensor than the 5DIV and I'll pick one up fast.

 

[tr573]

.. and total lack of weather sealing - this on its own would be a deal breaker for many.

"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_the_canon_eos_6d.do

"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

Canon's nonsense marketing speak aside, neither camera is water proof and neither camera is warrantied against water damage, so whatever.

1/180 max x-sync speed.

As silly as this was as a differentiation that Canon shoehorned in, it's even sillier when people act like it makes a lick of difference. It's a sixth of a stop. For all intents and purposes it's pretty much the same as a 1/200th sync speed.

 

[ahsanford]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

Likewise, maybe they might be better off making the 7D more capable and keeping it above $2,000.

It's very hard to get and maintain $2k for a crop camera. There is a well funded birding/wildlife group that will jump at a 1DX-lite for $2500, but there aren't enough of them. So the demand for it isn't nearly as durable as (say) a wedding photographer, portrait studio, news agencies, etc.

Consider: Canon is only finishing up year two (out of presumably 5) on the market and the 7D2's price has already eroded considerably. I'm not sure how you maintain a high price on one without dramatically moving it upmarket -- go full 1DX-lite with an integrated grip, bomb-proof build, much higher fatigue rating on the shutter, etc. But even then, that climb in price will undercut its units and overall profitability will suffer.

Nikon may actually have been wise to abandon this segment for as long as it did.

- A

 

[Alex_M]

1. it turns out that 6D weather sealing does not live up to the expectations. see this short video for details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZMJiOjFSk

2. 1/180 s X-Sync speed:

You cannot get to 1/180 if your camera aperture, ISO and shutter increments set in 1/3 of a stop and you shoot in Manual mode. the closest you can get is 1/160. so that's more like 1/3 of a stop?
to me it is more about the ability to control ambient light if I have wider range of shutter speed available to me.
Yes, HSS works well but whenever I crossed into that territory, it cost me approximatelly 2.5 stops of my speedlite power.
And if you happen to use light meter for studio shots or for accurate ambient light metering and your light meter is set in 1/3 of a stop to match your camera settings. same issue: if you set your T=1/180 then you get ISO and F increments in 1/2 of a stop instead and wise versa. Pain in the neck.

If you shoot in AV mode and set you X-Sync to be 1/180 fixed in settings then you can still have your F and ISO set in 1/3 of a stop.

.. and total lack of weather sealing - this on its own would be a deal breaker for many.

"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_the_canon_eos_6d.do

"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

Canon's nonsense marketing speak aside, neither camera is water proof and neither camera is warrantied against water damage, so whatever.

1/180 max x-sync speed.

As silly as this was as a differentiation that Canon shoehorned in, it's even sillier when people act like it makes a lick of difference. It's a sixth of a stop. For all intents and purposes it's pretty much the same as a 1/200th sync speed.

 

[rrcphoto]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

weird. because in my world $1500 is not "nearing $1000" ..

also .. I'm sure the costs associated with it have been amortized completely out so Canon probably does not regret it at all.

they certainly aren't going to sell a new 6D mark II for your "nearing $1000" amount.

 

[rrcphoto]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

6D launch at far too high a price. Canon gave it a better sensor than the 5DIII, wifi and gps but it was still overpriced at ~2,100$.

the Yen was at a all time high when it came out.

 

[tr573]

1. it turns out that 6D weather sealing does not live up to the expectations. see this short video for details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZMJiOjFSk

Like I said, Canon marketing speak aside I wouldn't trust any camera not warrantied against water intrusion unprotected with water, unless I had insurance on it.

We can say the 7D2 or the 5D3 is better sealed, but what does that really mean? It has more flimsy rubber gaskets that may or may not have been properly installed, and may or may not have been properly greased, and may or may not fail the first time you take it in the rain and then Canon will do nothing for you and you are out your money. I don't worry about manufacturers claims on water sealing, because I don't trust them - if they don't stand behind it, they don't consider it adequate either.

