Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer

[ahsanford]

With your kind of attitude and in a sad world you had any influence with an industry leader, you'd be leading it the way of Nokia. Congrats.

Why don't you throw Kodak or whoever else you want in there? Big companies can fail due to bad decisions, poor vision, lack of innovation, etc. We get it.

What we're saying is that it's not that dire a situation at present for Canon. FF mirrorless is...

a) ...not an enormous part of the overall market

b) ...something Canon can reasonably fast-follow in when the market says it's time to do so (people's exhibit A = the EOS M platform)

c) ...not driving many CaNikon's professionals to ditch their SLRs

d) ...not markedly better than an SLR. It has strengths and weaknesses and is not the clearly best rig to buy for all needs.

e) ...only a certain portion of the appeal of an imaging platform. Lenses matter. Service matters. Durability matters. Resale value matters. An A9 being released does very little to help those other items to improve in the near term.

So, yes, mirrorless FF is the future, but that future is not immiment, and Canon's in no danger of missing out on it.

- A

 

[Loswr]

I really enjoy how a contentious discussion about Canon's market dominance has devolved into posting bunny photos. :

And Neuro's bunny was of course shot with an 800 prime from the next house over.

Lol. That one was with the 70-300L, I was laying down in my yard near the bunny. But...this one is with the 600/4L IS II, the bunny was still in my yard, but I was inside my house shooting out the window.

 

[Loswr]

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff? You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...

Okey-dokey, thanks for the personal attacks. Whatever makes you feel big in your small mind, mate.

With your kind of attitude and in a sad world you had any influence with an industry leader, you'd be leading it the way of Nokia. Congrats.

If you're going to make ridiculous statements, being ridiculed is not unlikely. Your prediciton of dire consequences for Canon if they don't release a FF MILC on your personal timetable is ludicrous. As was pointed out previously, the analogies you're using are cases of paradigm shifts, and if you're going to argue that MILCs, particularly FF MILCs, represent a paradigm shift for the ILC market, you'll merely make yourself look even more foolish than you have done so far. But maybe your goal is to look foolish, and in that case, congrats to you.

 

[Loswr]

I really enjoy how a contentious discussion about Canon's market dominance has devolved into posting bunny photos. :

I'm thinking maybe you weren't around when discussions of DxO devolved into Squirrel-Fest 2014. Lots of nuts back then, ask Don... ;D

 

[Don Haines]

With your kind of attitude and in a sad world you had any influence with an industry leader, you'd be leading it the way of Nokia. Congrats.

Why don't you throw Kodak or whoever else you want in there? Big companies can fail due to bad decisions, poor vision, lack of innovation, etc. We get it.

What we're saying is that it's not that dire a situation at present for Canon. FF mirrorless is...

a) ...not an enormous part of the overall market

b) ...something Canon can reasonably fast-follow in when the market says it's time to do so (people's exhibit A = the EOS M platform)

c) ...not driving many CaNikon's professionals to ditch their SLRs

d) ...not markedly better than an SLR. It has strengths and weaknesses and is not the clearly best rig to buy for all needs.

e) ...only a certain portion of the appeal of an imaging platform. Lenses matter. Service matters. Durability matters. Resale value matters. An A9 being released does very little to help those other items to improve in the near term.

So, yes, mirrorless FF is the future, but that future is not immiment, and Canon's in no danger of missing out on it.

- A

Not only that, but with the M series Canon is actively engaged in the mirrorless and all the lessons learned with the M and all the experience gathered will help when they eventually do go FF mirrorless.

 

[Loswr]

Not only that, but with the M series Canon is actively engaged in the mirrorless and all the lessons learned with the M and all the experience gathered will help when they eventually do go FF mirrorless.

More than just 'actively engaged'...Canon is selling more MILCs than Olympus or Panasonic. Given their relatively recent and limited (although expanding) efforts in mirrorless, the fact that they're now #2 globally suggests they have a good undestanding of the mirrorless market (and obvoiusly, the ILC market as a whole).

 

[Ryananthony]

A large percent of the people I talk too about cameras only know of canon or nikon. I would also guess that 90 percent of people who ask what brand of camera I use ask that question while guessing it's canon. It might be foolish to assume, but I would imagine if any of those people were interested in a camera themselves, canon is where they would start.

