Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer

[benkam]

Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

Classy. Don't actually engage with people, just accuse them of being shills. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't share your opinions?

Oh please. Classy of you to delete the context of that response.

Are you AvTvM in disguise?

So he was the first to accuse me of being another poster.

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum* Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now? Why are your predictions (that seem to be based only on your desires and needs) more accurate than all those others'?

"Several years" ago mirrorless tech was new and immature. It's been growing up fast. This is like just before Netflix and you're saying, wellll, they've been saying for years interactive TV was going to take over but where is it now...then boom! That's why Canon itself is getting into this also. I only want them to come out faster.

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Yawn. Other companies have failed in the past, so it must be that Canon will? Along with your ad hominem above, you're showing an aptitude for logical fallacies if nothing else. We've been through this so many times on these forums that it's beyond tedious: mirrorless is not a paradigm shift like smartphones or the switch from film to digital, and Canon is much more clued up (from what we can tell) about market positioning than some of those previous examples. Mirrorless is coming, it's here, but Canon isn't losing market share, and not one of these magical Sony cameras has harmed them. So why do you believe they have to release what *you* want right now or they'll fail?

Yawn back. What makes *you* think Canon is immune to this when much bigger companies have succumbed to complacency as well.

Again, I'd like to see more of Canon, not less. When Canon release their FF mirrorless sooner rather than later and show some innovations of their own in this field, this will be a sign they're adapting to the cutting edge of new technology, which they can then trickle down to their other products as is their practice. That happens, it'll be a good thing, not bad.

 

[Loswr]

It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now?

Because the a9. Sure, it didn't happen with the a7. Or the a7R. Or the A7S. Or the a7RII. All of which were much more in line with prosumer FF dSLR pricing. But it's going to happen with the much more expensive a9. Why now? Because benkam says so. You can take that to the benk.

Incidentally, it seems the MacOS spelling autocorrect has the OP's number pretty clearly. ;D

 

[Don Haines]

We have to remember that one buys more than a body, they buy a SYSTEM. You need the body, but you also need things like lenses, flashes, and software. The camera's ergonomics have to match your needs. The price has to match your range.

There is no such thing as a "killer" camera, from ANY company!

 

[bholliman]

I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII? Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer. But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

 

[Mikehit]

Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

You are AvTvM in disguise! Any person who disagrees with your outlook must be a Canon employee!

Well, I don't expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless for the obvious reason they can't be that anymore, right?


I like their cameras, that's it, and I've found myself yearning for an EVF and silent operation and all that so I'd like Canon to continue supplying that camera as I'm aiming to jump to full frame. I'd prefer that but I'm not ideologically attached to the brand.

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum*

Mirrorless is the future. No-one denies that. The question is how quickly do other companies need to introduce their technology to avoid the pitfalls you describe. I am not convinced it is as urgent as you (or AvTvM) believe it is. Sony have mirrorless technology but have a poor lens line-up and piss-poor after sales service.
Canon have strong base, excellent gear line up and great after-sales service. I don't care how good the A9 is - if they cannot back it up with reliable service, professionals as a whole will not adopt the system.

Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

Define 'more quickly'. More quickly than what?
Their mirrorless sales are doing well, and each model iteration closes the gap with Sony. Why is full-frame mirrorless so important when the majority market (and the money spinner) is covered by the M series?
Where is the market imperative to rush out a FF mirrorless?
AvTvM could not answer that one, and I doubt you can.

 

[benkam]

Define 'more quickly'. More quickly than what?
Their mirrorless sales are doing well, and each model iteration closes the gap with Sony. Why is full-frame mirrorless so important when the majority market (and the money spinner) is covered by the M series?
Where is the market imperative to rush out a FF mirrorless?
AvTvM could not answer that one, and I doubt you can.

I'd like Canon to release their first mirrorless FF, probably a 6D-level, as soon as this year or early next year. Because it'll take then time to release their more advanced models will come after that and then those will take even more time. The later they delay they release their FF ML, the more behind they are.

So when do you want Canon to release their first FF mirrorless? 2020? 2025? And why? Answer that.

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation. Canon release their first FF mirrorless in 2020 or 2025 that'll be too far into the future. Mirrorless is the future so I'd like it to be seriously part of their present sooner rather than the later.