Edit: Look at it this way - this isn't a watch where you can actually pen test it in water without getting any water inside it if the seals fail. If it fails, you're out a camera.

2. 1/180 s X-Sync speed:

You cannot get to 1/180 if your camera aperture, ISO and shutter increments set in 1/3 of a stop and you shoot in Manual mode. the closest you can get is 1/160. so that's more like 1/3 of a stop?
to me it is more about the ability to control ambient light if I have wider range of shutter speed available to me.
Yes, HSS works well but whenever I crossed into that territory, it cost me approximatelly 2.5 stops of my speedlite power.
And if you happen to use light meter for studio shots or for accurate ambient light metering and your light meter is set in 1/3 of a stop to match your camera settings. same issue: if you set your T=1/180 then you get ISO and F increments in 1/2 of a stop instead and wise versa. Pain in the neck.

If you shoot in AV mode and set you X-Sync to be 1/180 fixed in settings then you can still have your F and ISO set in 1/3 of a stop.

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

 

[Famateur]

I think my main point is that people can't assume a spec will increase from one model version to the next (e.g. 6D to 6DII) just because there's functionality headroom between it and the next tier. For example, I would bet that the FPS won't move much in a 6D series body for the foreseeable future because it's already at a level that satisfies the intended market. I also highly doubt we'd see a second card slot, as one slot is all most entry-level people think they need.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, in fact even hear you on the FPS. However, Canon isn't the only player in the market. It's not like they get to build out their own perfect product differentiation where each camera slots in to what they think we deserve and at what price.

Take the current 6D's whole 11 focal points. It's obsolete on so many levels, even by Canon's own entry level Rebels now, let alone the competition. And Canon has relatively long product cycles so they need to release something that is not just competitive for a few months at release time, but something that still looks good 2, 3 years out.

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see dual SD slots. It hardly costs Canon anything, and Nikon and others have dual slots available on similar market slotted and even much cheaper cameras.

In short, if Canon is going to ask $2k+ for this camera it really need to pack some of the power/features the competition is delivering on bodies they have at similar, even cheaper prices.

Excellent points.

 

[Maiaibing]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

weird. because in my world $1500 is not "nearing $1000" ..

also .. I'm sure the costs associated with it have been amortized completely out so Canon probably does not regret it at all.

they certainly aren't going to sell a new 6D mark II for your "nearing $1000" amount.

Got mine 16 months ago for ~1.200$ in Europe (after VAT refund).

 

[Maiaibing]

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

 

[tr573]

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.

 

[Ryananthony]

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.

Hopefully this isn't too off topic or perhaps I can be lead in appropriate direction, I just googled sync speeds vs high speed sync, I'm still not making sense of it. Why do camera sync speeds matter, if you can just use high speed sync to freeze anything past the camera set sync speed. I'm obviously missing something but I've never used flash more then simple top mount ttl set up a couple times. Thanks

 

[tr573]

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.

Hopefully this isn't too off topic or perhaps I can be lead in appropriate direction, I just googled sync speeds vs high speed sync, I'm still not making sense of it. Why do camera sync speeds matter, if you can just use high speed sync to freeze anything past the camera set sync speed. I'm obviously missing something but I've never used flash more then simple top mount ttl set up a couple times. Thanks

Flash sync is the fastest shutter speed at which the shutter can be entirely open at once , so that the flash can pulse while it's fully open. Above sync speed, the shutter has to travel across the sensor/film like a slit, and the entire thing is never exposed at once. The higher you go, the smaller the slit becomes.

HSS flash will "pulse" the flash rapidly as this happens, so that it can expose the whole sensor - but you lose flash power because it obviously can't pulse multiple times at the same power it can dump it's entire charge at once at. The higher you go in shutter speed, the more power you lose, because it has to pulse more times to expose the whole sensor.

 

[Ryananthony]

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.

