Canon EOS 80D Talk [CR1]

[verysimplejason]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

...
Nikon is losing the APS-C wildlife crowd because Canon offers a top-line 'mini-1DX' product line that is rather beastly from an AF, burst and build quality perspective and Nikon does not offer a similar price point camera. It's as simple as that.
...

And Canon is losing the APS-C holiday/travel crowd. Nearly everyone else I've seen on holiday in the last week has had a Nikon APS-C camera. One had a mirrorless. I've seen a rather large and portly man with a Canon DSLR (probably full frame) that looked like it had been used about as much as he had exercised.

Who are there more of?
1) APS-C wildlife shooters
2) people going on holidays that want to take holiday pics

I'm sorry but I can't help but react from your generalization. Do you have any proof on this? If not, then did you go to all those holiday places and properly took a scan of all the cameras being used by those people?

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

...
Nikon is losing the APS-C wildlife crowd because Canon offers a top-line 'mini-1DX' product line that is rather beastly from an AF, burst and build quality perspective and Nikon does not offer a similar price point camera. It's as simple as that.
...

And Canon is losing the APS-C holiday/travel crowd. Nearly everyone else I've seen on holiday in the last week has had a Nikon APS-C camera. One had a mirrorless. I've seen a rather large and portly man with a Canon DSLR (probably full frame) that looked like it had been used about as much as he had exercised.

Who are there more of?
1) APS-C wildlife shooters
2) people going on holidays that want to take holiday pics

Agree. But that's the Rebel/D5500 crowd, not the 70D/D7200 crowd. Why tourists/vacationers are choosing Nikon over Canon comes down to soccer mom / hockey dad shoppers finding a better value in the overall feature set per dollar -- they aren't trolling DXO for the latest sensor scores.

I just don't think the 70D/80D offering level is a huge chunk of casual shooters. It screams 'I paid more for this rig because I wanted AFMA, a top LCD, an intervalometer, a fancy AF system, etc.', i.e enthusiast -- not 'Dave from accounting on holiday'.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

...
I'm sorry but I can't help but react from your generalization. Do you have any proof on this? If not, then did you go to all those holiday places and properly took a scan of all the cameras being used by those people?

When newspapers conduct polls, they select 1000 random people and use that to represent millions. A small random sample is considered to be representative of a much larger number.

I have no control over who I see or what they are carrying, so for all intents and purposes, the sample of people carrying DSLRs that I see is effectively random. Although the number hasn't been large (maybe 10 to 20), the trend thus far has been for no Canon APS-C DSLRs. Take that to mean what you will.

Anecdotally from my perspective, I'll back Dilbert up. I am like a hawk eyeballing everyone's gear at touristy places. I simply see more Nikon D5x00 cameras than I see Canon Rebels these days, and non-trivially so. A few years back it was the other way around.

But no, I have no hard data to share. I believe Canon T#i cameras absolutely crush on sales aggregators like Amazon, but it's hard to sift through that intelligently -- it's just a tote board of best selling but with no timeframe, context, etc.

- A

 

[verysimplejason]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

...
I'm sorry but I can't help but react from your generalization. Do you have any proof on this? If not, then did you go to all those holiday places and properly took a scan of all the cameras being used by those people?

When newspapers conduct polls, they select 1000 random people and use that to represent millions. A small random sample is considered to be representative of a much larger number.

I have no control over who I see or what they are carrying, so for all intents and purposes, the sample of people carrying DSLRs that I see is effectively random. Although the number hasn't been large (maybe 10 to 20), the trend thus far has been for no Canon APS-C DSLRs. Take that to mean what you will.

Anecdotally from my perspective, I'll back Dilbert up. I am like a hawk eyeballing everyone's gear at touristy places. I simply see more Nikon D5x00 cameras than I see Canon Rebels these days, and non-trivially so. A few years back it was the other way around.

But no, I have no hard data to share. I believe Canon T#i cameras absolutely crush on sales aggregators like Amazon, but it's hard to sift through that intelligently -- it's just a tote board of best selling but with no timeframe, context, etc.

- A

Then these claims are just unintelligent conclusions designed to convince others to agree with you. Correct? Shouldn't it be more appropriate to have a more concrete proof as basis of our views?

