Canon Says it’s up to Sigma to Make Full-Frame RF Lenses

You either believe that it's Sigma's responsibility that we do not have Sigma's FF AF lenses for RF, or you don't.
Based on public knowledge I have access to, I don't.
I'm happy to be corrected, as long as new facts are unveiled.
Obviously I'm Team Canon in terms of gear.

BUT

The camera bodies after the R6 and R5 did kill a number of EF lenses from third parties. In some cases, these EF lenses simply confirmed focus and reported lens data, such as the IRIX lenses. I doubt very much that the EF instruction set changed for any technical reason in the R6 II / R5 II / R3 / R1 and so am inclined to believe Canon scuttled those lenses despite being yesteryear tech. It very much would necessitate upgrades to new Canon specific lenses and probably raise the ire of customers against the third parties. Then, RF mount adaptations of EF lenses from various Chinese manufactures "disappeared" along with their support.

It's really, really hard to not believe that, at a minimum, Canon is being deliberately antagonistic.

A company like Sigma is probably established enough that the game between them and Canon is somewhat gentlemanly and thus for whatever set of reasons to them there are now Sigma lenses for the RF crop sensor. But, I doubt other than engineering for 35mm projection across 20mm of air for the flange distance (Sony has 18mm of air) there's not much else left for Sigma to do for FF, other than make Canon happy. In fact, I'm starting to think the primary motivation for Canon's allowance for the Sigma crop lenses is simply to sidestep antitrust, as informed by my own corporate work.

Unless Canon or Sigma is very specific in their statement, history suggests the FF electronic lenses from third parties are de facto blocked, regardless of the legal or financial disincentives being used.

But I think the true disgruntlement here is that Canon has not produced a full line for quality mid-tier offerings for a focal range that matches the EF options over the 1990s and 2000s at equivalent pricing. There are steps in that direction, like the 200-800 which is an excellent compromise lens by all accounts. VCM is kinda-sorta in that direction, tech great but cost meh. More is needed to be done. And that pinch makes people look at Sigma, which is an excellent third party example of what can be done, and go... man, I wish I had some of those options in the middle.

If we just sit here and talk the best of the best, then Canon has delivered on all accounts. And priced accordingly. But if we talk great yet competent at hobbyist levels of abuse and engagement then there are huge holes in the lineup compared to what was before in terms of both cost and capability.

I think there's hope. At 6-8 lenses a year, there's room for mid-tier excellence to come into being at reasonable prices. A perfect example I return to over and over is the 300mm f/4 L (IS and non-IS) — it offered 90% of the base 2.8 performance and 80% of the TC performance in a form and cost that allowed Canon and professionals to easily justify the 2.8 option while meeting the interests and wants of the well heeled hobbyists. More of this is needed. Sigma gives that to Sony and Nikon. Does it matter who gives it to Canon? No. But Canon has only very reluctantly shown an interest in doing that in-house for FF up to this point in RF despite making oodles of cash.

It's valid for Canon enthusiasts to stand up and say that they've noticed and its starting to move from annoying to semi-insulting. It's been almost eight years since the RF mount was released. Mid-tier L was well established at the long end by then for EF.
 
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This is really interesting, didn’t know this! I’m still using the original R and really starting to see it lag behind newer cameras. It’s held up pretty well until the last couple of years but an upgrade is definitely on the horizon soon. This explains a lot.

You saw the name of the author - Roué, debauched.
Roue' rather stands for cunning, without scruple, or having "enjoyed" the breaking wheel punishment. :)
 
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Roue' rather stands for cunning, without scruple, or having "enjoyed" the breaking wheel punishment. :)
I deleted the original post before I had seen you had replied, sorry. Over here, we use the debauched definition: Oxford Dictionary
Definition of roué noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

roué​

noun

/ˈruːeɪ/


/ruːˈeɪ/
(old-fashioned)
a man who behaves badly, especially by drinking a lot of alcohol, having many sexual relationships, etc.
 
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I deleted the original post before I had seen you had replied, sorry. Over here, we use the debauched definition: Oxford Dictionary
Definition of roué noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

roué​

noun

/ˈruːeɪ/


/ruːˈeɪ/
(old-fashioned)
a man who behaves badly, especially by drinking a lot of alcohol, having many sexual relationships, etc.
Very brave of you to explain this to @Del Paso who confuses MILC’s with MILF’s 🤣.
 
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Very brave of you to explain this to @Del Paso who confuses MILC’s with MILF’s 🤣.
I rely on @Del Paso for his explanation of events the side of the English Channel, but he will call it la Manche. So, it's like minds separated by a dispute over the name of a stretch of water, and our use of French.;)
 
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Canon execs are well practiced in giving vague non-answers, so there is no reason for them to flat out lie.
If the Canon exec wants to deflect blame from Canon that would be a reason, won't it?
And since i had the misfortune to watch several speeches of a certain president in the not so distant past, i know people can lie and even contradict themselves in the same speech without any rhyme or reason.

So not having a reason is no evidence it did not happen.
 
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Obviously I'm Team Canon in terms of gear.

BUT

The camera bodies after the R6 and R5 did kill a number of EF lenses from third parties. In some cases, these EF lenses simply confirmed focus and reported lens data, such as the IRIX lenses. I doubt very much that the EF instruction set changed for any technical reason in the R6 II / R5 II / R3 / R1 and so am inclined to believe Canon scuttled those lenses despite being yesteryear tech. It very much would necessitate upgrades to new Canon specific lenses and probably raise the ire of customers against the third parties. Then, RF mount adaptations of EF lenses from various Chinese manufactures "disappeared" along with their support.

It's really, really hard to not believe that, at a minimum, Canon is being deliberately antagonistic.

