Canon Full Frame Mirrorless is Definitely Coming, and The Wait Won't Be as Long as We Thought

[PureClassA]

Coming in late to this game folks, but exciting news to be sure. Canon has barely scratched the surface with EF-M glass for the crop bodies, so I'm really 50/50 on whether we see a whole new glass line for a FF MILC.

People use these for smaller size so from that end, it makes more sense to dedicate a new lens line for it, but at the same time, Canon's biggest selling point to move this new MILC would be inherent compatibility with the already existing and best lens line-up produced.

I have the EOS M and I have the EF adapter. It does make it pretty clunky with most lenses. I'd have to imagine having a FF MILC body engineered from scratch to accommodate the EF mount natively would be notably less so. I'd like to see a decent sized FF MILC body closer to a 5 body than the current M bodies. I'd also have to think Canon would be more inclined to make this a video friendly body. Maybe not 60fps 4k, but certainly 30fps 4k by that point.

Rest of the specs akin to the 6D2 perhaps? Or maybe a new sensor altogether?

 

[PureClassA]

If it could have a good focus system and 12 FPS I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I keep seeing (here above) plus others hoping for / presuming FF mirrorless will have higher fps than SLR. I get that -- the mirrorbox isn't rate limiting anymore. But is there any chance that the AF might be? Are we confident that DPAF can process all that input with AF in each frame, or will Canon pull some A7 I and II nonsense with locked AF after the first frame?

- A

Let's consider the data flow of the 1DX2. I shoot 4k on it at 60fps. That's 8.8Mpix in MJPG format which generate HUGE files. That's with the mirror up (obviously) DPAF running and auto focusing WHILE shooting video. If we multiply the 8.8Mpix and divide the frame rate of 60 by a factor of 2.7 times, we can roughly extrapolate that a 24MPix sensor readout could produce 22fps in JPG. Let's just say 20fps to round down.

Now granted we're talking about a 1DX2 with multiple processors, but let's assume a single Digic 8 could still handle 12-15fps?

We have better tech minded people here than me, so feel free any of you to weigh in if I'm off base on this.

 

[Deleted member 379512]

Coming in late to this game folks, but exciting news to be sure. Canon has barely scratched the surface with EF-M glass for the crop bodies, so I'm really 50/50 on whether we see a whole new glass line for a FF MILC.

People use these for smaller size so from that end, it makes more sense to dedicate a new lens line for it, but at the same time, Canon's biggest selling point to move this new MILC would be inherent compatibility with the already existing and best lens line-up produced.

I have the EOS M and I have the EF adapter. It does make it pretty clunky with most lenses. I'd have to imagine having a FF MILC body engineered from scratch to accommodate the EF mount natively would be notably less so. I'd like to see a decent sized FF MILC body closer to a 5 body than the current M bodies. I'd also have to think Canon would be more inclined to make this a video friendly body. Maybe not 60fps 4k, but certainly 30fps 4k by that point.

Rest of the specs akin to the 6D2 perhaps? Or maybe a new sensor altogether?

Making it a hybrid stills/video camera makes the most sense for a mirrorless, due to the nature of an evf etc, so I really hope Canon come to the party on the video features. The M50 looks like they're at least looking in the right direction.

As for the placement, I think that using the 6d sensor would be dropping the ball immensely - I can't see by sensible reason to use a sensor they know is not their best. It wouldn't be giving the system a fair go.

 

[Don Haines]

When I consider all the latest FF EF lens releases by Canon (TS-E, 85 1.4, the upcoming 70-200 f/4 etc) I just don't see the EF mount being replaced completely or being reduced to a more or less 'use a bad adapter for them'-alternative.

Either EF mount or a really well thought-through adapter solution for EF lenses it will be.
My two cents ^^

The patent for a EF / EF-s adapter to a new lens mount for mirrorless was discussed on Canon Rumors almost 3 years ago, so Canon has had a plan for a long time, the question is if they will actually come out with the new lens mount.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26883.15

"A patent showing an EF/EF-S adaptor for a full frame mirrorless from Canon has appeared. There is a switch on the adaptor to go between EF and EF-S lenses. Patent Publication No. 2015-118208 (Google Translated)

• Published 2015.6.25
• Filing date 2013.12.18

Canon patents

• Flange back is shorter body
• Flange back is long, a lens having the same image circle as the image pickup device body
• Flange back is long, a lens with a smaller image circle than the image pickup device body
• Mount adapter to change the diameter of the flare cut stop, depending on the image circle of mounting the lens"

This still proves nothing.... for all we know, Canon could be planning a FF mirrorless with a shallow flange, and also a FF mirrorless with the EF mount.

