Canon prevents me from buying the 7D Mark II

[Harv]

The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating

So it's ok upgrading the camera even if you already have two very good ones - but not upgrading a an old OS (released in 2007), the only one unanimously regarded worse than Windows 8?

From a developer perspective, there are many new features which became available only from 7 onwards (i.e. better support for high DPI displays, color management). while Vista market share is only around 3%, making the effort to support it not so appealing.

If your software runs on Vista 64, it will run on 8 and 7 as well (you can downgrade your OS but with some OEM licenses). LR is still available as a standalone product outside CC. Scroll to the end of the page, and you'll find a link to buy LIghtroom 5 standalone. It won't run on Vista too, anyway.

Today the digital workflow is not the camera only - software plays its role as well. Complaining because we can't use the latest camera on outdated OS looks a bit unfair to me. I understand we all prefer to spend money on the toys we like most and not on something we may regard as "not so imporant", but sometimes we need to accept realilty.

I understand what you are saying. If you look back a few comments, you'll see I have decided to build a new computer. This thread has been very enlightening. The new computer is at the top of my list now.

 

[LDS]

You'd have to lay out some money but have you considered virtualization? A virtualization environment is one

Virtualization is the last thing you should consider when image quality is your aim. Virtualization usually menas your expensive video card(s) are not used directly by the best OS driver written by the video card maker, but trough some software layer. It could also impact monitor calibration, etc.

For imaging, forget virtualization and use your main OS - but for running non imaging software which for any reason can't be run on the main OS.

 

[dstppy]

You'd have to lay out some money but have you considered virtualization? A virtualization environment is one

Virtualization is the last thing you should consider when image quality is your aim. Virtualization usually menas your expensive video card(s) are not used directly by the best OS driver written by the video card maker, but trough some software layer. It could also impact monitor calibration, etc.

For imaging, forget virtualization and use your main OS - but for running non imaging software which for any reason can't be run on the main OS.

+10

If anything, I would say use 2 HDD (Hybrid SSD/HDD are a good compromise price wise). Put OS & programs on Disk 1, Put all settings/storage on disk 2 (workspaces, that sort of thing). Every two years, make up your mind to either upgrade the OS (clean install) or do a clean install of your existing OS.

Even macs get bogged down over time. Last few machines, I did manual settings migration; the machine is much faster/cleaner.

 

[danski0224]

What are the advantages of a PS/2 port these days?

You'll know when you can't get into BIOS with a USB keyboard

 

[scottkinfw]

Why not get a Mac?

You will love it compared to Vista.

Sek

I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.

I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.

Here is my problem with that.....

The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating system requires that I go to Windows 8 which needs a clean install. Huge job. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of my current software will run on Windows 8. I have CS4 as well as plugins such as NIK, Neat Image and a slew of other free standing applications.

As much as I was not comfortable with the user interface of Lightroom when I tried a demo last year, I thought I would now have to go that route. Guess what? Right. It's now only available under CC and I refuse to rent software on a monthly fee basis which is why I still run CS4.

I'm 72 years old so I guess my 1D4 and 5D3 will have to do me the rest of my life or until my computer cr@ps out and I have no choice.

All Canon had to do was continue to support the operating system and I would have added a 7D2 to my bag.

Okay..... rant over.

 

[RLPhoto]

I have been a Canon user my entire life. I love the product, including DPP which is my RAW converter of choice.

I presently shoot with a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III, which are fully supported by my present version of DPP. The 7D Mark II requires that I update my DPP.

Here is my problem with that.....

The newer version of DPP does not support my operating system. I run Vista 64. Updating my operating system requires that I go to Windows 8 which needs a clean install. Huge job. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of my current software will run on Windows 8. I have CS4 as well as plugins such as NIK, Neat Image and a slew of other free standing applications.

As much as I was not comfortable with the user interface of Lightroom when I tried a demo last year, I thought I would now have to go that route. Guess what? Right. It's now only available under CC and I refuse to rent software on a monthly fee basis which is why I still run CS4.

I'm 72 years old so I guess my 1D4 and 5D3 will have to do me the rest of my life or until my computer cr@ps out and I have no choice.

All Canon had to do was continue to support the operating system and I would have added a 7D2 to my bag.

