Canon Introduces the EOS M5 Digital Camera and its First EF-M High Power Zoom Lens

Tugela

EOS R
Feb 12, 2014
873
23
merefield said:
Tugela said:
You are the one who is wrong. The Digic 7 can do 4K, but it is the camera that can't cope with the heat. <SNIP>

If they put a fan in the M5 it would have been able to shoot 4K using hardware encoding.

What's the point of such a feature on a chip if it runs too hot to deliver 4k? And I hope you were joking about a fan! :)

I appreciate Canon not giving us features just to fill out spec sheets which don't work in the wild, like Sony, though.

Seems we'll need to wait for them to shrink the electronics down so they create less heat before minimally cropped 4k becomes a reality.

Because they use the same chip design for a particular family of chips, but with different parts enabled or disabled. The Digic 7 is the same generation as the Digic DV5, so the hardware encoders included in the chips are the same. They likely intended the cameras using this generation to be able to shoot 4K, just like Sony and Panasonic analogs, but when the chip was actually built it turned out to run too hot. There is not a lot that can be done at that point, other than make cameras that simply don't use that feature of the chip. The DV5 variants included in the EOS-C cameras have fans to cool them, but that is not feasible on regular cameras.

So while the capability to shoot 4K is there, it isn't used because of the thermal envelope constraints.

Their original intent was probably to have Digic 7 chips shooting 4K on all enthusiast cameras in 2015, but after it was made the chip just couldn't handle it. So it stalled their plans to catch up to Sony and Panasonic.

The thermal envelope problem is not going to be resolved for the Digic 7 generation however. They might get a more power efficient version with Digic 8, so until that comes out, hardware encoding probably is not going t happen on Canon stills cameras.

The whole processor thing is what is holding Canon back. I am sure that it is exceedingly frustrating for their managers and engineers, because they would love to take it to Sony/Panasonic, but just can't. There is a gap opening, and until the processor situation is resolved they are hobbled in their efforts to prevent it from continuing to grow.

If I was to make a guess, that is the reason why DPAF is being thrown into everything. They have to do something to give them some sort of competitive edge, and they are banking on PDAF being enough of a stopgap to buy them some more time.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
CR Pro
Nov 7, 2013
3,576
2,601
Germany
Finally I found out what was annoing me with this camera:
The release button.

Canon was almost always delivering a even release button with EOS DSLRs.
That changed with EOS M bodies and they now have that kind of grooved ring around the release button.
I was expecting this to change back to the even button with that kind of cmera design.

I was always preferring that smooth even button over the ones of Nikon or else.

The rest of the camera seems to be quite interesting and I am interested to get my hands on it soon.
But the pricing will keep me from buying.
 
Sep 17, 2016
1
0
:( I had a Canon M3 and liked it. Basically has the same sensor as the 80D. Sensor has great dynamic range. 18-55 lens surprisingly good and both camera and lens were well made. Sold the camera because it lacked and EVF and had a somewhat slow autofocus. I am very excited by the new M5 body. It fixed every issue lacking in the M3 and then some. Problem is canon replaced the mostly metal 18-55 5.6 kit lens with a cheaper looking slower f4-6.3 kit lens with a plastic base. What were they thinking? It looks like has finally produced a mirror less camera as good or better than Fuji and Sony but has not given us a first class lens system to optimize the capabilities of the camera. The only really first rate lens offered for the M5 is the 11-22 wide angle lens. To make the M5 system Canon needs to come up with some moderately fast prime lenses and a faster standard zoom than a f6.3.
 

Woody

EOS R
Jul 20, 2010
1,161
87
Tugela said:
If I was to make a guess, that is the reason why DPAF is being thrown into everything. They have to do something to give them some sort of competitive edge, and they are banking on PDAF being enough of a stopgap to buy them some more time.

I will certainly pick DPAF over 4k. ;D
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,518
3,800
Tugela said:
The whole processor thing is what is holding Canon back. I am sure that it is exceedingly frustrating for their managers and engineers, because they would love to take it to Sony/Panasonic, but just can't. There is a gap opening...

