Canon Full Frame Mirrorless [CR2]

[Canon Rumors]

We’re told once again that a full frame mirrorless camera is definitely in the works at Canon. As we’ve also said before, the biggest challenge to the design team is making good use of EF mount lenses. There will not be a 4th mount (EF, EF-S, EF-M) added to the Canon ILC lineup.</p>
<p>It’s possible we’re going to see a full frame mirrorless fixed lens camera from Canon before we see an ILC full frame mirrorless. We were told a while ago that such a camera was in development and apparently that is still ongoing.</p>
<p>The product roadmap for mirrorless from Canon has no been finalized and there’s a good chance we’re going to hear a lot of conflicting information over the coming months. The source doesn’t expect any sort of full frame mirrorless announcement until the end of 2017 at the earliest.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
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[Chaitanya]

as long as it gets sensor from 5d mk iv and dual card slots.

 

[rrcphoto]

We’re told once again that a full frame mirrorless camera is definitely in the works at Canon. As we’ve also said before, the biggest challenge to the design team is making good use of EF mount lenses. There will not be a 4th mount (EF, EF-S, EF-M) added to the Canon ILC lineup.</p>

the path of least resistance for canon is easily the EF mount.

- total "native" lens catalog
- no new sensor redesign or implementing BSI.
- easiest for marketing.

I doubt it's much of a challenge that way outside of the usual suspects a) battery life and b) ergonomics.

going the other way means that canon has to roll out a new lens lineup and then deal with the FUD of an EF-Mx full frame lens lineup being more developed than the EF mount lineup .. aka Sony.

will they go cheap and small .. or will they go premium and larger? I think would be the struggle / challenge for the marketing and development departments. They see Sony doing well in NA.. but struggling domestically.

Canon really cares about domestic. Canon USA has their own "beefs" I'm sure.

I think Canon is more challenged in coming out with something that is good for all regions.

also .. if these are coming out in 2017, the designs and the camera is basically already done.

 

[ahsanford]

CR: "There will not be a 4th mount (EF, EF-S, EF-M) added to the Canon ILC lineup"
= the statement heard round the CR Forum world. That's a massive statement. We've been speculating about this for a very long time!

So, if true, that would mean that...

• Mount / body junction: we're headed to (something resembling) the built-in 'tube' of the recent Sigma Quattro models (see pic below) ...unless they are going to simply pull the mirror from an existing FF rig, which seems very not-serious for something that is relatively long overdue.
  
  
• Positive reality of no 4th mount: No new lenses to buy = less investment burden for existing Canon owners to get in on the new platform = higher adoption rate. Also, there's no way you can leave an EF adaptor at home if it's built-into the camera.
  
  
• Painful reality of no 4th mount: no super tiny FF rig with purpose-built small mount lenses. The Tiny Form Factor Committee (a.k.a. the 'Mirrorless is about making is smaller, dummy' folks -- who are not a small group) will be pretty miffed about this. Like a great disturbance in the force, I can hear the 'Stupid Canon' call from AvTvM already.
  
  
  
• Canon is sticking to its strengths rather than making a large investment to follow the A7's lead: I don't know if this means Canon thinks FF users don't care about size / think size is-what-it-is with FF and they are onboard with it or if they are just being stingy by not offering the thinner mount with a few tiny lenses.
  

I wonder if Nikon will make the same (no new mount for FF mirrorless) decision or if they will try to keep it small when they make a foray into this market.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

the sigma has to be the worst example.

take a rebel body. it will be around the same form factor.

 

[ahsanford]

Still sinking in. This is big news.

As much as our polls correctly pegged this decision by Canon as the practical / 'it is what it is' (this is what FF needs) sort of call, I'm still a little shocked Canon would concede the entire 'keep it small' slice of the FF market to Sony, Leica, etc.

There are some very big spenders in that camp, are there not?

- A

 

[ahsanford]

the sigma has to be the worst example.

take a rebel body. it will be around the same form factor.

Well, they could be complete hacks and just pull the mirror from a 5D4 and say 'but the current ergonomics are so great'. In effect, if you are bolting a 70-200 f/2.8L IS II on this thing -- which people will 100% do on day one -- you'd actually want a stout body with a chunky grip.

But I think the identity of mirrorless is 'smaller' even if FF sensors mean huge lenses. I think they have to try to put a 5D on a diet and accentuate the lack of a mirror in the body design... even if it has the full EF mount. No idea how they will pull that off.

- A

 

[unfocused]

Not a big surprise. Three lens mounts is already about two too many as it is.

Once you get into full frame, any size advantage to mirrorless evaporates anyway.

A fixed-mount f4 24-105 zoom mirrorless would meet the needs of about 70% or more of users. But, there might be some psychological resistance to overcome to convince people to pay $2,500 or more for a camera that has only one lens.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next several years. I'm not holding my breath on this materializing any time soon.

 

[ahsanford]

Not a big surprise. Three lens mounts is already about two too many as it is.

Once you get into full frame, any size advantage to mirrorless evaporates anyway.

A fixed-mount f4 24-105 zoom mirrorless would meet the needs of about 70% or more of users. But, there might be some psychological resistance to overcome to convince people to pay $2,500 or more for a camera that has only one lens.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next several years. I'm not holding my breath on this materializing any time soon.

If it's fixed, it will be small as hell. Think RX1R or Leica Q -- with a fixed 24, 28 or 35mm lens. No chance they go with a fixed zoom lens, especially not up to 105. I just can't see it.