Okay..... rant over.

sounds like a good time to switch to apple

i was a long time windows user and bought the mac due to superior build
still ran windows via bootcamp for a few years while i adjusted to it now i still have windows 7 via parallels for
the very rare occasion i need it but now i could imagine going back to a windows os

it did take me a couple of years and lots of swear words at apple to get used to mac os though so its not as straight forward as the marketing BS suggests. And every time i hear someone say mac just works i want to stab them. As macs do crash and although far less frequently than windows but its usually a spectacularly annoying crash when it does happen.

I have used windows 8 on my parents computer and it really is so badly made i just want to throw the thing out the window its that frustrating.

I did the exact opposite. I dumped apple in 06 because of them being like apple is. Out date the hardware and software over a short period of time forcing users to buy new machines. IE: G5 iMac users at the time when apple moved to intel.

OSX is free now but before adobe and apple have this thing where the newest abode software required the newest OSX, which meant another reason I'd have to get a new machine just to run new version of PS. For what reason? I saw windows users being supported for XP for eons but 10.4 tiger now lacked support?

I knew of a print shop still running CS2 creative suite because he bought a slew of G5 Imacs but didn't want to upgrade because now he'd have to buy all new machines. He eventually moved to win7 machines and never looked back knowing he'll get software support for years.

Apertures user got left hanging, FCP X had a backlash, Mac pro users no longer can use PCI peripherals internally anymore (pro audio cards) and now have to buy external solutions, and the list goes on and on.

However, OSX is a very beautiful OS. It's fast and efficient but so is win 7. For me, I loved apples design of software and hardware together for a time but now they dropped the software part for professional users. What's the point?

BUT, you must admit the IBM -> Intel switch was a one-time thing. The only people that say you have to upgrade is your software vendors. When Apple got rid of Rosetta, they finally had a fully 64-bit OS. The biggest complaint about windows about people who understand what is going on under the hood (other than the fact that the registry even exists) is that there's so much legacy garbage moving forward.

Honestly, if the shops had even tried to upgrade those G5s when the new hardware came out and sell the old, the transition wouldn't have cost that much; it's not the same thing as 'investing' in PCs. First of all, we're talking 2005; if they're high end ones and still working, they are still worth around $200.

For a business (and even at home) it's not a one-time purchase. If you need high-end machines, you're better off either leasing or building your own and constantly swapping out parts when new technology comes out, that way you can sell 'last years' model for a nominal difference. Macs are like High-End video cards: there's a used market and the value drop is pretty predictable.

The problem is, even in the company that I work, they don't treat hardware as a rotating cost, and use older equipment until it literally dies, then sometimes repair it. If they were to analyze productivity loss over the years, they'd realize that keeping hardware at the front of the curve is much cheaper than using it until it dies.

Wintel machines are simply cheaper, run just as good or better, and don't have the BS apple and their devs have for the abandonware for older OSes. Not saying that wintel machines haven't had abandonware but I you can't say that Microsoft is as bad as apple in ditching there support for previous OSes or devs for ditching older releases of windows. It'd be financial suicide to not make software for Windows 7 being now it's replacing XP in market share. Which is great for me the end user because I know my software will be supported for years.

In short, apple lost me years ago. I see no reason to return.

 

[GmwDarkroom]

How's Vista garbage? People didn't like it because computers were not powerful enough to run it smoothly. Run it on a new recently released computer and it will fly.

1. Slow boot times compared to XP, 7 & 8 on like hardware.
2. Worse security than 7 & 8. I shouldn't even need to mention UAC in Vista, but obviously I will. It should conjure a commercial with Justin Long and John Hodgman in your head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs)
3. Atrocious gaming performance.
4. Similarly criminal battery usage on laptops.
5. The driver landscape is somewhat worse since that was the first OS that Microsoft enforced User Mode and Kernel Mode drivers forcing hardware manufacturers to hastily redo their support. However most devices that have Win 7 or 8 drivers can use those drivers in Vista, so this is more of an older hardware problem.

As to Win 7 vs 8, there are some benefits, especially now that you can boot directly to the desktop and skip the whatever-they're-calling-the-touch-interface-this-week. Notably backups, drive mirroring, and file history (essentially version control) is a snap and works really well.