Holding Canon back from what, exactly? In 2015, Canon's one line of MILCs surpassed the full Panasonic lineup of MILCs to become #3 in Japanese sales, if that's not 'taking it to Panasonic', what is? Sure there's a gap...a widening gap in MILC sales where Canon leads Panasonic, and a narrowing gap where Canon is catching up to Sony (who lost the #1 spot to Olympus last year).
 

nads

EOS M50
May 3, 2014
37
21
Tugela said:
merefield said:
Tugela said:
You are the one who is wrong. The Digic 7 can do 4K, but it is the camera that can't cope with the heat. <SNIP>

If they put a fan in the M5 it would have been able to shoot 4K using hardware encoding.

What's the point of such a feature on a chip if it runs too hot to deliver 4k? And I hope you were joking about a fan! :)

I appreciate Canon not giving us features just to fill out spec sheets which don't work in the wild, like Sony, though.

Seems we'll need to wait for them to shrink the electronics down so they create less heat before minimally cropped 4k becomes a reality.

Because they use the same chip design for a particular family of chips, but with different parts enabled or disabled. The Digic 7 is the same generation as the Digic DV5, so the hardware encoders included in the chips are the same. They likely intended the cameras using this generation to be able to shoot 4K, just like Sony and Panasonic analogs, but when the chip was actually built it turned out to run too hot. There is not a lot that can be done at that point, other than make cameras that simply don't use that feature of the chip. The DV5 variants included in the EOS-C cameras have fans to cool them, but that is not feasible on regular cameras.

So while the capability to shoot 4K is there, it isn't used because of the thermal envelope constraints.

Their original intent was probably to have Digic 7 chips shooting 4K on all enthusiast cameras in 2015, but after it was made the chip just couldn't handle it. So it stalled their plans to catch up to Sony and Panasonic.

The thermal envelope problem is not going to be resolved for the Digic 7 generation however. They might get a more power efficient version with Digic 8, so until that comes out, hardware encoding probably is not going t happen on Canon stills cameras.

The whole processor thing is what is holding Canon back. I am sure that it is exceedingly frustrating for their managers and engineers, because they would love to take it to Sony/Panasonic, but just can't. There is a gap opening, and until the processor situation is resolved they are hobbled in their efforts to prevent it from continuing to grow.

If I was to make a guess, that is the reason why DPAF is being thrown into everything. They have to do something to give them some sort of competitive edge, and they are banking on PDAF being enough of a stopgap to buy them some more time.

Oh our bad luck. We get stuck with a lowly DPAF feature (A critical path development for a Canon stills camera) but we miss out on 4K which is not critical for a stills camera.

Clearly Canon had no intention of using DPAF after developing it and sticking it in DSLR... it was a throw away one off kind of thing that they are trying to sell us on now because they couldn't get 4K to work. Got it. Makes perfect sense.

This is like complaining that my screwdriver handle can't hammer a nail as well as I want it to... They couldn't get the hammer right so they stuck on a unique metal tip that doesn't wear down. Those idiots couldn't make this screwdriver pound a nail worth a damn so now I'm stuck with a feature that is only good for the purpose the tool is designed for in the first place! Gosh, I can't believe I got this garbage feature from the best selling screwdriver company in the world!

If you want to do good 4K work, get a camera with that as its primary focus. If you're going to make money or an impact with 4K, statistically you will be doing it with that. The rest of us will tolerate a camera that only records at a level at which only 320Billion minutes per day are consumed in the United States.

Funny thing about that technology gap opening... Sony and Panasonic mirror less video equipment can't touch the purpose built video equipment that Canon is making. Obviously there is a technology gap that is becoming insuperable.

Remember when everybody said "Canon only has 3 mirror less bodies and they're all behind... they are losing out on this market and will never catch up". Conveniently they ignored (or were ignorant of) the fact that Canon and Nikon both intentionally never passed each other in every feature. Not even on their flagship bodies. They've always been willing to let the other lead in a feature or two and take the lead in others.