Fixed lens = the Fuji x100 / Leica Q crowd = moneyed people who either know photography well and want a toy, or wealthy folks who don't know photography but want killer images... but a proper Leica M is terrifyingly complicated to them. (The second group is effectively buying a $3k FF point and shoot at that point.)

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

the sigma has to be the worst example.

take a rebel body. it will be around the same form factor.

Well, they could be complete hacks and just pull the mirror from a 5D4 and say 'but the current ergonomics are so great'. In effect, if you are bolting a 70-200 f/2.8L IS II on this thing -- which people will 100% do on day one -- you'd actually want a stout body with a chunky grip.

But I think the identity of mirrorless is 'smaller' even if FF sensors mean huge lenses. I think they have to try to put a 5D on a diet and accentuate the lack of a mirror in the body design... even if it has the full EF mount. No idea how they will pull that off.

- A

except the reason the 5D is so large (and the 6D) is the ergonomics, and the top panel LCD and buttons.

it's not because of the EF mount.

you get rid of the top panel LCD and the haptic control buttons, and you're down to a rebel sized body.

 

[ahsanford]

except the reason the 5D is so large (and the 6D) is the ergonomics, and the top panel LCD and buttons.

it's not because of the EF mount.

you get rid of the top panel LCD and the haptic control buttons, and you're down to a rebel sized body.

But they need the battery and the built-in grip to be large. Mirrorless rigs chew through batteries, and a full EF mount means that current FF owners will be putting their big f/1.4 primes and f/2.8 zooms on this thing -- so it needs a big grip!

- A

 

[Antono Refa]

Taking the mirror out of the equation, EF and EF-S are the same (same flange distance & radius, and same electronics), except EF-S are made for smaller sensors.

So how is an EF-S mount an option?

Do all EF-S lenses have an image circle that covers a FF sensor, and Canon will make some trick to prevent EF lenses from being mounted on mirrorless FF bodies?


I see two options:

1) An EF mount, same as the 5D & 1D have, possibly with a crop mode to allow for crop lenses, same as Nikon does.

2) An EF-M mount with an extension tube for EF lenses, and a crop mode etc.

I don't see the advantages of option #2 over buying a crop body to begin with.

 

[MintChocs]

Let's see, cripple the features that might impede sales of other lines, no small form factor lenses, sensor tech still lagging, huge price (everything new comes with that) but as it has the Canon logo it will sell in bucket loads

 

[rrcphoto]

except the reason the 5D is so large (and the 6D) is the ergonomics, and the top panel LCD and buttons.

it's not because of the EF mount.

you get rid of the top panel LCD and the haptic control buttons, and you're down to a rebel sized body.

But they need the battery and the built-in grip to be large. Mirrorless rigs chew through batteries, and a full EF mount means that current FF owners will be putting their big f/1.4 primes and f/2.8 zooms on this thing -- so it needs a big grip!

- A

none of which changes the size aspect as much as the ergonomics.

 

[hmatthes]

The quality of glass and sensor are the important factors. In my addled brain, the camera itself is an accessory to the glass IF it has the proper sensor.
I shoot manually often. My Leica Q ruined me for other interfaces. I like aperture control on lenses, even when they have an "A" indent. I like a dial for shutter speed. I like manual focus (why I sold my EFs lenses). I love my Q and wish that Leica would build a new "M" with the spectacular EVF found on the Q and SL.
That said, Canon knows engineering very well. The FF mirrorless could very well have the EFm mount for cropped work and the EF adapter for all of my FF glass. And perhaps a Leica mount for using other extraordinary lenses.

 

[pokerz]

lets wait 400 more days
A 5 axis electronic IS FF mirrorless may come true ;D

 

[bluenoser1993]

This isn't based on any research, or understanding of mine. Is it technically possible to move an EF lens closer to the sensor by utilizing the recently rumoured curved sensor development and placing a lens in the body between the mount and the sensor? Just a thought that came to mind.

 

[j-nord]

Is the 5DSR II and FF mirrorless be one in the same? Or do we think this body will come in under the 6DII (since the 6DII is 'moving up market')

 

[Mistral75]

CR: "There will not be a 4th mount (EF, EF-S, EF-M) added to the Canon ILC lineup"
= the statement heard round the CR Forum world. That's a massive statement. We've been speculating about this for a very long time!

So, if true, that would mean that...

(...)

I wonder if Nikon will make the same (no new mount for FF mirrorless) decision or if they will try to keep it small when they make a foray into this market.

- A

No fourth mount means that the future Canon 24x36 mirrorless camera will adopt either the EF or the EF-M mount.

EF mount:

Pros:
- Existing lens line-up of EF lenses directly useable.

Cons:
- Lack of compactness due to the 44mm flange-to-sensor distance; either thick body à la Pentax K-01 or 'long-nosed body' à la Sigma SD Quattro.

EF-M mount:

Pros:
- Compact body (short register)

Cons:
- Need of a new line-up of dedicated lenses
- Adapter needed to use the EF and EF-S lenses
- Design of 24x36 lenses complicated by the reduced throat diameter (cf. Sony FE).

The terms of the equation are a bit different for Nikon since they can build a new mount from scratch, with a short register and a wider throat diameter à la Leica L mount (Leica T and SL).

 

[rrcphoto]

Is the 5DSR II and FF mirrorless be one in the same? Or do we think this body will come in under the 6DII (since the 6DII is 'moving up market')

i wouldn't be surprised to see it be a full frame "rebel" camera.

performance expectations are less, canon can make the full frame camera smaller and cheaper than the current rebels with an EVF instead of penta mirror / AF sensor.

and around the same size as an A7II .. so people really cant complain about the size or weight of it.