You'll know when you can't get into BIOS with a USB keyboard

There isn't a single BIOS on a motherboard made in the last 4-5 years that doesn't natively support USB mouse and keyboard natively (i.e. during POST). The only situation where this would not be true is someone having disabled USB in the BIOS or a faulty device -- the latter of which would mean you weren't going to be doing anything anyway. If the former is true, a simple reset will solve the problem.

The PS/2 port really just needs to be thrown on the techno trash heap with PCI, 15-pin VGA, and IDE to keep AGP, ISA, and IEEE 1284 ports company.

 

[dstppy]

I did the exact opposite. I dumped apple in 06 because of them being like apple is. Out date the hardware and software over a short period of time forcing users to buy new machines. IE: G5 iMac users at the time when apple moved to intel.

OSX is free now but before adobe and apple have this thing where the newest abode software required the newest OSX, which meant another reason I'd have to get a new machine just to run new version of PS. For what reason? I saw windows users being supported for XP for eons but 10.4 tiger now lacked support?

I knew of a print shop still running CS2 creative suite because he bought a slew of G5 Imacs but didn't want to upgrade because now he'd have to buy all new machines. He eventually moved to win7 machines and never looked back knowing he'll get software support for years.

Apertures user got left hanging, FCP X had a backlash, Mac pro users no longer can use PCI peripherals internally anymore (pro audio cards) and now have to buy external solutions, and the list goes on and on.

However, OSX is a very beautiful OS. It's fast and efficient but so is win 7. For me, I loved apples design of software and hardware together for a time but now they dropped the software part for professional users. What's the point?

BUT, you must admit the IBM -> Intel switch was a one-time thing. The only people that say you have to upgrade is your software vendors. When Apple got rid of Rosetta, they finally had a fully 64-bit OS. The biggest complaint about windows about people who understand what is going on under the hood (other than the fact that the registry even exists) is that there's so much legacy garbage moving forward.

Honestly, if the shops had even tried to upgrade those G5s when the new hardware came out and sell the old, the transition wouldn't have cost that much; it's not the same thing as 'investing' in PCs. First of all, we're talking 2005; if they're high end ones and still working, they are still worth around $200.

For a business (and even at home) it's not a one-time purchase. If you need high-end machines, you're better off either leasing or building your own and constantly swapping out parts when new technology comes out, that way you can sell 'last years' model for a nominal difference. Macs are like High-End video cards: there's a used market and the value drop is pretty predictable.

The problem is, even in the company that I work, they don't treat hardware as a rotating cost, and use older equipment until it literally dies, then sometimes repair it. If they were to analyze productivity loss over the years, they'd realize that keeping hardware at the front of the curve is much cheaper than using it until it dies.

Wintel machines are simply cheaper, run just as good or better, and don't have the BS apple and their devs have for the abandonware for older OSes. Not saying that wintel machines haven't had abandonware but I you can't say that Microsoft is as bad as apple in ditching there support for previous OSes or devs for ditching older releases of windows. It'd be financial suicide to not make software for Windows 7 being now it's replacing XP in market share. Which is great for me the end user because I know my software will be supported for years.

In short, apple lost me years ago. I see no reason to return.
[/quote]

I have no contention that you are lost, nor that you should return. Just that this is no reason that anyone should avoid Apple.

No, Windows is never cheaper. You buy a machine that's not going to be miserable to use in one year, and you're starting at $1000 -- every time I look at the cost of a new machine, I consider the switch to Linux, then spec myself up a $1600-$1800 and see there's no real savings if I want to do large throughput. Good hardware is the staple of a box.

Abandonware as you call it is what it is -- crappy developers wanting to one-off and not have an actual product. Mavericks, love it or hate it, got rid of a lot of crapware. No one wanted to deal with Sandboxing, but that is one bridge EVERY OS manufacturer has to build, cross and burn. Developers that assume they will always be able to have write access to system areas are just lazy.

After I really moved to a Mac, figured what I could and couldn't live without and got used to it, it actually became much clearer:
When you buy a machine (Windows, Mac, Linux), only use (install) what software is absolutely necessary, your OS won't suffer as much, and your user experience will be much cleaner. I have arguments at work all the time with vendors that insist we must "install" something on the Windows boxes. Since adopting those policies, Win7 has been almost as good as the macs (though nothing as reliable as Linux, which has it's issues with inflexibility).