Canon's total technology package has been far ahead of Fuji/Sony/M43 since the mirror less platforms started. The idea that they couldn't catch up the minute they felt it make sense from a business perspective has always been ridiculous.

If you think that Canon is technology limited, you don't get it. They sell what they sell because it is a targeted market strategy intended to focus on profit and business growth. Burning through design and production launch of 30 mirror less bodies to Canon's 3 is why some don't make money when Canon does.
 

dak723

EOS R
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
435
pappajohn said:
:( I had a Canon M3 and liked it. Basically has the same sensor as the 80D. Sensor has great dynamic range. 18-55 lens surprisingly good and both camera and lens were well made. Sold the camera because it lacked and EVF and had a somewhat slow autofocus. I am very excited by the new M5 body. It fixed every issue lacking in the M3 and then some. Problem is canon replaced the mostly metal 18-55 5.6 kit lens with a cheaper looking slower f4-6.3 kit lens with a plastic base. What were they thinking? It looks like has finally produced a mirror less camera as good or better than Fuji and Sony but has not given us a first class lens system to optimize the capabilities of the camera. The only really first rate lens offered for the M5 is the 11-22 wide angle lens. To make the M5 system Canon needs to come up with some moderately fast prime lenses and a faster standard zoom than a f6.3.

While they are using a different kit lens, the 18-55mm is still available - and if you sold yours with your camera, they can be bought for around $100 on ebay. So no reason to get the kit lens that you don't like.
 

bholliman

EOS R
Dec 6, 2012
1,473
0
USA
www.flickr.com
nads said:
Oh our bad luck. We get stuck with a lowly DPAF feature (A critical path development for a Canon stills camera) but we miss out on 4K which is not critical for a stills camera.

Clearly Canon had no intention of using DPAF after developing it and sticking it in DSLR... it was a throw away one off kind of thing that they are trying to sell us on now because they couldn't get 4K to work. Got it. Makes perfect sense.

+1 well stated :)
 

crashpc

EOS RP
Jan 19, 2014
367
7
1150€ is too much for little brother of 80D I guess. That is another miss Canon. I rather buy next lens for my Nikon, and wait if you don´t miss with FF Mirrorless in next years. :)
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
neuroanatomist said:
... In 2015, Canon's one line of MILCs surpassed the full Panasonic lineup of MILCs to become #3 in Japanese sales, if that's not 'taking it to Panasonic', what is? Sure there's a gap...a widening gap in MILC sales where Canon leads Panasonic, and a narrowing gap where Canon is catching up to Sony (who lost the #1 spot to Olympus last year).

nope. http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/mirrorless-market-shares.html

Putting actual numbers on that is a bit tougher. We know that Olympus shipped 550k units in their last fiscal year (though that will slip to 460k in the current year according to their estimates). We had Sony at about 12% of the overall ILC market last year, which put their mirrorless number somewhere around 1.4m. And from Canon’s recently stated numbers, we’d have to guess that they were somewhere above 300k units for mirrorless last year, and are now growing significantly.


But the M5 is finally a good step in the right direction. Once price drops below 80D and into Rebel territory, it will sell very well. Especially, since the EF-M lens lineup is really good already [ignore the few omni-present fast prime whiners on forums] and even more importantly for the target audience: very affordable.

M5 really is almost everything I asked for. Personally I would have preferred the same functionality in a more compact, rangefinder-type package with pop-up left-top-corner EVF. Even if it would have come without that rather pointless GN 5 pop-up flash.