 

[ahsanford]

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII? Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer. But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

It's funny you just asked that as PP just tried to lay out a few arguments for such a move:
https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/sony-a9-feature-will-make-pros-switch/

My gut is less about any single feature so much as the A9 attempts to -- at a feature spec-sheet level -- to say yes to more 'Can it do that?' questions.

Can it shoot at high FPS with continually tracking AF? Yes.
Can it shoot 4K without major strings attached? Believe so. (I'm sure people want codec X or 60 fps, but no crop is pretty nice)
Does it have a boatload of AF points? Yes
Does it have a tilty-flippy? Yes
Does it have dual cards? Yes
Can I adapt other mounts' glass? Yes
Does it have support for manual focus lenses? Yes
Can it amplify the viewfinder in a dark room? Yes

But...

Does it capture color correctly?
Is the tracking AF always working or does it get locked out sometimes?
Are you always getting 14 bit uncompressed RAW?
Do you really think it could survive rough-handling or a drop like a 1D series (or even 5D series) could?
Do they offer mechanically focusing lenses?
Is there a chunky grip for comfortably holding big lenses?
Is there room for your fingers when you use a big lens?
Have their menus and controls improved?
Do they have 80+ native lenses currently in production like Canon does?
Do they have great customer service?
Do they have many 3rd party options for lenses, flashes, accessories, etc.?

...so yes, they've jammed a lot into the this new rig, but it appears that they're just overloading the 'horsepower specs' (sensor, MP, fps, AF points, etc.) rather than fleshing out a more robust and comprehensive platform.

They will get some pros with the A9, but I'm not certain those pros will be happy with the system they've migrated to.

- A

 

[Loswr]

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff? You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...

But on the other hand, if you define 'lead in innovation' as making the products that you specifically want, that makes perfect sense.

You are AvTvM in disguise! Any person who disagrees with your outlook must be a Canon employee!

...and unless Canon does what I want, they are doomed. Yep, sounds a lot like AvTvM.

 

[ahsanford]

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

Nonsense. Let me get this straight: Canon is supposed to lead in innovation rate because 'they are expected to?' Proud idiots run businesses that way.

Canon's job is simple: fulfill the goals of its leadership -- typically this comes in the form of profitability, market share, sales growth, etc. And that's exactly what they are doing.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Why no weather sealing?

I thought I saw that the A9 was sealed, but apparently not? This is all I found from the Sony launch website. This would appear that they are in some tap-dancing middle ground between claiming it is weather-sealed vs. not saying anything at all.

Please let me know if I missed something in the announcement about this.

- A

 

[midluk]

Why no weather sealing?

I thought I saw that the A9 was sealed, but apparently not? This is all I found from the Sony launch website. This would appear that they are in some tap-dancing middle ground between claiming it is weather-sealed vs. not saying anything at all.

Canon also does not make any hard claims when it comes to weather sealing and denies any liability.
"It is weather sealed up to the degree it is not. "

 

[bholliman]

It's funny you just asked that as PP just tried to lay out a few arguments for such a move:
https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/sony-a9-feature-will-make-pros-switch/

- A

The PP article seems to be pretty pro-Sony, apparently buying into the recent mis-information (selective statistics?) about Sony displacing Nikon at #2 for FF systems. They also imply that many pro photographers have been migrating from Canon/Nikon to Sony and this may escalate the shift.

Personally, I can't imagine that 20 fps vs. 16 is that big a deal, but then I'm not a sports photographer. PP thinks the silent shutter is very significant, and maybe it is for some uses. 1/32,000 max shutter speed, nice, but pretty limited uses.

 

[[email protected]]

I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII? Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer. But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

One frustration I'm seeing with the 1dx2 that I have right now (must return on Friday) is that it's only 20mp. I think I've been spoiled by the 30mp on my 5d4, coupled with the same on-chip ADC giving me fantastic file flexibility. I'm in Virginia right now shooting eagles and ospreys, and I'm finding that the 50 percent more mp on the 5D4 makes a big difference. Of course, the downside of the 5d4 is the anemic fps. Sony seems to have solved the fps issue better than anyone, and the 24mp would be more adequate.

