Canon lack of innovation

[JohnDizzo15]

Show me a major corporation that actually does any of that with regard to their customers. Solvent companies only, please - bankrupt companies need not be listed.

CNH Industrial ... I can still buy brand new official factory-made parts for my 50-year old FIAT tractor. Why? Because no farmer will buy a tractor that the manufacturer stops supporting once a new model is released.

But it doesn't stop there. The fun continues! CASE amalgamated with New Holland, which was itself the amalgamation of the tractor divisions of Ford and FIAT, to form CNH; and CNH is still supporting all of these ancient tractors that a major part of the company never even manufactured!

Kaizen ... Gumpf! We've been doing it for years and years.

This should also explain why, to us inhabitants of the rural nowhere, why the business practices of a company like [...] seems so ... so foreign ... especially in that the release of a new product automatically ends the support of the replaced product.

Again, small world + small view. This has zero bearing or parallel to a company like Canon. By your line of reasoning, Canon should still be finding ways to improve your experience on their film cameras.

 

[Sella174]

Again, small world + small view.

Derision.

This has zero bearing or parallel to a company like Canon.

Apples and oranges, right?

By your line of reasoning, Canon should still be finding ways to improve your experience on their film cameras.

And why not?

Anyway, so you've latched onto me, have you? Well, that means that I'm saying things that someone doesn't want said. Good.

 

[mackguyver]

Always interesting to see a thread unravel. I think someone needs to bring up the Wealth of Nations or the Communist Manifesto to continue the conversation .

Positive Capitalist spin: competition leads to innovation, innovation leads to sales/profit
Positive Marxist spin: to use a quote attributed to Josef Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own"

I'm just having good fun here and trying to balance both views

My opinion is that Canon's patents are a good thing and while many of them may be solely filed for protectionist reasons, some (Dual-pixel AF, 1DX/5DIII AF, etc.) are truly innovative and important to us as photographers.

 

[Loswr]

CNH Industrial ... I can still buy brand new official factory-made parts for my 50-year old FIAT tractor. Why? Because no farmer will buy a tractor that the manufacturer stops supporting once a new model is released.

What makes you think they are supporting old products because of 'compassion and understanding'? Do they give the way those factory made parts for old tractors for free to customers who need them but can't afford them? Sell them to you at a loss? Come to your house and install them for free with a basket of cookies, just to say hello to their customers? :

Or could it be that they found a niche market and are exploiting it...for profit?

Your analogy of Canon not releasing firmware updates for discontinued products is not an apt one (nor is it a true one, as my T1i had a firmware update issued after it was discontinued once it's successor was released). Well, I suppose it is an apt analogy if your favorite tractor company is, in fact, giving away those old parts for free like Canon does with their firmware updates.

 

[JohnDizzo15]

Again, small world + small view.

Derision.

This has zero bearing or parallel to a company like Canon.

Apples and oranges, right?

By your line of reasoning, Canon should still be finding ways to improve your experience on their film cameras.

And why not?

Anyway, so you've latched onto me, have you? Well, that means that I'm saying things that someone doesn't want said. Good.

Doesn't matter to me whether you say whatever it is you say. What does matter to me is that you know that some of those things are absurd. Your analogy, absurd.

And I haven't latched onto you. We merely find interest in similar threads and again, I like to point out when people say absurd things.

 

[Sella174]

What makes you think they are supporting old products because of 'compassion and understanding'?

You've never farmed for a living, whether for profit or just simply to stay alive, have you?

Or could it be that they found a niche market and are exploiting it...for profit?

I guess you could call farmers a niche market, just like you can call photographers a niche market.

Well, I suppose it is an apt analogy if your favorite tractor company is, in fact, giving away those old parts for free like Canon does with their firmware updates.

The point is that a company like CNH sells, for example, tractors with the undertaking that they will continue to support their products decades into the future. This creates confidence in the company. This also, paradoxically, makes it quite acceptable for them to charge a bit extra for their products.

In comparison, my EF 28-70mm f/2.8 L USM lens is no longer supported by Canon (it doesn't appear on the CPS list of qualifying lenses anymore and the local Canon repair agent won't touch it), and yet this was a staple lens in most professionals' gear list. BTW, my copy was made in March 2002 (UQ0311), so it's just about twelve years old. Pretty shabby commitment to professional grade equipment, in my opinion.

 

[Sella174]

Doesn't matter to me whether you say whatever it is you say. What does matter to me is that you know that some of those things are absurd. Your analogy, absurd.