Canon is a household name when it comes to cameras. It will take a long time for someone to knock them off their thrown.

With that said, this is the first Sony A- series camera that has intrigued me. Im excited to see what tech follows in the a7/r/s line. Having 2 back button focusing options for AF and one for Eye focus would be nice, also, from what I've seen you can connect two completely different exposure settings to each AF button too which could be really neat.

 

[HarryFilm]

Let's see how it handles in real-world use, shall we? Does it shoot 20fps in all conditions, or only compressed raw with some lenses (as the footnotes to its release statement suggest)? Its weatherproofing is ridiculously non-existent for a flagship aimed at the pro sports/wildlife. How will it handle the Canon big whites (wildlife photographers will not be happy limited to 400mm zooms?)

Canons 'consumer level ' mirrorless are gaining ground with every iteration to the point where it is almost ergonomics that make the real difference, and while I can see the A9 as a great upgrade for A7 users I am not sure it will tempt many pros to switch from Canon at that level.

Sony is a great test bed and technology leader rather than market leader. But I am sure Canon will keep closing the gap.

---

In terms of performance almost ANY CAMERA will do IF you know what to do with it!

As a technological statement, I can say I've used a lot of different cameras and lenses and while Sony, Canon and Nikon have their place, I will ALSO SAY that my Sony Xperia Z-series smartphone has FANTASTIC 4K footage which I edit down to 2K using a fancy resizer and sharpener for some of our internal videos. The quality is actually QUITE AMAZING if you grade the saturation, contrast and black levels correctly! If you use an external bluetooth microphone the sound is ALSO amazing!

While we also use our internally-owned A7s2, two Canon 5Dmk2's, Four Canon 1Dc's, some Sony HDcam TV News Cameras, Canon C100 mk1/C300 Mk2's and also use the C500 for some higher end stuff and anotehr ridiculously expensive ultra-large specialty sensor camera for our more secretive customer projects. We even use a few GoPros too in certain situations!

Personally, while this statement may be heresy, I just happen to like my Sony xPeria Z-series smartphone the BEST since it is ALWAYS with me! Hence I get photos and video WHEN something good is happening RIGHT NOW! I've even done MULTIPLE off-the-cuff interviews with it! AND THEY LOOKED and SOUNDED GREAT!

The BEST CAMERA is the working one that is in your hands RIGHT NOW!

So Focus Sharp! Crop Hard and Boost your Levels!

 

[HarryFilm]

We have to remember that one buys more than a body, they buy a SYSTEM. You need the body, but you also need things like lenses, flashes, and software. The camera's ergonomics have to match your needs. The price has to match your range.

There is no such thing as a "killer" camera, from ANY company!

---

I beg to differ on that!

The Sony F65 I recently rented and the Red Weapon 8k were pretty darn near PERFECT the last time I used them for BOTH Moving Video AND Still Images!

There ARE "Perfect Cameras" out there but you WILL PAY a pretty penny for the privilege! ....BUT...if you want to get close in a REALLY SMALL ALL-IN-ONE PACKAGE at a very decent price, the Sony xPeria Z5 Premium 4K smartphone is really hard to beat in terms of bang-for-the-buck!

I would definitely get a PREMIUM external microphone system with it if you want to match the stills/video quality with really great sound!

 

[brad-man]

It's time for a new keyboard Harry. You're CAPSLK button seems to have run amok...

 

[privatebydesign]

It's time for a new keyboard Harry. You're CAPSLK button seems to have run amok...

The more he writes the more I think he is related to mikael, anybody else see the similarities?

 

[HarryFilm]

It's time for a new keyboard Harry. You're CAPSLK button seems to have run amok...

The more he writes the more I think he is related to mikael, anybody else see the similarities?

---

NO RELATION WHATSOEVER --- I'm in Vancouver, Canada -- he is elsewhere!

and my CAPSLOCK actually IS sticky from waaay too much spilled coffee, too much Tim Hortons Timbit crumbs and the sweat off all my disbelief at WHY everyone takes CanonRumors sooooo SERIOUSLY! It's what the site owner SAYS IT IS --- it's all just rumours (or rumors for you USA-based users!). STOP taking its content as pure gospel as there will ALWAYS be conjecture, extrapolation, intentional leaks and other such minutae...soooo again....take EVERYTHING with more than a few grains of salt and WAIT for the real announcements from the real manufacturers before getting all worked up over nothing at all!