 

[mkabi]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

...
I'm sorry but I can't help but react from your generalization. Do you have any proof on this? If not, then did you go to all those holiday places and properly took a scan of all the cameras being used by those people?

When newspapers conduct polls, they select 1000 random people and use that to represent millions. A small random sample is considered to be representative of a much larger number.

I have no control over who I see or what they are carrying, so for all intents and purposes, the sample of people carrying DSLRs that I see is effectively random. Although the number hasn't been large (maybe 10 to 20), the trend thus far has been for no Canon APS-C DSLRs. Take that to mean what you will.

Anecdotally from my perspective, I'll back Dilbert up. I am like a hawk eyeballing everyone's gear at touristy places. I simply see more Nikon D5x00 cameras than I see Canon Rebels these days, and non-trivially so. A few years back it was the other way around.

But no, I have no hard data to share. I believe Canon T#i cameras absolutely crush on sales aggregators like Amazon, but it's hard to sift through that intelligently -- it's just a tote board of best selling but with no timeframe, context, etc.

- A

Then these claims are just unintelligent conclusions designed to convince others to agree with you. Correct? Shouldn't it be more appropriate to have a more concrete proof as basis of our views?

I've actually seen something similar. Literally a year ago, may be even 2, I saw a rebel in everybody's hand (mainly around the neck of every uncle Tom, by the way I'm hindu so it would be something along the lines of Uncle Kumar), especially at weddings. I went to a wedding on Aug. 29 of this year... it was raided by Nikons (every Uncle Kumar had a Nikon around his neck). The professional photographers were still using Canon and L glass... so I didn't care what the Uncle Kumars were doing.

I've sort of noticed this trend when I went to my local camera store... 2 of those occasions within this summer, btw.. brown people notice brown people... I noticed that my people were not only eyeing Nikon, but asking the clerk questions and intent on buying Nikon equipment. Meanwhile, I was eyeing the Canon and Sony station.

In terms of "concrete" proof... hmmm may be I can get my cousins wedding video from 2 years ago and then another copy of the recent wedding?

 

[9VIII]

or you shoot mRAW.

Just for that everything else you said is irrelevant. It's actually pretty funny.

 

[Luds34]

...
Would the majority of xxD users really want 34 MP ? I'd be surprised. Half makes me wonder if Canon isn't putting a little misinformation out there.

You're about to go out, packing up your things and you look at your 70D. It's a 20MP camera but the phone in your pocket has twice the number. Half the image size, 10 times the bulk. You walk out the door and the 70D gets left behind and remind yourself not to spend $hundreds/$thousands when your phone makes pictures that are twice the size, making it easier to crop for selfies, etc.

Rinse and repeat 70D with T5i, etc.

How do you sell a relatively huge DSLR with 20MP or less to an audience that has 30MP+ in their phone that fits in their pocket?

This is a joke right? Whatever megapixel number is put on a cell phone is pure marketing BS anyway. Aka, they are waaaay too high and the realistic effective MP is much lower. So you get the worse of all worlds, large file sizes and crappy actual resolution and detail. Not to mention ergonomics, but I won't waste time/energy there.

 

[whothafunk]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

And Canon is losing the APS-C holiday/travel crowd. Nearly everyone else I've seen on holiday in the last week has had a Nikon APS-C camera. One had a mirrorless.

Not in Europe. I've been backpacking through whole Portugal for 25 days and 99% of tourist had a rebel or xxD Canon (a small number had 6D/5D).

I also visited Italy and Spain for 3 weeks in total and same story applies there.

 

[Bennymiata]

I think the XXd line is very important for Canon.
I currently have a 70d and had a 60d before that, and I've seen lots of 60 and 70Ds floating around.

I mainly use my 70d for video (and use my 5d3 for stills) and according to a couple of camerashop salesmen, DPAF is a HUGE selling point for most mums and dads as it makes videoing little Joey running around, so much easier.