Or other way round: having chosen this rather bulky "Mini-DSLR" form factor, Canon really should have stuck a beefier battery [LP-E6N ?] into it. Plus an RT flash commander into the hump.
 

dak723

EOS R
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
435
Agree that M5 is a step in the right direction. A big step, in my opinion. Currently I own a 6D and an Olympus E-M1. Due to smaller size and weight, the Olympus gets used far more than the 6D. I can go with my dog to scenic spots, and carry the Oly far more easily. To me, that is the main advantage of a mirrorless camera. Now that Canon is offering an even smaller and lighter mirrorless, I may look to replace my 6D and/or my Oly with the M5. It will depend on the EVF - will it be as good as the OLY? Will it be fairly accurate in its WYSIWYG ability to judge exposure? From what I have read, the 11-22mm and the 18-55mm EF-M lenses get pretty high marks. I know many folks are whining about the prime selection, but for most folks this will be their second camera or their walk-around travel camera. For those purposes, you want zooms not primes. I think Canon understands that.
 

PHOTOPROROCKIES

EOS M50
Sep 15, 2016
44
0
dak723 said:
Agree that M5 is a step in the right direction. A big step, in my opinion. Currently I own a 6D and an Olympus E-M1. Due to smaller size and weight, the Olympus gets used far more than the 6D. I can go with my dog to scenic spots, and carry the Oly far more easily. To me, that is the main advantage of a mirrorless camera. Now that Canon is offering an even smaller and lighter mirrorless, I may look to replace my 6D and/or my Oly with the M5. It will depend on the EVF - will it be as good as the OLY? Will it be fairly accurate in its WYSIWYG ability to judge exposure? From what I have read, the 11-22mm and the 18-55mm EF-M lenses get pretty high marks. I know many folks are whining about the prime selection, but for most folks this will be their second camera or their walk-around travel camera. For those purposes, you want zooms not primes. I think Canon understands that.

Not everyone would agree, some people want to use a canon mirrorless as a street photography camera.
In my opinion looking watching Fuji and even Olympus and Panasonic, canons mirrorless cameras are laughable at best and their lens selection just isn't where it should be.
 

PHOTOPROROCKIES

EOS M50
Sep 15, 2016
44
0
AvTvM said:
neuroanatomist said:
... In 2015, Canon's one line of MILCs surpassed the full Panasonic lineup of MILCs to become #3 in Japanese sales, if that's not 'taking it to Panasonic', what is? Sure there's a gap...a widening gap in MILC sales where Canon leads Panasonic, and a narrowing gap where Canon is catching up to Sony (who lost the #1 spot to Olympus last year).

nope. http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/mirrorless-market-shares.html

Putting actual numbers on that is a bit tougher. We know that Olympus shipped 550k units in their last fiscal year (though that will slip to 460k in the current year according to their estimates). We had Sony at about 12% of the overall ILC market last year, which put their mirrorless number somewhere around 1.4m. And from Canon’s recently stated numbers, we’d have to guess that they were somewhere above 300k units for mirrorless last year, and are now growing significantly.


But the M5 is finally a good step in the right direction. Once price drops below 80D and into Rebel territory, it will sell very well. Especially, since the EF-M lens lineup is really good already [ignore the few omni-present fast prime whiners on forums] and even more importantly for the target audience: very affordable.

M5 really is almost everything I asked for. Personally I would have preferred the same functionality in a more compact, rangefinder-type package with pop-up left-top-corner EVF. Even if it would have come without that rather pointless GN 5 pop-up flash.

Or other way round: having chosen this rather bulky "Mini-DSLR" form factor, Canon really should have stuck a beefier battery [LP-E6N ?] into it. Plus an RT flash commander into the hump.

The price won't drop that much for a long while and by that point it won't be very new. I'm not saying there isn't a market for canon mirrorless cameras, they at least didn't shoot themselves in the foot like nikon did with the one series. I'm sure they'll smarten up eventually but it'll take a little while and by that time fuji is going to have a much bigger hold on the mirrorless market than they already do.
 

privatebydesign

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
10,428
5,654
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
The price won't drop that much for a long while and by that point it won't be very new. I'm not saying there isn't a market for canon mirrorless cameras, they at least didn't shoot themselves in the foot like nikon did with the one series. I'm sure they'll smarten up eventually but it'll take a little while and by that time fuji is going to have a much bigger hold on the mirrorless market than they already do.

