Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

[c.d.embrey]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

So we must ask who would benefit from a full frame camera with a sensor resolution in the 40 MP+ range? Landscape photographers generally stop down for greater depth of field and so would encounter diffraction limitation. Sports and wildlife photographers need fast shutter speeds and so would appreciate a sensor with a higher signal to noise ratio. So that leaves portrait /event photographers who can't afford a medium format camera. With the new budget entrants into the medium format market, Canon and Nikon will find that there is even greater pressure on the prices they can charge for their flagship camera.

Many Photojournalists use CaNikon Pro Bodies. Many Editorial photographers use CaNikon Pro Bodies. Many Advertising shooters use CaNikon Pro Bodies. Why aren't they part of your list???

BTW Diffraction Limitations are a bigger deal to Pixel Peeper than it is to Pro Photographers.

 

[traveller]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Fair points Mr Embrey, I didn't realise that my list was meant to be exhaustive. I am sure that there are groups of photographers that would value the added resolution at large apertures and low ISO. The point is that the list becomes smaller and smaller as the resolution goes up.

BTW diffraction limitations are a bigger deal to those who want to make larger prints from their digital captures. If the laws of physics prevent you capturing more detail with a given lens/sensor format combination, why continue to increase pixel count?

 

[spam]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

According to dpreview tests the Canon 20D (and 30D) has horizontal/vertical resolution of 1850/1650 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS20D/page27.asp).

The corresponding numbers for Canon 7d are 2500/2450 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos7d/page28.asp)

This is around 35% improvement (linear) for horisontal resolution (and slightly better for vertical)

The 20D/30D has exactly the same pixel density as 1Ds Mk III and 5D Mk II (but a smaller sensor) and it would be reasonable to expect the same gain from a full frame sensor with 7D pixel denisty (18MP*2,6 which comes out to around 47MP).

So, anyone happy with 7D image quality should certainly welcome a higher resolution full frame sensor.

 

[peejay]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

a 22MP 5d III would be fine. Just make the colour, tonality and dynamic range better please.

 

[hiplnsdrftr]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

I am in fact a professional photographer. I use 5D2 and 1Ds3... thats the limit of file size I want to deal with. Already, the hard drive space is kinda out of control!

As much as I would love to use the new gear... i dont think I would upgrade due to the trouble of trying to store and handle the amount of drive space.

Just one of my jobs is about 7000 photos.

 

[nocojoe]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

First of all, I am not in the market for Canon's 1D line, but i do have a 5D classic and I am looking to upgrade it. I shoot some portraits and landscapes, so diffraction limitation is something that interests me. And from some of the examples i have seen of the 7D when the shots get above f14 or so, it starts to worry me especially if I have a large print to make.

Anyway, I hope that if Canon wants to push the megapixels more that it comes out with some sort of MF type camera to really get a nice IQ.

 

[victorengel]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

This seems compatible with my analysis here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=36434409

It would be nice to have a camera where sraw2 was 10-12 megapixels. That would mean full raw is 40-48 megapixels. Sraw1 is just a fake raw format. By that I mean it is interpolated.

 

[blufox]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

We do not need a MP horse race result with Full frames.
If canon/nikon are so interested in jacking up MP, please go ahead by all means but then please manufacture MF sensors for that.

Full frame with 21MP is just fine, all we want is better ISO image, better dynamic range and good tonality.

Sigh... I will be dissapointed if Canikon produces a 30+ MP full frame with bad ISO performance.

 

[tzalmagor]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

The new EF 8-15mm f/4 lens, which is supposedly the fisheye lens for APS-C sensors, will cost about twice as much the older FF fisheye, I tend to think the first option is wrong.

You've just been complaining about poor quality EF-S lenses, then go on to complain about expensive ones. Quality costs, maybe Canon has decided to produce a good one?

Reducing things to black and white (usually sign of malice or having a blond moment) tends to produce ridiculus results the original writer did not intend.

To give an example, Canon's EF 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM costs >$1,500, and it's replacement would probably be even more expensive. This means I would buy the Sigma 150-500mm lens for $1,000.

This is not because Canon is incapable of producing non-L zoom to compete with the Sigma in focal length & price, but because Canon's policy is to produce either cheap EF-S lenses (in this case ending in 250mm) or expensive L zooms, creating a hole in it's lenses line.

 

[spam]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

The new EF 8-15mm f/4 lens, which is supposedly the fisheye lens for APS-C sensors, will cost about twice as much the older FF fisheye, I tend to think the first option is wrong.

You've just been complaining about poor quality EF-S lenses, then go on to complain about expensive ones. Quality costs, maybe Canon has decided to produce a good one?

Reducing things to black and white (usually sign of malice or having a blond moment) tends to produce ridiculus results the original writer did not intend.

To give an example, Canon's EF 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM costs >$1,500, and it's replacement would probably be even more expensive. This means I would buy the Sigma 150-500mm lens for $1,000.

This is not because Canon is incapable of producing non-L zoom to compete with the Sigma in focal length & price, but because Canon's policy is to produce either cheap EF-S lenses (in this case ending in 250mm) or expensive L zooms, creating a hole in it's lenses line.