I never met a megapixel I didn't like, and for me, the more the better.
I do occasional weddings and have 2000 photos to upload etc (all in raw), as well as lots of video, and using a good USB3 card reader, the cards dowload in a few minutes. I use an HP Workstation and have no problem processing the raw files either, so if too many mpxls are a problem for you, get a better computer.
These days, your computer IS an important part of your photography gear, so don't skimp. You update your bodies every few years, and you should also keep your computer up to date too.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon has strategic interest in the market moving to higher MP

Anecdotally from my perspective, I'll back Dilbert up. I am like a hawk eyeballing everyone's gear at touristy places. I simply see more Nikon D5x00 cameras than I see Canon Rebels these days, and non-trivially so. A few years back it was the other way around.

But no, I have no hard data to share. I believe Canon T#i cameras absolutely crush on sales aggregators like Amazon, but it's hard to sift through that intelligently -- it's just a tote board of best selling but with no timeframe, context, etc.

- A

Then these claims are just unintelligent conclusions designed to convince others to agree with you. Correct? Shouldn't it be more appropriate to have a more concrete proof as basis of our views?

Come now. Read all the red above and ask yourself what 'claim' I made.

I'm sharing my opinion, that's all -- how often do people selling you something offer clear faults in their methods like I just did? I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Again, it's just my perspective, and I welcome hard data, honestly. I could very well be wrong.

- A

 

[Sporgon]

...
Would the majority of xxD users really want 34 MP ? I'd be surprised. Half makes me wonder if Canon isn't putting a little misinformation out there.

You're about to go out, packing up your things and you look at your 70D. It's a 20MP camera but the phone in your pocket has twice the number. Half the image size, 10 times the bulk. You walk out the door and the 70D gets left behind and remind yourself not to spend $hundreds/$thousands when your phone makes pictures that are twice the size, making it easier to crop for selfies, etc.

Rinse and repeat 70D with T5i, etc.

How do you sell a relatively huge DSLR with 20MP or less to an audience that has 30MP+ in their phone that fits in their pocket?

This is a joke right? Whatever megapixel number is put on a cell phone is pure marketing BS anyway. Aka, they are waaaay too high and the realistic effective MP is much lower. So you get the worse of all worlds, large file sizes and crappy actual resolution and detail. Not to mention ergonomics, but I won't waste time/energy there.

I didn't see this because I'm ignoring dilbert. I am guessing that as time progresses, and more people have had access to (proper) cameras in excess of about 12 MP, people are becoming more educated in how many MP they need to produce potentially superb images. As time goes on fewer people will have the child-like simplicity of dilbert in thinking "if it's got more MP it's better". The iPhone 6 is very good in what it does, but comparing the versatility with a 70D is......well, let's not go there.

 

[Sporgon]

or you shoot mRAW.

Just for that everything else you said is irrelevant. It's actually pretty funny.

Yes, bit of a whoopsies there. M and s raw are fine for saving file size, and I am perfectly happy with the IQ if I use DPP to convert, but they take a lot longer to convert than normal files, so in terms of workflow speed they can be a pain if you have enough of them.

 

[JohanCruyff]

The megapixel debate leads my thoughts towards a tool that I'd like to put in my wish-list: the EOS 6DMark II.
I hope it won't exceed 22-24Mpixel, but if the "enthusiast APS-C" delivers 28 or more, I'm afraid the "basic Full Frame" (6DMark II) will also have (about) 30 Megapixels, just like today (both 70D and 6D offer 20 Mpx).

 

[Jet20]

Count me out then! The 70D does not need more pixels you won't even see with typical prosumer lenses used with this class of cameras, and more toy features, but better high ISO quality (ISO-1600 is a marked step down from the 60D - whatever the reviews say -, and this only for a 2MP increase!)

Respectfully disagree. As an owner of a 70D and multiple cameras that had the same old 18MP sensor in it, I'd say one of biggest differences (besides the awesome DPAF) was the high ISO ability. The 70D can shoot ISO 6400 (obviously not ideal) but trying to pull that off on my M or old T2i just fell apart badly. And it's less the noise, it's the color and blue fringing in the corners, etc. Nope, the 20 MP 70D sensor was a long overdue step up from the one in your 60D.

Your experience does not necessarily contradict mine. It is possible that the 70D is capable of ultra high ISO output and does so better than the 60D. I wouldn't know because in either case the quality is too low for my uses. However, I was saying specifically that ISO 1600 quality is worse on the 70D than on 60D and I do care about that since it is the auto ISO maximum I use and routinely have to fall back to in low light to keep the shutter speeds I need.