Hopefully this isn't too off topic or perhaps I can be lead in appropriate direction, I just googled sync speeds vs high speed sync, I'm still not making sense of it. Why do camera sync speeds matter, if you can just use high speed sync to freeze anything past the camera set sync speed. I'm obviously missing something but I've never used flash more then simple top mount ttl set up a couple times. Thanks

Flash sync is the fastest shutter speed at which the shutter can be entirely open at once , so that the flash can pulse while it's fully open. Above sync speed, the shutter has to travel across the sensor/film like a slit, and the entire thing is never exposed at once. The higher you go, the smaller the slit becomes.

HSS flash will "pulse" the flash rapidly as this happens, so that it can expose the whole sensor - but you lose flash power because it obviously can't pulse multiple times at the same power it can dump it's entire charge at once at. The higher you go in shutter speed, the more power you lose, because it has to pulse more times to expose the whole sensor.

Beautiful. Thanks for the quick and easy explanation. I aprreciate it, and understand now.

 

[9VIII]

I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

Likewise, maybe they might be better off making the 7D more capable and keeping it above $2,000.

It's very hard to get and maintain $2k for a crop camera. There is a well funded birding/wildlife group that will jump at a 1DX-lite for $2500, but there aren't enough of them. So the demand for it isn't nearly as durable as (say) a wedding photographer, portrait studio, news agencies, etc.

Consider: Canon is only finishing up year two (out of presumably 5) on the market and the 7D2's price has already eroded considerably. I'm not sure how you maintain a high price on one without dramatically moving it upmarket -- go full 1DX-lite with an integrated grip, bomb-proof build, much higher fatigue rating on the shutter, etc. But even then, that climb in price will undercut its units and overall profitability will suffer.

Nikon may actually have been wise to abandon this segment for as long as it did.

- A

Right, if it's a low unit sales segment no matter what, they should treat it more like the 1D.
Dropping the price within six months of release indicates it did not sell well, if the market is that small, maybe a $3,000 body with significantly better features is exactly what the market is looking for?
I wouldn't be surprised if competition from crazy high burst rates on mirrorless cameras is eroding the 7D2's intended price point, if the perceived value equation on the market is changing, then maybe they just need to make a more capable plastic body for less money.

Which is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for right now. 7D in an SL1 body (with a Flippy Screen).
Or the M5, but I'm going to have to look at a lot of reviews on its birding performance before I would be convinced it's actually suitable for my purposes.

 

[Gnocchi]

Good! They should be concentrating there efforts on a 50mm replacement, not another body.

 

[Alex_M]

Sorry, the issue is not about being unable to freeze the moment. Flash duration is less than 1/200 anyway so that does not affect the moment freezing ability It is all about ability to control Ambient light. The faster shutter speed the higher flash to ambient light ratio and so on and so forth.

Yes , one can meter for T=1/200 and shot in T=1/180 instead. That is possible but is annoying as...

At times I think that Canon deliberately annoys the heck out of 6D users to push them over the edge and into the 5D camp. Now, that's smart but .. annoying...

You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.

The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???

I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.

 

[The Flasher]

If rumors hold true, the dual cards and tilt screen will be enough to upgrade current 6D. Slightly faster flash sync and few more x-type af points a bonus. 4k? Meh, 6D was useless for video without the aa filter, I expect a relative bump in uselessness in mark 2.

 

[ahsanford]

If rumors hold true, the dual cards and tilt screen will be enough to upgrade current 6D. Slightly faster flash sync and few more x-type af points a bonus. 4k? Meh, 6D was useless for video without the aa filter, I expect a relative bump in uselessness in mark 2.

6D2 advantages over the 6D1:

Certainly: A new FF sensor with on chip ADC
Certainly: A much better AF system
Certainly: Touchscreen
Probably: DPAF
Probably: Tilty-flippy
Probably: Small bump in fps
Possibly: Anti-flicker mode
Possibly: 2 card slots
Possibly: 1/200 flash sync
Possibly: 4K
Possibly: 1/8000 max shutter speed
Possibly: More f/8 AF points for wildlifer TC use

The two in bold alone will get the brand business, but surely some of the 'probably' entries will happen as well.

- A