 

[Steve]

No, Windows is never cheaper.

Ahahahahahaha

I built my windows machine for $600 including SSD, processor, MB, RAM and video card. I didn't use bleeding edge components but it can do anything I can throw at it, fast. Granted, I had some components from my previous build but that's part of the cost savings of upgrading. Even without that, you can get a ripper bare bones system for under $1000 that will do virtually anything you want it to. A comparable Apple system will cost you 2-3 times as much for the priviledge of a glossy white bezel. Unless you are doing a ton of video or 3D rendering or some such, there is no reason for anyone to absolutely pay for the top end current system and no reason at all to pay a premium for style.

 

[dstppy]

No, Windows is never cheaper.

Ahahahahahaha

I built my windows machine for $600 including SSD, processor, MB, RAM and video card. I didn't use bleeding edge components but it can do anything I can throw at it, fast. Granted, I had some components from my previous build but that's part of the cost savings of upgrading. Even without that, you can get a ripper bare bones system for under $1000 that will do virtually anything you want it to. A comparable Apple system will cost you 2-3 times as much for the priviledge of a glossy white bezel. Unless you are doing a ton of video or 3D rendering or some such, there is no reason for anyone to absolutely pay for the top end current system and no reason at all to pay a premium for style.

AFAIK, bezels are all black, if they have them

I meant you pay it all back, every bit, in time, troubleshooting or virus scans, but you can take it at face value, tell me: what were the Motherboard and processor brand/specs? Video card?

I'm guessing you are, in reality, choking at the bus, meaning you're not getting your full worth out of the SSD speed and a Hybrid drive's speeds would suffice. Ran into that with lower-end macs/PCs. When you group-process a set of 300 RAW in LR (not really a huge load), that's when you start hitting transfer limits and slowdown starts. I'm sure what you've got will do that fine enough, but push it beyond that where there's a lot of read/write going on and you'll see what I'm talking about (or not, if you're just going to go the route of saying that anyone buys one for it's bezel).

The two 'over-charge' in Macs is that:
1) they use laptop components, which are, yes, smaller, but more expensive
2) The monitor because it's built-in, not as high-end as the highest-end IPS monitors, but better than the $175 ones you get

If you take the entire post I had at face value, you'll see that the argument that savings on cheap hardware is paid back somewhere else, usually in user time.

 

[RLPhoto]

No, Windows is never cheaper.

Ahahahahahaha

I built my windows machine for $600 including SSD, processor, MB, RAM and video card. I didn't use bleeding edge components but it can do anything I can throw at it, fast. Granted, I had some components from my previous build but that's part of the cost savings of upgrading. Even without that, you can get a ripper bare bones system for under $1000 that will do virtually anything you want it to. A comparable Apple system will cost you 2-3 times as much for the priviledge of a glossy white bezel. Unless you are doing a ton of video or 3D rendering or some such, there is no reason for anyone to absolutely pay for the top end current system and no reason at all to pay a premium for style.

AFAIK, bezels are all black, if they have them

I meant you pay it all back, every bit, in time, troubleshooting or virus scans, but you can take it at face value, tell me: what were the Motherboard and processor brand/specs? Video card?

I'm guessing you are, in reality, choking at the bus, meaning you're not getting your full worth out of the SSD speed and a Hybrid drive's speeds would suffice. Ran into that with lower-end macs/PCs. When you group-process a set of 300 RAW in LR (not really a huge load), that's when you start hitting transfer limits and slowdown starts. I'm sure what you've got will do that fine enough, but push it beyond that where there's a lot of read/write going on and you'll see what I'm talking about (or not, if you're just going to go the route of saying that anyone buys one for it's bezel).

The two 'over-charge' in Macs is that:
1) they use laptop components, which are, yes, smaller, but more expensive
2) The monitor because it's built-in, not as high-end as the highest-end IPS monitors, but better than the $175 ones you get

If you take the entire post I had at face value, you'll see that the argument that savings on cheap hardware is paid back somewhere else, usually in user time.

I built a 3k system a year ago that is as fast as when I built it. It scores just as high or higher than the equivalent mac pro, that I got to use a year before it was released, has 64gb of ram, 10TB of storage and will be future proof for at least 4 years. Now even more important, is that the software I have will still be able to be used in 4 years from now and win 7 provides me that. The only down time it's ever had was when I moved it to another room.

Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.

 

[Mitch.Conner]

Does this mean around the time the 5D4 comes around well have to have Windows 8 or beyond?

I'm using Windows 7, so I guess I could get a 7D2 to complement my 5D3 for the extra reach and speed, but I have no desire to upgrade to Windows 8 ever -- I was just going to wait until Windows 10 (they're skipping 9) has been out a while and the kinks ironed out before upgrading.

 

[dstppy]

Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.

I've got no problems with 2008 iMac and Mavericks . . . did you read any of the other parts of my posts?

1) Hardware matters, get good hardware
2) Don't put crap software on your computer and it won't bog down

I wasn't crapping on Win7, just stating that it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. *sigh*

 

[RLPhoto]

Macs are indeed more expensive, they do break, and when they do break parts are more expensive. Good luck with your software running 4 years from now, IE: let's see if cs6 will be running on whatever OSX apple releases then but I know for sure it will still be supported on Microsoft win X release by then.

I've got no problems with 2008 iMac and Mavericks . . . did you read any of the other parts of my posts?

1) Hardware matters, get good hardware
2) Don't put crap software on your computer and it won't bog down

I wasn't crapping on Win7, just stating that it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. *sigh*

The issue is running software not built for the new release. For example, I have an old copy of parallels for osx 10.4 on disk I had to run XP. I'm positive that I couldn't run that on the new osx mav without having to buy a new parallels again. I also have a copy of filemaker pro 7 that I'm positive won't work on mavericks either and I'd have to buy new software.

This is a virtual non issue with win 7. I can use legacy software if I need to and not have to buy another copy. I have a copy of Office 2003 that I still run! Because I for the small amount of office work and .xls sheets I do, it works fine. This goes for Adobe's legacy CS suite and many other programs I paid good money for.

 

[Steve]

Does this mean around the time the 5D4 comes around well have to have Windows 8 or beyond?

That's very unlikely.

I'm guessing you are, in reality, choking at the bus, meaning you're not getting your full worth out of the SSD speed and a Hybrid drive's speeds would suffice. Ran into that with lower-end macs/PCs. When you group-process a set of 300 RAW in LR (not really a huge load), that's when you start hitting transfer limits and slowdown starts. I'm sure what you've got will do that fine enough, but push it beyond that where there's a lot of read/write going on and you'll see what I'm talking about (or not, if you're just going to go the route of saying that anyone buys one for it's bezel).

There are always chokepoints in any system. My processor, MB and vid card are all a few years old yet I have enough processing power to do anything I want in PS, Bridge, DPP, etc with almost no slowdown. I can play any modern PC game at Ultra settings with minimal load times. I also didn't have to spend an additional $1-2k for processing advantages measured in fractions of a second. Computer people always oversell the advantages of bleeding edge systems when 99.9% of users don't need that kind of processing power.

PC's are definitely cheaper. I can upgrade my processor and MB on my PC desktop in a few years for a fraction of the cost of buying a brand new Mac, a fraction with a decently large denominator. If my vid card starts lacking, I can yank it and put in a new one, or better yet, a year old discounted model that's 98% as good but half the cost. Need more RAM? Not a problem. I haven't run anti-virus software on my PC in maybe 8 years? Number of viruses - 0. I just make sure not to install every bit of malware that tells me my computer might be infected with ebola or satan or whatever. I can run any program I want and not pay a premium for stylish design.

 

[danski0224]

There isn't a single BIOS on a motherboard made in the last 4-5 years that doesn't natively support USB mouse and keyboard natively (i.e. during POST). The only situation where this would not be true is someone having disabled USB in the BIOS or a faulty device -- the latter of which would mean you weren't going to be doing anything anyway. If the former is true, a simple reset will solve the problem.

The PS/2 port really just needs to be thrown on the techno trash heap with PCI, 15-pin VGA, and IDE to keep AGP, ISA, and IEEE 1284 ports company.

Well, I had problems with a USB keyboard working during POST, and nothing was disabled. Keyboard would not power up until after POST, and everything in BIOS was enabled to try and prevent the problem.

Internet searches to solve the problem led to others with similar issues.

It may not be common, but it does happen.

Yes, it could have been a keyboard compatibility issue. I didn't have another one to try out.