... I like to point out when people say absurd things.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. - Arthur Scopenhauer (1788-1860).

But you're lagging behind. Almost everybody else is at stage two.

 

[David Hull]

I keep reading on hear about Canon's lack of innovation. Apparently not everyone agrees, as they landed at #3 in this article on "The world's most innovative companies":

http://money.msn.com/inside-the-ticker/the-worlds-5-most-innovative-companies

If you received a $2000 bonus every time you successfully filed a patent for your company (e.g. Canon), would that be sufficient motivation to encourage you to create as many patents as possible? And if you were so motivated, what would your outlook on other companies that also register lots of patents be?

You DO understand why companies do this, right? It is not so they list higher on some arbitrary magazine or web sites "innovation" ranking.

At one time I worked for Rockwell Semiconductor when Lucent came knocking on the door and said, "Hey guys, we are Lucent... you know the old Bell Telephone Laboratories" "well we have a boat load of patents and we're pretty sure you are in violation of quite a few of them so why don't you consider taking out a blanket license, as in, you hand us a bag of money each year and we agree not to bother looking" "otherwise we are about to start."

Sadly, THAT is what patents are for in the modern age and that is why companies encourage people to file.

 

[Loswr]

What makes you think they are supporting old products because of 'compassion and understanding'?

You've never farmed for a living, whether for profit or just simply to stay alive, have you?

Interesting… So the people building these "factory made parts" for 50-year-old tractors are also farmers themselves? I does that business model work?

Or could it be that they found a niche market and are exploiting it...for profit?

I guess you could call farmers a niche market, just like you can call photographers a niche market.

Not farmers...farmers who need factory made parts for 50-year-old tractors. It's nice that you can get them, and too bad you can't get parts for your 12-year-old camera lens, but neither 50-year-old tractors nor 12-year-old lenses are what I would consider mainstream in today's market.

 

[Don Haines]

What makes you think they are supporting old products because of 'compassion and understanding'?

You've never farmed for a living, whether for profit or just simply to stay alive, have you?

Interesting… So the people building these "factory made parts" for 50-year-old tractors are also farmers themselves? I does that business model work?

Or could it be that they found a niche market and are exploiting it...for profit?

I guess you could call farmers a niche market, just like you can call photographers a niche market.

Not farmers...farmers who need factory made parts for 50-year-old tractors. It's nice that you can get them, and too bad you can't get parts for your 12-year-old camera lens, but neither 50-year-old tractors nor 12-year-old lenses are what I would consider mainstream in today's market.

If you are looking for parts for a 50 year old tractor, take the broken part and go visit a machinist.... good luck with lens components....

 

[BLFPhoto]

Around here "innovation" seems to be equated with giving every Tom, Dick and Harriet what they want when they want it. The plebeian derision heaped upon our dear Canon when perceived to be "not keeping up with the Nikonses" is laughable at best.

 

[Valvebounce]

Hi Folks.
From time to time I sub my engineering skills to a refrigeration engineering company, being in a rural community some of their main customers are farmers. It has been my experience that a farmer will continue to polish a turd as long as you let them, once you actually explain that the new equipment they need will be more efficient, therefore cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain more reliable, etc they will buy new gear, and thank you for it later!
50 year old tractors are for people playing at farming, and tractor collectors to rebuild! : ;D

Cheers Graham.

What makes you think they are supporting old products because of 'compassion and understanding'?

You've never farmed for a living, whether for profit or just simply to stay alive, have you?

Interesting… So the people building these "factory made parts" for 50-year-old tractors are also farmers themselves? I does that business model work?

Or could it be that they found a niche market and are exploiting it...for profit?

I guess you could call farmers a niche market, just like you can call photographers a niche market.

Not farmers...farmers who need factory made parts for 50-year-old tractors. It's nice that you can get them, and too bad you can't get parts for your 12-year-old camera lens, but neither 50-year-old tractors nor 12-year-old lenses are what I would consider mainstream in today's market.

If you are looking for parts for a 50 year old tractor, take the broken part and go visit a machinist.... good luck with lens components....

 

[Sella174]

... 12-year-old lenses are [not] what I would consider mainstream in today's market.

Let's play it a bit further ... my EF 400mm f/5.6 L USM lens was manufactured in August 1993 (UH0801), which makes it over twenty years old. Is this lens on the CPS list of qualifying lenses? Yes. Does Canon still support this lens? Yes.

So where's the rationale? Where's the commitment towards professionals who bought professional grade gear?