Don't let facts get in the way of your reality.

MILC market share is close to this list, with occasional switches of a place as a new model comes out,
1/ Sony
2/ Olympus
3/ Canon
4/ Nikon
5/ Panasonic
6/ Fuji

It is widely expected that Canon will move to 2nd place this year as Olympus have had serious production issues and Canon have come out with a new model.
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
dak723 said:
... I know many folks are whining about the prime selection, but for most folks this will be their second camera or their walk-around travel camera. For those purposes, you want zooms not primes. I think Canon understands that.
... lens selection just isn't where it should be.

Interesting thing is, that all the EF-M lens lineup bitchers and whiners are always bitching totally unspecific! Never ever do they suggest specific lenses they would like to see in EF-M mount ... and lenses, that make sense! No, we do NOT need f/1.2 EF-M clunkers at 1000 a piece, only Fuji needs them, because they have nothiong else but crop lenses. On a Canon you can use any EF prime with a simple adapter, if you really have a situation that calls for a fast lens.

Only lens really missing from EF-M in my book is a short, compact, high-IQ native tele. Something like an EF-M 85/2.4 STM IS. As excellent optically as the 22/2.0 and affordably priced too. And maybe an EF-M emenation of the 50/1.8 STM. That's it , everything else is either already there or can be better covered using an EF lens.
 

PHOTOPROROCKIES

EOS M50
Sep 15, 2016
44
0
AvTvM said:
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
dak723 said:
... I know many folks are whining about the prime selection, but for most folks this will be their second camera or their walk-around travel camera. For those purposes, you want zooms not primes. I think Canon understands that.
... lens selection just isn't where it should be.

Interesting thing is, that all the EF-M lens lineup bitchers and whiners are always bitching totally unspecific! Never ever do they suggest specific lenses they would like to see in EF-M mount ... and lenses, that make sense! No, we do NOT need f/1.2 EF-M clunkers at 1000 a piece, only Fuji needs them, because they have nothiong else but crop lenses. On a Canon you can use any EF prime with a simple adapter, if you really have a situation that calls for a fast lens.

Only lens really missing from EF-M in my book is a short, compact, high-IQ native tele. Something like an EF-M 85/2.4 STM IS. As excellent optically as the 22/2.0 and affordably priced too. And maybe an EF-M emenation of the 50/1.8 STM. That's it , everything else is either already there or can be better covered using an EF lens.

The quality you would get from a fuji camera with one of their primes is much better quality than you get with any canopn mirrorless or apsc with the EF lens. I'm not saying fuji is the greatest/end all be all. They aren't, no camera is, each one has things its best at and a demographic they are best for. As it stands canon isn't doing much for the professional with the mirrorless line. Fuji is a professional mirrorless option with amazing detail, wicked sharpness, and really nice colour tones. BUT canon DSLR's wont be ebat by a mirrorless camera for awhile.
Sure the Sony A7Rii and A7Sii are amazing cameras and outperform Canon and Nikon in certain aspects EXCEPT size, once you throw the FF lenses from Sony on there you might as well be carrying your CAnon or Nikon FF cameras and lenses.
 

Busted Knuckles

Enjoy this breath and the next
Oct 2, 2013
221
1
This really isn't a pro camera - though I see some pros using 50/60/70D cameras fairly frequently (I have seen a multi camera set up using T3i for video??)

Take the guts out of this, put a FF sensor on it (same resolution) and drop it into a 6d body...

(I would love it to have a flippy screen)

9 fps w/ focus peaking, I would manual focus for the higher fps.

No view finder blackout when burst shooting.

The quite shutter. I think it would be a wedding photogs dream.
 

AvTvM

EOS R6
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
The quality you would get from a fuji camera with one of their primes is much better quality than you get with any canopn mirrorless or apsc with the EF lens.

urban myth. ;D
Some of those Fuji X-lenses are very good. Not all of them. But all of them are crop lenses and nearly as big, heavy and expensive as good FF lenses.