Or... they could be planning something completely different and the patent relates to one of their test designs, which may or may not ever see the light of day, kind of like the 200Mpixel APS-H sensor....

All is speculation until the official announcement(s)

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

When I consider all the latest FF EF lens releases by Canon (TS-E, 85 1.4, the upcoming 70-200 f/4 etc) I just don't see the EF mount being replaced completely or being reduced to a more or less 'use a bad adapter for them'-alternative.

Either EF mount or a really well thought-through adapter solution for EF lenses it will be.
My two cents ^^

The patent for a EF / EF-s adapter to a new lens mount for mirrorless was discussed on Canon Rumors almost 3 years ago, so Canon has had a plan for a long time, the question is if they will actually come out with the new lens mount.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26883.15

"A patent showing an EF/EF-S adaptor for a full frame mirrorless from Canon has appeared. There is a switch on the adaptor to go between EF and EF-S lenses. Patent Publication No. 2015-118208 (Google Translated)

• Published 2015.6.25
• Filing date 2013.12.18

Canon patents

• Flange back is shorter body
• Flange back is long, a lens having the same image circle as the image pickup device body
• Flange back is long, a lens with a smaller image circle than the image pickup device body
• Mount adapter to change the diameter of the flare cut stop, depending on the image circle of mounting the lens"

This still proves nothing.... for all we know, Canon could be planning a FF mirrorless with a shallow flange, and also a FF mirrorless with the EF mount.

Or... they could be planning something completely different and the patent relates to one of their test designs, which may or may not ever see the light of day, kind of like the 200Mpixel APS-H sensor....

All is speculation until the official announcement(s)

What it proves is that they have invested time and money to develop a adapter and have designed a new lens mount. It does not imply that it will happen, but they have definitely thought it out.

 

[tmroper]

have you tried using an a7-series body with a 24-70/2.8GM or 70-200/2.8GM? I have, and I can confidently state that the ergonomics of my 1D X with the corresponding f/2.8L zooms is better. Much better.

I have tried the A7S MkII with 24-70 f/4 OSS. Ergonomics is really really awful.

Sorry, Neuro, I blew past that question. Yes on an A7R2 when I visited B&H a few years back, but no on big glass. But even the f/4 zoom I think was bolted on there was enough to tell me what a hot mess big/fast glass would be on that body. My hands -- which are not big -- were cramped and immediately reminded me of the 'iron claw' grip I always had to use when I bolted my EF 24-70 f/2.8L I on my old T1i. In short, it sucked.

Some of Sony's body design decisions could be rationalized, I guess.

Cramped/limited controls are a value proposition you opt into, it says 'To keep things small, this is the cost'. Tiny buttons and menu-drilling-down it is. Fair trade.

But an undersized grip too close to a mount intended for big/heavy glass is more of a prison sentence, it says 'My hands hurt without end, and that reality is all my fault'. No logic that it fits in a tinier bag will make your hands feel better.

- A

Sony technology still doesn't even include a fully-functional touch screen. I mean, even the 5D Mark IV has that, and it's an old-fashioned DSLR. I do think mirrorless will own the future, but the race has just begun, and no one's ahead or behind at this point. Although if I had to pick a front-runner, it would be Panasonic.

 

[slclick]

And for heavens sake, let me keep my mechanical USM focus rings, please please please.

+1. I'm bracing for a spate of focus by wire lenses to accompany this launch. :-[

Perhaps adapted-in-crop crowd can shed some light on this. Can anyone tell me if their adapted Ring USM glass on EF-M worked all right? Was it slower to confirm, less accurate, less consistent, etc? Did the FTM mechanical override still work well on the adaptor, or did the AF kick back in and try to re-lock when you used it?

I'm not saying I'll never use a focus by wire lens (after all, my new 50 prime may very well be Nano USM), but if I can adapt a Ring USM lens that does the same job, I always will.

- A

My L lenses work just fine on my M5. Not as snappy as the STM glass but accurate and decently fast.

 

[ahsanford]

My L lenses work just fine on my M5. Not as snappy as the STM glass but accurate and decently fast.

Your USM lenses on the adaptor are slower than STM on the native EF-M mount?!

Unless you are shooting some famously slow USM L lenses, like the 85 f/1.2L II or the 180L Macro, I would call that a blistering indictment for adapting lenses. I say that because modern/contemporary USM should mop the floor with STM in virtually any comparison w.r.t. stills focusing speed.