A company like Sigma is probably established enough that the game between them and Canon is somewhat gentlemanly and thus for whatever set of reasons to them there are now Sigma lenses for the RF crop sensor. But, I doubt other than engineering for 35mm projection across 20mm of air for the flange distance (Sony has 18mm of air) there's not much else left for Sigma to do for FF, other than make Canon happy. In fact, I'm starting to think the primary motivation for Canon's allowance for the Sigma crop lenses is simply to sidestep antitrust, as informed by my own corporate work.

Unless Canon or Sigma is very specific in their statement, history suggests the FF electronic lenses from third parties are de facto blocked, regardless of the legal or financial disincentives being used.

But I think the true disgruntlement here is that Canon has not produced a full line for quality mid-tier offerings for a focal range that matches the EF options over the 1990s and 2000s at equivalent pricing. There are steps in that direction, like the 200-800 which is an excellent compromise lens by all accounts. VCM is kinda-sorta in that direction, tech great but cost meh. More is needed to be done. And that pinch makes people look at Sigma, which is an excellent third party example of what can be done, and go... man, I wish I had some of those options in the middle.

If we just sit here and talk the best of the best, then Canon has delivered on all accounts. And priced accordingly. But if we talk great yet competent at hobbyist levels of abuse and engagement then there are huge holes in the lineup compared to what was before in terms of both cost and capability.

I think there's hope. At 6-8 lenses a year, there's room for mid-tier excellence to come into being at reasonable prices. A perfect example I return to over and over is the 300mm f/4 L (IS and non-IS) — it offered 90% of the base 2.8 performance and 80% of the TC performance in a form and cost that allowed Canon and professionals to easily justify the 2.8 option while meeting the interests and wants of the well heeled hobbyists. More of this is needed. Sigma gives that to Sony and Nikon. Does it matter who gives it to Canon? No. But Canon has only very reluctantly shown an interest in doing that in-house for FF up to this point in RF despite making oodles of cash.

It's valid for Canon enthusiasts to stand up and say that they've noticed and its starting to move from annoying to semi-insulting. It's been almost eight years since the RF mount was released. Mid-tier L was well established at the long end by then for EF.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but for a niggle: I would not agree that
If we just sit here and talk the best of the best, then Canon has delivered on all accounts.
They started great with the 2(3) f/1.2 lenses and the f/2 zoom, they amazed with the R5/6 duo and the 100-300 and a few other great lenses (I am a sucker for the 100-500), but after, from my personal perspective (and no, rumors do not count):
  • No high res R1 / R3
  • No new exotics (ideally with built-in TC)
  • No TS lenses
  • And the real original sin: no 35 f/1.2 :ROFLMAO:
Of course I assume that eventually they will address those exactly or closely enough... but we'd get there faster if (e.g.) we could mount Sigma lenses on RF cameras. And of course these are my personal desires... so just change "all" to "some" or even "most" and we're good 😇
 
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Sure, and in terms of market cap, Canon is closer to Leica or Sigma than they are to Sony. Much, MUCH closer. Not entirely sure what the point is, of course.
He was talking about production capacity for cameras and lenses, which is very relevant to the topic at hand. Market cap…isn’t. But thanks for trying, at least you’re spot on about not getting the point. :rolleyes:
 
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That's the SLR era lens. It was excellent but is huge, heavy, and the AF is very slow by today's standards.

But yes, that lens is one of the reasons that so many people are waiting for Sigma to deliver a revised mirrorless-native version. Likewise for their 40/1.4 and 105/1.4. These were all very loved lenses but don't yet exist with new designs.
 
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"Ported" and being able to actually make enough are different things. A lens like the 135 f/1.4 would be a very difficult lens to make within tight tolerances. Sigma made nothing worth owning for most of the EF days. When they did start making things that were sort of nice there were already 100+ million EF lenses. Having worked directly with Gentec, I know how few lenses they sold in the grand scheme in at least one market (maybe 2). It was peanuts.

Demand increasing 30% is great, now you have to scale everything else 30%. There's a point in lots of businesses where the next step costs exponentially more than the previous one.

Take a company like Leica (yes, they do it different). They make 40 cameras a day. Major products usually take about a year to meet the demand. How much would it cost them to increase production to 60 a day? A boatload. Sigma is closer to Leica than they are to Canon. Leica's revenue is actually higher than Sigma's.
Agree it's not as simple as just ramping up production.

A similar scenario happens in the piano industry. Kawai make ABS-Carbon actions (Millennium III action) as they have the size to do the research and testing to ensure it's of sufficient quality to enable them to put into full production. Lots of the other elite piano makers just don't have the technology / research infrastructure in the background to swap to carbon so continue with wood. It's not that ABS-Carbon actions aren't good enough as Kawai use them in their top class pianos and have the advantage of needing less tuning as the carbon seldom changes whereas wood is affected far more due to changing environmental conditions during season shifts.
 
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Well, with that barrel diameter on the AI generated camera+lens image there should be no problem for Canon, as the barrel seems rather to small to fit the RF mount ....!!
I am not a super fan of AI generated images for that sort of things.

Edit: On second inspection it may not even be AI generated, but just a composite where lens and camera are not to scale??
 
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Well, with that barrel diameter on the AI generated camera+lens image there should be no problem for Canon, as the barrel seems rather to small to fit the RF mount ....!!
I am not a super fan of AI generated images for that sort of things.

Edit: On second inspection it may not even be AI generated, but just a composite where lens and camera are not to scale??
Are you talking about the big green thing in post #50?
A real lens, used to be the most expensive (apart from Canon's 1200 f/5.6 that is a rarity) but Canon's RF800/1200 make it look cheap.
 
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