EF-M 22/2.0 easily matches any Fuji X-lens in sharpness and IQ.
EF-M 11-22 fully matches Fuji 10-24 - except max. aperture - at a fraction of size, weight and cost.
EF-M 55-200 beats both Fuji X- telezooms, 50-230 and 50-200.
even EF-M 18-55 kit zoom fully matches optical performance of Fuji 18-55/2.8-4.0 (except in aperture).

A decent Canon EF-M lens set costs and weighs not even half of what those Fuji retro clunkers cost. Now with M5 Canon has a reasonable camera body too and will start to shred Fuji as far as mirrorless APS-C goes.

Only Fuji XF lens I'd like to see an equivalent in the Canon EF-M lineup is that little 35/2.0 (NOT the 35/1.4 clunker). it's a sharp little beast, similar to Canon 22/2.0. :)
 

PHOTOPROROCKIES

EOS M50
Sep 15, 2016
44
0
AvTvM said:
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
The quality you would get from a fuji camera with one of their primes is much better quality than you get with any canopn mirrorless or apsc with the EF lens.

urban myth. ;D
Some of those Fuji X-lenses are very good. Not all of them. But all of them are crop lenses and nearly as big, heavy and expensive as good FF lenses.

EF-M 22/2.0 easily matches any Fuji X-lens in sharpness and IQ.
EF-M 11-22 fully matches Fuji 10-24 - except max. aperture - at a fraction of size, weight and cost.
EF-M 55-200 beats both Fuji X- telezooms, 50-230 and 50-200.
even EF-M 18-55 kit zoom fully matches optical performance of Fuji 18-55/2.8-4.0 (except in aperture).

A decent Canon EF-M lens set costs and weighs not even half of what those Fuji retro clunkers cost. Now with M5 Canon has a reasonable camera body too and will start to shred Fuji as far as mirrorless APS-C goes.

Only Fuji XF lens I'd like to see an equivalent in the Canon EF-M lineup is that little 35/2.0 (NOT the 35/1.4 clunker). it's a sharp little beast, similar to Canon 22/2.0. :)

Definitely not as expensive, if more of the canons had no low pass filter I'd slightly agree.
Canon mirrorless APS-C with those lenses won't Shred fuji, might match it slightly in performance but won't shred them. I play with all other them daily and the Canon Mirrorless can not currently touch fuji.
If canon Mirrorless had no low pass filter then maybe it would be closer.
At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what camera you have in your hand as long as you know how to use it.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
AvTvM said:
PHOTOPROROCKIES said:
dak723 said:
... I know many folks are whining about the prime selection, but for most folks this will be their second camera or their walk-around travel camera. For those purposes, you want zooms not primes. I think Canon understands that.
... lens selection just isn't where it should be.

Interesting thing is, that all the EF-M lens lineup bitchers and whiners are always bitching totally unspecific! Never ever do they suggest specific lenses they would like to see in EF-M mount ... and lenses, that make sense! No, we do NOT need f/1.2 EF-M clunkers at 1000 a piece, only Fuji needs them, because they have nothiong else but crop lenses. On a Canon you can use any EF prime with a simple adapter, if you really have a situation that calls for a fast lens.

Only lens really missing from EF-M in my book is a short, compact, high-IQ native tele. Something like an EF-M 85/2.4 STM IS. As excellent optically as the 22/2.0 and affordably priced too. And maybe an EF-M emenation of the 50/1.8 STM. That's it , everything else is either already there or can be better covered using an EF lens.
I would like to see EF-M 85mm prime as well. I find it pretty nice FL for using it during indoor kid activities. I can live with it EF 85mm lens which are pretty cheap in used condition. I have to get adapter. Canon stressed a lot about designing top and bottom plate on M5 to match fit and finish on the EF-M lens. So, they are putting importance in aesthetics/look. May be to attract phone crowds who are looking for dedicated camera. We might not see too many of EFM lens. Hopefully one or two primes and Sigma to come up with one of their 17-50/70mm f2.8/f4 zoom. Sigma likes this zoom range.