Scenario: I'm a professional photographer, with CPS membership. I suddenly hit a bad patch, financially, due to the global economic slump. As a result, I don't "upgrade" my lenses to the very latest. Canon takes one of my professional grade lenses off the list of qualifying lenses and poof! I no longer qualify for CPS membership.

Is this the way to build and maintain customer satisfaction, especially amongst professionals? Why even join CPS, if it's just for owners of "current" gear?

But, hey, I understand that Canon cannot financially offer that kind of a commitment and must always be selling, selling, selling new gear ... for how else will they pay for those 7 patents filed each and every day for the last ten years.

 

[Sella174]

... once you actually explain that the new equipment they need will be more efficient, therefore cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain more reliable, etc they will buy new gear, and thank you for it later!

Partially true. Over here where I kick the sods, a new, small tractor cost about ZAR200000 (two-hundred-thousand ZAR's). That's a big chunk out of your profits. So, you possibly buy one ... with the understanding that it's going to have to work at least twenty years. And you usually relegate the older tractors to other jobs, where the boost in "economy" of the new tractor is negligible.

 

[Loswr]

... 12-year-old lenses are [not] what I would consider mainstream in today's market.

Let's play it a bit further ... my EF 400mm f/5.6 L USM lens was manufactured in August 1993 (UH0801), which makes it over twenty years old. Is this lens on the CPS list of qualifying lenses? Yes. Does Canon still support this lens? Yes.

So where's the rationale? Where's the commitment towards professionals who bought professional grade gear?

Scenario: I'm a professional photographer, with CPS membership. I suddenly hit a bad patch, financially, due to the global economic slump. As a result, I don't "upgrade" my lenses to the very latest. Canon takes one of my professional grade lenses off the list of qualifying lenses and poof! I no longer qualify for CPS membership.

Is this the way to build and maintain customer satisfaction, especially amongst professionals? Why even join CPS, if it's just for owners of "current" gear?

The rationale is that the 400/5.6 is still "current" despite the age of its design, where is your aging 28-70/2.8 has been updated...not once, but twice.

As for your scenario, we've already established that Canon is a for-profit company, and their concern is making profit and returning value to shareholders, not treating customers with compassion, unless that is absolutely required for them to make a profit (hint: it's not). Canon is not a charity, it is in their best interest for you to buy more gear from them. As for CPS in Europe (which, as I understand it, CPS-SA is an affiliate), membership is free. Why should Canon offer free benefits such as accelerated repair turn around and loaner equipment, to photographers who are not keeping current on their gear? Where is the profit in that? (As a side note, you do get what you pay for – in the US, CPS is not free at the gold and platinum levels, but the benefits are more substantial, including repair discounts and free shipping, as well as equipment evaluation loans).

Scenario: I'm a farmer, and a frequent customer of your favorite tractor supply company, CNH Industrial. I suddenly hit a bad patch, financially, due to the global economic slump. As a result, I don't have the money to purchase parts to repair my four broken 50-year-old tractors that I need to plow my fields. Does a 'compassionate and understanding' company like CNH Industries give me the parts I need, for free? Will they do that for all of the farmers who are similarly hit with tough economic times? CHNI is incorporated in the UK, and like Canon they function under a legal requirement to maximize shareholder value. Generally speaking, providing substantial goods and/or services for free, out of a sense of "compassion", is not a good way to make a profit.

 

[Sella174]

Scenario: I'm a farmer, and a frequent customer of your favorite tractor supply company, CNH Industrial. I suddenly hit a bad patch, financially, due to the global economic slump. As a result, I don't have the money to purchase parts to repair my four broken 50-year-old tractors that I need to plow my fields. Does a 'compassionate and understanding' company like CNH Industries give me the parts I need, for free? Will they do that for all of the farmers who are similarly hit with tough economic times? CHNI is incorporated in the UK, and like Canon they function under a legal requirement to maximize shareholder value. Generally speaking, providing substantial goods and/or services for free, out of a sense of "compassion", is not a good way to make a profit.

I never said I wanted free parts ... that is your angle. What I am saying, is that I expect a company like Canon to support their professional grade products well after it has been discontinued. Otherwise, the products are basically disposable. But let me explain it in terms of the scenario that you've mangled ...