As an action/wildlife guy, the Canon consistency and sanity of its menu system is important to me, and Sony needs much improvement on that. Will be interesting to see if the a9 makes any progress on that front, as well as whether there is weatherproofing, file compression or various other previous Sony bugaboos. The battery life sounds abysmal. I regularly shoot 2000 frames in a few hours when doing action at high fps. Switching four times would mean I'd likely loose a few series in the scrum of changing batteries.

I'm not saying I'm going to pre-order, but given my timeframe (within 6-12 months), I'll be watching real-world reviews carefully. If there are lots of people like me, this doesn't doom Canon, but it does potentially chip away at the marketshare in a small way. This is not a bad thing at all. The worst thing for all of us - Canon fanboys included - is that Sony packs up like Samsung and stops acting as a competitive nudge to Canon.

I might see if I can rent the A9 in a few months along with an adapter to test out the Canon big whites, and perhaps a Sigma 500.

 

[bholliman]

I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII? Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer. But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

One frustration I'm seeing with the 1dx2 that I have right now (must return on Friday) is that it's only 20mp. I think I've been spoiled by the 30mp on my 5d4, coupled with the same on-chip ADC giving me fantastic file flexibility. I'm in Virginia right now shooting eagles and ospreys, and I'm finding that the 50 percent more mp on the 5D4 makes a big difference. Of course, the downside of the 5d4 is the anemic fps. Sony seems to have solved the fps issue better than anyone, and the 24mp would be more adequate.

As an action/wildlife guy, the Canon consistency and sanity of its menu system is important to me, and Sony needs much improvement on that. Will be interesting to see if the a9 makes any progress on that front, as well as whether there is weatherproofing, file compression or various other previous Sony bugaboos. The battery life sounds abysmal. I regularly shoot 2000 frames in a few hours when doing action at high fps. Switching four times would mean I'd likely loose a few series in the scrum of changing batteries.

I'm not saying I'm going to pre-order, but given my timeframe (within 6-12 months), I'll be watching real-world reviews carefully. If there are lots of people like me, this doesn't doom Canon, but it does potentially chip away at the marketshare in a small way. This is not a bad thing at all. The worst thing for all of us - Canon fanboys included - is that Sony packs up like Samsung and stops acting as a competitive nudge to Canon.

I might see if I can rent the A9 in a few months along with an adapter to test out the Canon big whites, and perhaps a Sigma 500.

Some good points! To me until Sony improves their service and support they won't be able to fully complete with the vast majority of sports and wildlife pros, but I'm sure they can pull some consumers away from C/N.

I agree that competition is a very good thing for the consumer.

 

[[email protected]]

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention: silence.

The 1DX2 and the 5D4 "silent" modes are like a Monty Python running gag. I'm trying to take pictures of quail coveys from 15 feet, and this might as well be a 20 gauge shotgun.

I took a picture of this guy below yesterday evening with the 1DX2 in "silent" mode. Think he stuck around?

 

[Don Haines]

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention: silence.

The 1DX2 and the 5D4 "silent" modes are like a Monty Python running gag. I'm trying to take pictures of quail coveys from 15 feet, and this might as well be a 20 gauge shotgun.

I took a picture of this guy below yesterday evening with the 1DX2 in "silent" mode. Think he stuck around?

I agree.

I took this shot with my iPad and the bunnies did not move.

 

[Loswr]

You guys just need to find less skittish bunnies (well, not you, Don – you need to eat yours). We frequently have 4-6 of them in our yard, they don't even flinch with my 1D X burst shooting, and they wait until my kids run to within a couple of meters of them before bolting. On the flip side, when the spring bulbs start coming up and are promptly mowed down by a herd of bunnies, tiggy's 20-gauge seems worthy of consideration.

 

[Kit Lens Jockey]

I really enjoy how a contentious discussion about Canon's market dominance has devolved into posting bunny photos. :

 

[benkam]

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff? You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...

Okey-dokey, thanks for the personal attacks. Whatever makes you feel big in your small mind, mate.

With your kind of attitude and in a sad world you had any influence with an industry leader, you'd be leading it the way of Nokia. Congrats.

 

[ahsanford]

I really enjoy how a contentious discussion about Canon's market dominance has devolved into posting bunny photos. :

And Neuro's bunny was of course shot with an 800 prime from the next house over.

- A