 

[benkam]

With your kind of attitude and in a sad world you had any influence with an industry leader, you'd be leading it the way of Nokia. Congrats.

Why don't you throw Kodak or whoever else you want in there? Big companies can fail due to bad decisions, poor vision, lack of innovation, etc. We get it.

What we're saying is that it's not that dire a situation at present for Canon. FF mirrorless is...

a) ...not an enormous part of the overall market

b) ...something Canon can reasonably fast-follow in when the market says it's time to do so (people's exhibit A = the EOS M platform)

c) ...not driving many CaNikon's professionals to ditch their SLRs

d) ...not markedly better than an SLR. It has strengths and weaknesses and is not the clearly best rig to buy for all needs.

e) ...only a certain portion of the appeal of an imaging platform. Lenses matter. Service matters. Durability matters. Resale value matters. An A9 being released does very little to help those other items to improve in the near term.

So, yes, mirrorless FF is the future, but that future is not immiment, and Canon's in no danger of missing out on it.

- A

I get your points. I agree with some, disagree with others.

I still think it's important for Canon to live up to being industry leaders by showing us innovation in mirrorless, particularly FF.

 

[Jopa]

Ok, let's think for a moment... If any one had experience with the A99 or A7 series cameras, you guys should be aware they all fall back to 12bit when shooting in bursts. Also 20 fps is possible shooting only lossy compressed RAW. It's also possible with electronic shutter only, so no strobes. The readout is fast but it still has rolling shutter (check Max Yuriev's video). It means shooting with the ES only fast moving subjects may look skewed. Of course one can always switch to the mechanical shutter and enjoy blazing fast 5 fps. No S-log even all Sony cameras offer it now. No native "pro" sports/wildlife glass (please don't start a conversation about adapters ), and the body size/ergonomics wasn't even designed for it. No 4k 60p (but they mentioned 60 fps AF/AE calculations?). It's 2017 kind of... Questionable support. Always questionable weather sealing. And the last question - will it blend overheat? I shoot both Sony (my first system) and Canon, but I really don't understand this move from Sony. I personally was expecting a high res high quality sensor cam, but definitely not this creature.

 

[Mikehit]

I still think it's important for Canon to live up to being industry leaders by showing us innovation in mirrorless, particularly FF.

I would be surprised if Canon's technology pipeline was not close to that of Sony. The difference from what I have seen is that Canon will not release a technology until they are confident it is the best they can do at that time. Sony, however, have a rapid turnover of new models which suggests that they are releasing as soon as they can get a spec sheet out - and comments a couple of years ago when they released 2 models within a year had early adopters complaining that the second model was the camera the first one should have been if they had only waited a few months.

I think what we are now seeing is that mirrorless is offering a break from the 'people buy cameras they see the professionals using'. Canon has massive presence at key events and so people associate Canon with cameras. Mirrorless offers size advantages that overcome that in part - most people buy only the kit lens and a small telephoto zoom (55-250, 70-300) and never buy anything else. The fact that the Sony plus a 24-70f2.8 offers little to no size saving over DSLR is irrelevant because those people will never buy one. So the market is changing....but changing very slowly. I have advised several friends and acquaintances on their first camera; I have shown them the small size and image quality of MFTs...but they still buy a Canon DSLR because that is what they consider a camera to be. Canon knows this which is why (IMO) they are taking their time to introduce mirrrorless - they see the market figures and they see how the subliminal marketing works. They have their mirrorless cameras and those sell well.
The A9 is aimed at the pros and Sony have too many reputational disadvantages to get a wholesale shift in the pro market. The last Sony camera releases were supposed to be the ones that caused that shift but there were too many operational glitches (including compressed raw images at high frame rates) so the market has been bitten before and I think they will be very cautious and wait to see what the real world reviews are like. Sony cameras may make 'favoured second camera status' for some and that may be their way in but that is a long-term market strategy and I am wondering if Sony has the stomach for that.

 

[privatebydesign]

It's time for a new keyboard Harry. You're CAPSLK button seems to have run amok...

The more he writes the more I think he is related to mikael, anybody else see the similarities?