Scenario: I'm a farmer, and a frequent customer of your my favourite tractor supply company, CNH Industrial. I suddenly hit a bad patch, financially, due to the global economic slump. As a result, I don't have the money to purchase parts to repair my four broken 50-year-old new tractors that I need to plow my fields. Does a "compassionate and understanding" company like CNH Industrial give provide me with the parts I need, for free at a cost, to repair my four broken 50-year-old tractors? ... CNH is incorporated in the UK, and like Canon they function under a legal requirement to maximize shareholder value. Generally speaking, providing substantial goods and/or services for free to support your products twenty or thirty-five years into the future, out of a sense of "compassion", builds customer confidence and is not a good way to make a profit.

But, essentially, the European way of thinking and doing business is substantially different from the American way of thinking and doing business. Now, throw into the mix the African way of thinking and doing business ...

 

[thepancakeman]

The rationale is that the 400/5.6 is still "current" despite the age of its design, where is your aging 28-70/2.8 has been updated...not once, but twice.

As for your scenario, we've already established that Canon is a for-profit company, and their concern is making profit and returning value to shareholders, not treating customers with compassion, unless that is absolutely required for them to make a profit (hint: it's not).

Actually, many companies have found that good customer service is a great way to make a profit. Is it "required"? Nope, but if you have crappy customer service, you better have a product that no one else can touch or you'll lose your customers.

And I guess I tend to agree, that a professional lens should probably always be a professional lens, regardless of whether there is a newer betterer version. Like Agent Coleson said in Agents of SHIELD, "Many people confuse new and improved."

Of course, I'm not sure how this relates to being innovative and filing patents. ???

 

[Sella174]

Of course, I'm not sure how this relates to being innovative and filing patents. ???

But, hey, I understand that Canon cannot financially offer that kind of a commitment and must always be selling, selling, selling new gear ... for how else will they pay for those 7 patents filed each and every day for the last ten years.

 

[Loswr]

But, essentially, the European way of thinking and doing business is substantially different from the American way of thinking and doing business. Now, throw into the mix the African way of thinking and doing business ...

The Japanese way of thinking and doing business is probably the most relevant factor when discussing Canon…

But, hey, I understand that Canon cannot financially offer that kind of a commitment and must always be selling, selling, selling new gear ... for how else will they pay for those 7 patents filed each and every day for the last ten years.

Oh, please. : The cost to file those patents (including the P&B for legal staff) is completely insignificant relative to the revenue and market cap of a company the size of Canon. The cost of actually conducting the research to generate the data needed to file those patents is significant, and that cost represents Canon's committment to innovation.

Actually, many companies have found that good customer service is a great way to make a profit. Is it "required"? Nope, but if you have crappy customer service, you better have a product that no one else can touch or you'll lose your customers.

I don't disagree with that. In fact, Canon has excellent customer service relative to their market. For example, have a look at Lensrentals' data on repair turnaround time for 2012-2013. Would you really want to wait an average of over three weeks to get your broken lens or camera back from Nikon?

But there's overall customer service, then there's specific aspects of customer service that are important or critical to some people, but probably not to the majority. In the same way as some people think that an extra 2 stops of DR is the most critical aspect of camera performance, others seem to define continuing to provide service for old (outdated) gear as the most critical aspect of customer service. However, the reality is that Canon is an electronics company, not a durable goods company (despite the fact that many of their products fit the definition of durable goods). Electronics companies are fast moving and keep pace with the times. If my old RCA tube television breaks, do you think RCA will provide factory OEM parts for it? I doubt it. But I'd be better off with a new LCD TV anyway, which consumes much less energy and is much less detrimental to the environment.

In fact, the environmental impact may be relevant here - Sella174 has the old Canon 28-70/2.8L which Canon no longer services. That lens has lead in the glass elements, and I suspect that under current environmental regulations in Japan, Canon cannot legally fabricate replacement elements for that lens which match the original optical formula.

 

[Sella174]

In fact, the environmental impact may be relevant here - Sella174 has the old Canon 28-70/2.8L which Canon no longer services. That lens has lead in the glass elements, and I suspect that under current environmental regulations in Japan, Canon cannot legally fabricate replacement elements for that lens which match the original optical formula.

Gosh! Erm, in this case, does Canon offer a recycling service, like HP does with cartridges?

... Canon cannot legally fabricate replacement elements for that lens which match the original optical formula.

True, but how about supporting the mechanics, at least? I mean, we'd all understand if Canon came clean and said, "Look, boys, the optical elements in your lenses contain lead. So, if you damage the elements, then you're up chocolate creek without a popsicle stick. But if the USM motor goes, by all means send it in for repairs."