I agree with the 100-400 example. Something reasonably good with more than 300mm, preferably in the 400-500mm range would be nice. However, Canon has the range from around 18 to 300mm covered with both cheap and mid level lenses, By cheap one I mean 18-55 (IS), 55-200, 55-250 IS and the cheapest 75-300. Mid range is 15-85 IS, 17-55 IS and 70-300 IS and 70-200 L (non-IS). Below 18mm they could add something cheaper than the 10-22, but I'm not sure how cheap it would get, even Sigmas least expenisve 10-20mm isn't that inexpensive.

 

[hsmeets]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Excellent points. The articles are over my head, but trusting their analysis, we can hope that the camera makers will see this 'wall' coming and not try to smash through it for some marketing reason.

I guess "pixels sell" is the photographic version of "sex sells".

Looking at myself, my photography and my current camera and printer: I basically came to the conclusion that anything that is reasonably priced (around € 2000), offers 20 - 24mpx, is usable up to 1600iso, can do 5 to 7 fps, basically covers my wants/needs for many many years to come. And those 24mpx are more or less just to get passed the "reasonable doubt" and nothing else.

There are camera's today that fit my bill, but as 2011 seems to bring new ones and iI'm not in a hurry i'll wait and see what 2011 will bring. And then will not buy a new camera for maybe 10, 15 years (bar a total-loss defect).

Reading of customer that stop buying every camera thrown at them must be scaring the shit out of manufacturers.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the logic that says a 5D Mark III needs to be released before a new flagship camera.

Wouldn't Canon want the new flagship to showcase the latest and greatest technology? The 5D seems to still be pretty well positioned in the market now, so why rush to replace it?

Not pretending to have any special insight, but it seems at least as likely that Canon would unveil a new flagship and leave the 5D Mark II out there for awhile.

 

[Justin]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Canon must refresh the 5D soon. Nikon will steal more market share without it. The 5d af and fps are crippled. It makes just as much sense to release a new pro ff as it does a new flagship. In anycase what I wish canon would do is remove the AA filter and focus on DR. 5-6 fps is great and 19-45 pt AF with the zones of the 7d will be expected.

Other than that we need more lens updates.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the logic that says a 5D Mark III needs to be released before a new flagship camera.

Wouldn't Canon want the new flagship to showcase the latest and greatest technology? The 5D seems to still be pretty well positioned in the market now, so why rush to replace it?

Not pretending to have any special insight, but it seems at least as likely that Canon would unveil a new flagship and leave the 5D Mark II out there for awhile.

 

[rejames1]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

 

[kubelik]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

lots of speculation going on about that already. everybody's ideal scenario is that it costs as much as the 5D Mark II did on release: $2699. there is some precedent for this possibility, given that the 5DII cost less than the original 5D on release.

however, given the pricing trends of the latest batches of canon lenses, and the state of the yen-dollar exchange rate, it does seem a little optimistic. clearly, the price also depends on how revolutionary the camera is in terms of specs and tech (which would relate back to how high a price Canon feels it needs to set in order to recoup R+D costs).

I'm expecting it to drop for $3000 to $3300. we've seen estimates by others on this forum that range as high as $4K. I'm willing to bet it will fall in that overall range, between $2700 and $4000, but definitely leaning more toward the 3 grand amount, rather than the high end.

 

[spam]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

It will depend on so many factors that it's impossible to say, including what the competiton do. Right now there isn't much direct competition. The Sony A850/A900 is closest with higher resolution, but no video mode. D700 has only 12MP, but is otherwise a better camera. I'd expect Canon to increase pixel count, and improve frames per second and AF slightly. They might base it on either 7D or 60D, personally I'd guess 60D and it would be great if they could get a FF into that body. Given these parameters I'd guess a price a bit over 7D, somewhere in the $2000-$2500 range depending on how much of the 7D they use.

 

[spam]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

lots of speculation going on about that already. everybody's ideal scenario is that it costs as much as the 5D Mark II did on release: $2699. there is some precedent for this possibility, given that the 5DII cost less than the original 5D on release.

Almost all models so far has started cheaper or worst case same price as the previous one did.

 

[kubelik]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

lots of speculation going on about that already. everybody's ideal scenario is that it costs as much as the 5D Mark II did on release: $2699. there is some precedent for this possibility, given that the 5DII cost less than the original 5D on release.

that would make me hugely happy if the 5DIII clocked in below $2699 ... to the point that I would consider upgrading immediately

Almost all models so far have started cheaper or worst case same price as the previous one did.

 

[ronderick]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

Anyone care to speculate on what the initial $ might be on a 5d III body?

lots of speculation going on about that already. everybody's ideal scenario is that it costs as much as the 5D Mark II did on release: $2699. there is some precedent for this possibility, given that the 5DII cost less than the original 5D on release.

that would make me hugely happy if the 5DIII clocked in below $2699 ... to the point that I would consider upgrading immediately

Almost all models so far has started cheaper or worst case same price as the previous one did.

I think that the 5DIII will remain at the same price range as the previous models, simply because there's too many competitors in the same block (aka D700-next-gen).

Profit? They problably regain it through those updated-and-expenseive lenses. ;D

I think if Canon can fix the AF (at least on par with one in the 7D) and boost the viewfinder's coverage to 100-percent, it would be an ideal FF model for most people. While FPS may be a bit slow, I could live with it if it maintains the high MP count.

 

[Stuart]

Re: Canon & Nikon Flagships in 2011

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

About lenses and sensors.

What I understand from this is that in daily practice shooting at f8, f11, a sensor like the one as in the 5Dm2 starts to out resolve lenses.

So all this improvement is just for better cropping / digital zooming?