---

NO RELATION WHATSOEVER --- I'm in Vancouver, Canada -- he is elsewhere!

and my CAPSLOCK actually IS sticky from waaay too much spilled coffee, too much Tim Hortons Timbit crumbs and the sweat off all my disbelief at WHY everyone takes CanonRumors sooooo SERIOUSLY! It's what the site owner SAYS IT IS --- it's all just rumours (or rumors for you USA-based users!). STOP taking its content as pure gospel as there will ALWAYS be conjecture, extrapolation, intentional leaks and other such minutae...soooo again....take EVERYTHING with more than a few grains of salt and WAIT for the real announcements from the real manufacturers before getting all worked up over nothing at all!

I have relations in Canada, U.K., New Zealand, Caribbean, USA.

I didn't say I thought you were our old contributor, I said I thought you sounded related, and you really do. Besides shrouding isp's is child's play.

 

[dak723]

Sony may be a "killer" on the spec sheet, but personally I will never go Sony again as long as they continue to use their short flange distance. That is indeed a "killer" for me having been "fooled" twice in getting an A7 and then A7 II thinking those cameras would replace my 6D. I'm not a pro and can't afford their more expensive lenses which, apparently, get around the short flange distance issue by making the end of the lens longer. The kit lenses (which aren't cheap, either) produce pics with awful IQ away from the center. Ming Thein, famous photographer, offers a similar assessment saying that it took him 6 tries to get an acceptable Sony zoom lens. Yeah, the latest tech is great as long as it works. In Sony's case, there seems to be enough evidence that it isn't working all that well. But boy those spec sheets are the best ever!

Sorry, but as the Who said, "I won't be fooled again."

 

[barton springs]

20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features. $4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

I'm impressed with this new product. In another 5-years SONY will surely have a 300 2.8 & 400 as well then the pro sports shooters new to the game have a 3rd company to consider for gear. Present day pros like me NO WAY. Just the way a 1D series body feel in my hand is going to be hard to overcome, same for NIKON pros.

The fully silent, vibration-free operation is really cool for personal use. For a gymnastics or tennis assignment it'd be sweet to have silent operation The fast focusing is essential for us but can anything beat out a 1D-- w/300 2.8L IS or w/70-200 2.8L IS for action?

The much lighter weight is great but you have to have a much lighter lens for balance. The much smaller body feels awful. I've yet to try one of the SONY mirrorless w/battery grip & verticle release button which must help a lot but it'll still feel too small.

I bet this one is more durable with no moving parts. Love that. The "pro" GM Master lenses are almost as heavy as the L lens but there's only 70-200 & 24-70 2.8 to compare.

I'm surprised CANON seems so unconcerned about all this. Market share is hard enough to hold on to.

 

[benkam]

No S-log even all Sony cameras offer it now.

Yeah, strange move for Sony but there's this leading camera company that later offered that missing something through a firmware upgrade. Who knows what happens there too.

No native "pro" sports/wildlife glass (please don't start a conversation about adapters ),

True, but it was always going to be a chicken-or-egg situation for another company that wanted to enter this market. They at least have their 70-200 2.8 and their new 100-400 GM to start with. That of course isn't enough and Sony would of course only be fooling themselves if they don't release other glass. I'm guessing the ubiquitous superteles like the 400 2.8, 300 2.8, 600 f4 would probably have to be among the first native ones they develop and release in the near future.

Sony had a joke FE lens lineup when they started but let us recall this was only 3 years ago and at this point, while Canon still has the absolute lens count advantage, we have to admit the gap of their available native lens in many of the mainstream focal lengths has considerably narrowed.

I really don't understand this move from Sony. I personally was expecting a high res high quality sensor cam, but definitely not this creature.

At the rate they've been releasing new bodies, as Tony Northrup speculated in their vid on the A9 launch, we could probably also expect an A9R with that silly-high MP count. They already have that new body to put it in.

What this all shows is that the competition isn't sleeping for sure.

 

[Aussie shooter]

Canon have built their reputation on producing products that work. And work and work. Not on producing products that have a plethora of unnecessary gimicks and additions. Canon will make a FF mirrorless eventually and when they do it will work. It will last and it will be very very tough. They will not release one untill they are sure that is the case unlike Sony who seem happy to release low quality/ feature packed toys that require lots of upgrades before they are good enough to be called pro level. When canon finally release this FF mirrorless there is a high likelyhood that pros will pick it up and when consumers see lots of pros using it they will take to it like a duck to water and sony will not be able to compete.