 

[whothafunk]

And I bet my money on 24MP sensor for 80D (just like in latest rebels), "same-MP-count-but-not-exactly-the-same-sensor" as with the 70D - 7D2 scenario.

It's gonna have a Digic6+ or Digic 7 processor, and for that, it's gonna have a slightly better noise handling.

Mark my words, as I'll be back requoting myself once it's released.

 

[LonelyBoy]

I didn't see this because I'm ignoring dilbert. I am guessing that as time progresses, and more people have had access to (proper) cameras in excess of about 12 MP, people are becoming more educated in how many MP they need to produce potentially superb images. As time goes on fewer people will have the child-like simplicity of dilbert in thinking "if it's got more MP it's better". The iPhone 6 is very good in what it does, but comparing the versatility with a 70D is......well, let's not go there.

Really? I still see people thinking their cell phone at Xmpx takes equally good photos as a DSLR of Xmpx. The whole "taken on an iPhone 6" print campaign certainly doesn't dissuade this idea.

I don't even think it's about 12mpx - my OLD D40 at 6mpx could get better results than a modern smartphone.

 

[Sporgon]

I didn't see this because I'm ignoring dilbert. I am guessing that as time progresses, and more people have had access to (proper) cameras in excess of about 12 MP, people are becoming more educated in how many MP they need to produce potentially superb images. As time goes on fewer people will have the child-like simplicity of dilbert in thinking "if it's got more MP it's better". The iPhone 6 is very good in what it does, but comparing the versatility with a 70D is......well, let's not go there.

Really? I still see people thinking their cell phone at Xmpx takes equally good photos as a DSLR of Xmpx. The whole "taken on an iPhone 6" print campaign certainly doesn't dissuade this idea.

I don't even think it's about 12mpx - my OLD D40 at 6mpx could get better results than a modern smartphone.

For those people it probably does produce pictures that are equally good, perhaps even better. But those types of cameras have a fairy small window of opportunity to produce decent quality, photographically speaking, when compared with a 'proper' camera. Any reasonably capable person who understands the important principles of photography would be able to produce excellent images for the "taken on an iPhone", but you'd have to choose your moment according.

 

[jeffa4444]

...
Would the majority of xxD users really want 34 MP ? I'd be surprised. Half makes me wonder if Canon isn't putting a little misinformation out there.

You're about to go out, packing up your things and you look at your 70D. It's a 20MP camera but the phone in your pocket has twice the number. Half the image size, 10 times the bulk. You walk out the door and the 70D gets left behind and remind yourself not to spend $hundreds/$thousands when your phone makes pictures that are twice the size, making it easier to crop for selfies, etc.

Rinse and repeat 70D with T5i, etc.

How do you sell a relatively huge DSLR with 20MP or less to an audience that has 30MP+ in their phone that fits in their pocket?

Dilbert when youve left your 70D at home and taken your 30MP Smartphone and you see that elusive Kingfisher and realise its just a dot on the screen then you remember why you should have taken the 70D.
Ive been part of an experiment at our camera club taking one photo for 365 days on my iPhone 6 I cannot tell you how many times I wanted to throw it in the bin because I cannot frame the shot I want.

 

[jeffa4444]

Two points to add to the thread:-

In Cornwall at the Lizard I was talking to photographers photographing seals, they saw I had a full-frame camera and said forget it if you want more keepers you need a crop camera.

This week at our camera club we had an editor from a leading photographic magazine and various photographs he had shot from a selection of cameras including the Canon 5DS R. The 5DS R shots were landscapes taken on a tripod and the prints were A3 they sat side by side with A3 prints from a medium format 50MP Pentax camera and as hard as I tried I could not see any quality differences, the prints were all high grade art gloss papers and looked stunning.

The moral of the story for me is equipment is designed to suit a purpose, its not one size fits all and unlike some on the thread the more choices we have the better because were all different.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

Oh lord the ''I need MP'' vs ''I don't need MP'' war.

Guess what? you have two different needs.

Amazing concept ha?

That two people shoot high resolution fine detail art and the other shoots high ISO lowlight sports/journalism.

It's a mind-boggling concept I know.

Never thought people had different needs.