Other folks who adapt on EF-M today -- have you had the same experience?

- A

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

 

[Talys]

I have the EOS M and I have the EF adapter. It does make it pretty clunky with most lenses. I'd have to imagine having a FF MILC body engineered from scratch to accommodate the EF mount natively would be notably less so.

The problem is, there's absolutely no evidence that indicates this. I acknowledge, we have a sample size of 1 (Sony), but it's not like there will be all that many more FF mirrorless systems when we're done. With Sony, all the newly engineered lenses are mostly bigger than Canon glass of the same type when you look at lenses specifically designed for full frame, professional users / performance enthusiasts mind.

With a few exceptions, the small lenses that are FE mount are essentially cheap lenses with variable apertures. Your most popular zooms for performance cameras like 16-35, 24-70, 70-200, and 100-200 are all in the size range of Canon/Nikon full frame glass, plus a small tapering mount that connects the 60-80mm front portion to the smaller throat.

Are there exceptions? Yes, of course, notably 50mm and 85mm, especially 85/1.8 (being mostly plastic and not weather sealed is certainly a factor, though). But if you look at Canon, even the old 85/1.8 is not a large lens. And the 85/1.4 on Sony is very slightly larger than Canon EF85/1.4 -- except the Canon has IS and the Sony does not.

 

[ahsanford]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

 

[Loswr]

With RRS and others supporting the new Canon EF-M cameras, the value of the tripod foot for the EF-M adapter decreases. The L-plate on the body is more versatile because you can change orientation, and you can use a tripod with any lens -- not just adapted lenses.

Supporting the M5, from what I've seen. I haven't found a L-plate for my M6 so far, not even a base plate (Hejnar has one that almost fits, but doesn't sit quite flush on the camera bottom due to one of the small, round nubs on the camera (it has four 'feet'). Currently, I have a little Hejnar generic 0.8" plate that works ok, but I'd prefer the dovetails to be lateral rather than axial, and what I'd really like is a proper L-plate (and even better, a modular one like the RRS 1D X plate).

I'm sure RRS will do an L-plate for a Canon FF MILC.

 

[Talys]

I'm sure RRS will do an L-plate for a Canon FF MILC.

I'm sure they will too -- since they'll probably charge $200 for it and people will still eagerly snap it up

 

[Loswr]

I'm sure RRS will do an L-plate for a Canon FF MILC.

I'm sure they will too -- since they'll probably charge $200 for it and people will still eagerly snap it up

The $250 I paid for my 1D X L-plate was money very well spent. I particularly like that the hex tool stores in the plate, comes in handy not just for removing the upright part of the bracket, but for tightening lens plates, etc. It even saved the guy at the counter at Canon's New Jersey repair center from a trip to the back when another customer needed to remove his camera plate, when I had brought my 1D X in for the recall service.

 

[Don Haines]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

That's my expectation too.....

 

[privatebydesign]

I'm sure RRS will do an L-plate for a Canon FF MILC.

I'm sure they will too -- since they'll probably charge $200 for it and people will still eagerly snap it up

The $250 I paid for my 1D X L-plate was money very well spent. I particularly like that the hex tool stores in the plate, comes in handy not just for removing the upright part of the bracket, but for tightening lens plates, etc. It even saved the guy at the counter at Canon's New Jersey repair center from a trip to the back when another customer needed to remove his camera plate, when I had brought my 1D X in for the recall service.

I like mine too but they cheaped out for the 1DX MkII owners, they should have done away with the hump for the cable release as the MkII isn’t where the MkI’s is, meanwhile they did change the base to accept their stupid sling strap!

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

I disagree. The fact that Canon EoL (and CPS members) were surveyed about mirrorless and are now field testing, along with the report that Canon "wants to get it right," indicates a professional body. It would otherwise be an unusual interest in what professionals want for an enthusiast product. Canon also has a strong history of releasing professional bodies first and then trickling/watering down those features into more affordable options:

1D then 5D
5D then 6D
C300 then C100
etc.

Furthermore, I think Canon feels the heat on the FF mirrorless front. Sony went from having one professional FF mirrorless with the a9 to having two after the third iteration of the a7 line. If I were Canon I'd feel the need to compete with at least one of these with my first entry into this segment. A mirrorless 6d Mk II won't. Canon needs to flex some muscle and renew excitement among their user base. A prosumer offering won't.

TL;DR: Canon will announce the 5D V, their first full-frame mirrorless camera in Q1 2019 with availability summer 2019 You heard it here first.

