Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer

[Loswr]

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

Careful...your bias is showing. Canon 'has the edge' over Sony in pro still photography? Sure, just like China has the edge over Zimbabwe in GDP. :

Sony 'rules the roost' for broadcast video gear? For heads, sure...but last time I checked, it was kinda hard to shoot broadcast footage with just a camera head. Who 'rules the roost' for field lenses? In the last Sony video catalog I looked through, all their cameras were mounted on DIGISUPER lenses, although Sony thoughtfully photoshopped out the Canon logos.

Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

Ahhh, yet another armchair business expert. How do Wharton and HBS manage to stay afloat with all of you out there? It seems you don't understand how a keiretsu functions. Suffice it to say that Nikon does not have the resources of the Mitsubishi Group at their beck and call.

Did you forget to take your pills again this morning? Why don't you stick a post-it on your fridge's door to remind you!

Oh, and why don't you business expert again elaborate on how companies are legally forced to make profit? This was a wonderful laugh...

Oh, you mean the discussion where you failed to prove anything, then resorted to calling me names, exemplifying behavior typical of a petulant child? That wasn't laughable, just rather sad. :

In this case, your post implies that I'm incorrect – in which case, you appear to agree that Nikon does have access to the full resources of the Mitsubishi Group, and thus, "..if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony and Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power."

If your intent is for people to find you laughable, you're succeeding. If you have different intentions, you should probably quit while you're behind. Or you could try calling me names again...much like benkam you seem to have an aptitude for that, if little else.

 

[benkam]

Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable? Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults. I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

 

[Luds34]

At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

And those with an "above average" disposable income.

 

[Loswr]

Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable? Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults. I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

As expected, you can't formulate and express a cogent counterargumenrt, so instead you'll provide another example of petulant, childish behavior by taking your marbles and running home (but not without tossing out another insult). How sad.

 

[benkam]

Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable? Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults. I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

As expected, you can't formulate and express a cogent counterargumenrt, so instead you'll provide another example of petulant, childish behavior by taking your marbles and running home (but not without tossing out another insult). How sad.

A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

 

[Loswr]

A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

I don't 'deserve' anything. If you want to post a topic making a claim, and are subsequently unable to defend that claim against logical arguments and evidence, that's your problem (one of many, I'm sure), not mine.

But since your are evidently unable to do anything but repetitively toss out the same meaningless insult, you've at least made it clear that there's no point in further discussion (not that logic and evidence countered by petulant name calling actually constitutes a discussion). Enjoy your day.

 

[ahsanford]

At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4. Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.

FWIW, I believe that Sony believes the A7 platform acquits itself quite nicely vs. the 5D line.

- A

 

[Loswr]

At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4. Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.

Agreed – on both counts.

I wonder what DPR will conclude about the a9's AF tracking compared to Nikon's D5 automagical prognosticating 4D designed-by-God AF tracking system.

 

[rrcphoto]

20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features

$4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

dubious weathersealing. the ports certainly don't appear sealed at all.
dubious support. they will finally have walk in centers. will they have parts?
no telephotos or pro lens over 200mm really unless you think a 100-400 3.5-5.6 is it)
fully electronic shutter for most shooting modes only 5fps if you use an actual mechanical shutter. light fllicker, fast action - who knows what kind of influence that will have.
still a small fiddly ergonomic nightmare. can you see pros with thick heavy gloves at the side of superbowl shooting with this?

ps .. the 1DX Mark II is 16 fps - and is built like a brick and built to survive rough environments. the D5 is a completely awesome machine as well. no one is going to give up those two machines for an A9.

the EVF was very cool though. you really couldn't tell you were shooting unless you looked at the shot counter.

also how well will this perform with long fast lenses in dimmer light? major defocus and low contrast AF has been very hard on the A7 series cameras. anything over 85mm in dim light can be a no-go.

also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down. need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

Trusting sony specs always is a losing bet.

 

[rrcphoto]

At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4. Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.

FWIW, I believe that Sony believes the A7 platform acquits itself quite nicely vs. the 5D line.

- A

if you go by specs. but then again the lack of true weathersealing aka OM or 1DX / D5,etc will turn off many.

also how well will an electronic shutter do for fast action? or flickering gym lights?

 

[ahsanford]

also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down. need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason. Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

- A

 

[benkam]

A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

I don't 'deserve' anything. If you want to post a topic making a claim, and are subsequently unable to defend that claim against logical arguments and evidence, that's your problem (one of many, I'm sure), not mine.

But since your are evidently unable to do anything but repetitively toss out the same meaningless insult, you've at least made it clear that there's no point in further discussion (not that logic and evidence countered by petulant name calling actually constitutes a discussion). Enjoy your day.