 

[Deleted member 379512]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

I disagree. The fact that Canon EoL (and CPS members) were surveyed about mirrorless and are now field testing, along with the report that Canon "wants to get it right," indicates a professional body. It would otherwise be an unusual interest in what professionals want for an enthusiast product. Canon also has a strong history of releasing professional bodies first and then trickling/watering down those features into more affordable options:

1D then 5D
5D then 6D
C300 then C100
etc.

Furthermore, I think Canon feels the heat on the FF mirrorless front. Sony went from having one professional FF mirrorless with the a9 to having two after the third iteration of the a7 line. If I were Canon I'd feel the need to compete with at least one of these with my first entry into this segment. A mirrorless 6d Mk II won't. Canon needs to flex some muscle and renew excitement among their user base. A prosumer offering won't.

TL;DR: Canon will announce the 5D V, their first full-frame mirrorless camera in Q1 2019 with availability summer 2019 You heard it here first.

I'm curious to see if they run a dual release, a mirrorless version and a mirrored version of the next 5d, biggest difference would be the evf vs ovf. Most of the other features could be matched, and that'd keep a foot on each side if the line

 

[Talys]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

I disagree. The fact that Canon EoL (and CPS members) were surveyed about mirrorless and are now field testing, along with the report that Canon "wants to get it right," indicates a professional body. It would otherwise be an unusual interest in what professionals want for an enthusiast product. Canon also has a strong history of releasing professional bodies first and then trickling/watering down those features into more affordable options:

1D then 5D
5D then 6D
C300 then C100
etc.

Furthermore, I think Canon feels the heat on the FF mirrorless front. Sony went from having one professional FF mirrorless with the a9 to having two after the third iteration of the a7 line. If I were Canon I'd feel the need to compete with at least one of these with my first entry into this segment. A mirrorless 6d Mk II won't. Canon needs to flex some muscle and renew excitement among their user base. A prosumer offering won't.

TL;DR: Canon will announce the 5D V, their first full-frame mirrorless camera in Q1 2019 with availability summer 2019 You heard it here first.

I'm with ahsanford on this one.

I think that the long term goal (Tokyo 2020) is to have a professional (1D) product, and therefore, professionals and EoL are important to set Canon on the right path.

But the 2019 goal will be something closer to a enthusiast / portable professional, 5D price point product.

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

It needs to be a professional body (5D equivalent ruggedness and features) and it needs to be EF mount. End of story. I could see it being a flagship 1D mirrorless, but that'll put it out of reach for most Canon users. Lower than where the 5D is and 1. current Canon professionals won't leave their 5D for it and 2. it won't be competitive with Sony.

Who said anything about pleasing professionals with this first offering? I see a next-to-zero chance of that.

I think the first FF offering will be a pricey toy for enthusiasts and affluent folks with disposable income -- a 6D2 feature set with an EVF (and possibly a better sensor). But as much as I want a mirrorless 5D, I'd be stunned if we got that right out of the gate.

- A

I disagree. The fact that Canon EoL (and CPS members) were surveyed about mirrorless and are now field testing, along with the report that Canon "wants to get it right," indicates a professional body. It would otherwise be an unusual interest in what professionals want for an enthusiast product. Canon also has a strong history of releasing professional bodies first and then trickling/watering down those features into more affordable options:

1D then 5D
5D then 6D
C300 then C100
etc.

Furthermore, I think Canon feels the heat on the FF mirrorless front. Sony went from having one professional FF mirrorless with the a9 to having two after the third iteration of the a7 line. If I were Canon I'd feel the need to compete with at least one of these with my first entry into this segment. A mirrorless 6d Mk II won't. Canon needs to flex some muscle and renew excitement among their user base. A prosumer offering won't.

TL;DR: Canon will announce the 5D V, their first full-frame mirrorless camera in Q1 2019 with availability summer 2019 You heard it here first.

I'm curious to see if they run a dual release, a mirrorless version and a mirrored version of the next 5d, biggest difference would be the evf vs ovf. Most of the other features could be matched, and that'd keep a foot on each side if the line

I'm sure Canon execs have stayed up late at night trying to figure out whether to jump into mirrorless with one, or two feet. I love my OVF, but it's undeniable that mirrorless is the future. A dual release would be a good way to test what the market truly wants, but not sure how viable that really is. Although I will say I personally don't want a mirrorless body any smaller than the current 5D, so if they just remove the mirrorbox to squeeze in an EVF, leaving everything else the same, it would be perfect for me.