Oh yes you do. I'm here for reasoned discussion but when you sneak in personal attacks, I stop hearing you. That's what you deserve. I don't care if you have more posts than photos. With your smugness, your opinion is of no value to me. None.

 

[Loswr]

also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down. need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason. Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

He is referring to the fact that some Sony cameras perform focusing with the lens stopped down. It appears to be dependent upon body, lens (native versus adapted) and shooting mode.

Of relevance to this discussion is that, for example, the a7RII in AF-C mode (= Canon AI servo) takes the first shot with the lens wide open, but then performs AF tracking with the lens at your selected aperture for shooting. So, if you are at f/5.6 or f/8, that means you're losing accuracy for PDAF, and losing light for CDAF...in other words, AF performance suffers.

 

[ahsanford]

also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down. need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason. Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

He is referring to the fact that some Sony cameras perform focusing with the lens stopped down. It appears to be dependent upon body, lens (native versus adapted) and shooting mode.

Of relevance to this discussion is that, for example, the a7RII in AF-C mode (= Canon AI servo) takes the first shot with the lens wide open, but then performs AF tracking with the lens at your selected aperture for shooting. So, if you are at f/5.6 or f/8, that means you're losing accuracy for PDAF, and losing light for CDAF...in other words, AF performance suffers.

Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use? (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

- A

 

[Loswr]

Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use? (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

That's my understanding. But I also recall having read that with fast primes (f/1.4, etc.), it stops down for AF even with a wide open aperture selected for the shot. I'm not sure if that's true, though.

 

[ahsanford]

Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use? (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

That's my understanding. But I also recall having read that with fast primes (f/1.4, etc.), it stops down for AF even with a wide open aperture selected for the shot. I'm not sure if that's true, though.

It's worth a read in their manuals. When it comes to AF and high speed shooting on the A99-II, for instance, there was fine. print. for. days. that you had to cross-reference to back out what the real situation was. Some older lenses had AF locked (forget aperture for AF, I'm talking AF at all) after the first exposure, while screamingly high fps rates were only possible with compressed output.

It's offensive to me as a consumer that they somewhat mislead / cook the books to sell a spec sheet and not a camera. Canon has it's fine print as well, but I tend to see that fine print right on the spec sheet adjacent to the spec in question (e.g. 14 fps max with mirror, 16 fps with MLU), which I find a more honorable / up-front way of doing business.

But I'll give Sony some credit: at least they are making the fine-print available before pre-orders these days. I think the 12 bit RAW revelation on the A7R II had a bit of a backlash they'd like to avoid in the future.

- A

 

[JPAZ]

FWIW, I really like FF on my 5Diii. My M3 is of utility because it is smaller (as are the EF-M lenses) but is not my "go to" because the mirror slapper is faster, has (imho) better IQ, and more utility. I have a friend who shoots an A7iiR and I've tried it. It is very nice and (except for the limited and expensive lens selection or the need for an adapter to use my Canon stable and the ergonomics when using big glass) yields better stuff than I can get out of my M3. But, I am not changing to Sony (or Fuji or any other MILC) at this point.

My hope is that the A9 is one more impetus for Canon to continue to develop the mirrorless line. If and when there is a FF mirrorless that is smaller and lighter than than the 5D's, I'll pay attention.

 

[slclick]

Here we go, the same old tired song. Canon is doomed. Better come out with a competitor this week or bankruptcy. Yeah, let's forget product cycles and all things well, logical and mature. Enjoy your Sony, especially the firmware and service.

 

[Don Haines]

We must ask ourselves a simple question.... Why would you like to go FF instead of using a crop camera?

The almost universal answer is because we want improved image quality.....

If we want improved image quality, then we also want top quality lenses....

This is the point where the argument for thin mirrorless cameras with shorter flange distances falls apart.

To get a thin mirrorless camera with a short flange distance, you need to re-design the lenses to bend the light more sharply, and when you bend the light more sharply, you end up with more distortion and more problems with chromatic aberration. This causes you to loose image quality, and that violates the reason why you went FF in the first place. The next problem occurs at the sensor. Since the light is now at more of an angle to the sensor, there is more light lost through hitting the sides of the photocells and more light lost through vignetting. Loss of light means loss of image quality and the heavier vignetting adds in more noise when you correct for it in software.

Photography is about the capture of light..... the more the better, so why throw some away? When Canon gives us a FF mirrorless, they will make sure that it is worth buying it, so expect a 5D size body and EF lenses on it.

 

[Duckman]

Looks to be an interesting camera. I'm curious what the details are on FPS and all that...
Not a camera I'm looking to purchase (I'm way too invested in Canon) but I do think it's good overall for consumers Sony appears to be trying to push the envelope.
I am looking forward to when Canon releases a FF mirrorless; I truly hope they do it right out of the gate!
-J