Canon Talks 250mp APS-H Image Sensor at ISSCC

[Mt Spokane Photography]

This is obviously needed for those who want 16K Video.

 

[Pebbles]

@rithotz You mean like this one from a Canon Ambassador? http://rudgr.com/tag/canon-1dx2/

the camera has seen no improvement in dynamic range

 

[et31]

Let me guess...native ISO range: 100-400 (H1:800, H2:1,000) ;D
Marketing propaganda will say that it can shoot in low light environments. :

 

[privatebydesign]

So they can manage a 250MP Sensor but they can't manage to produce a Pro DSLR without crippled dynamic range. Genius.

So can you post us half a dozen of your personal images where you were crippled by the lack of dr in a Canon camera?

 

[9VIII]

Let me guess...native ISO range: 100-400 (H1:800, H2:1,000) ;D
Marketing propaganda will say that it can shoot in low light environments. :

Downsampling the 5Ds still gets good low light results, a 250MP sensor would be no different.

Basically your low light capabilities are still dependent on your output resolution, no matter what the native resolution.
Except the A7S can't give you high detail in good light, but no-one cares about image quality in good light anyway.

 

[Pebbles]

@privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.

 

[dak723]

@privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.

There is no doubt some folks feel the need for more DR. But in 12 years of shooting with Canon, I have always been able to lighten the shadows significantly and successfully in post. Having bought a Sony A7II to compare with the 6D, there was no noticeable difference in "actual" DR when shooting under normal conditions. Those of us that find the Canons perfectly acceptable do not have our heads in the sand, we are just not pixel peeping, over-post processing techno geeks.

 

[Pebbles]

@dak723 I am constantly stuck with the choice of clipping highlights or losing an unacceptable amount of detail in the shadows. That is just pragmatism. I am not pixel peeping or over post-processing. It's exactly to avoid spending more time in post that I need more dynamic range. Anyway this isn't what this thread should be about and I shouldn't have let my frustration with Canon's slow spiral turn into a snarky comment.

 

[Diltiazem]

The picture used in this report is not that of 250 MP sensor. It would have been nicer if CR used the right picture. It is available online.

http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep07e.html

 

[Sporgon]

Having bought a Sony A7II to compare with the 6D, there was no noticeable difference in "actual" DR when shooting under normal conditions.

Heresy ! Don't ever say such things on the Internet ! Also try to remember those who are less skilled than yourself: if you had under exposed your images by four or five stops and then tried to lift the resulting mess the Sony would probably have been a little better.

 

[Diltiazem]

@rithotz You mean like this one from a Canon Ambassador? http://rudgr.com/tag/canon-1dx2/

the camera has seen no improvement in dynamic range

Don't be so disheartened.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57265121

 

[x-vision]

Don't be so disheartened.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57265121

Heh. Finally clean shadows from a Canon sensor!

 

[gregory4000]

@privatebydesign I often have to bracket and blend in post because I need an extra couple of stops. And yes I shoot as base ISO and pull back as much as I can from the RAW. Can you honestly pretend it isn't an issue? It's just like all the Apple fanboys claiming they didn't want or need a bigger iPhone until one was available and then all buying one. You have your head in the sand my friend.

There is no doubt some folks feel the need for more DR. But in 12 years of shooting with Canon, I have always been able to lighten the shadows significantly and successfully in post. Having bought a Sony A7II to compare with the 6D, there was no noticeable difference in "actual" DR when shooting under normal conditions. Those of us that find the Canons perfectly acceptable do not have our heads in the sand, we are just not pixel peeping, over-post processing techno geeks.

For many photographers on this site, the DR on Canon sensors are fine. But hell, most individuals use a cell phone for their photos. The only reason any of us shoot with DSLR's is because we want more?
I love Canon, But I don't shoot only with Canon.
Why? Because in some areas their sensor has weakness. The Canon 1Dxii will smoke competitors for speed and focusing, its a great camera body. But for landscape, architectural and fashion, the sensor is of Great importance, Period!
DR of two stops is necessary for Canon. Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day, Or when you want to travel light and elect not to carry a flash. To handle hight contrast areas and so on....so on...
Color depth is needed for skin tones, color accuracy, handling highlights.
I feel that many on this site betray those of us who want Canon to be the best.
So long as there are members out there that feel the sensor is just fine the way it is, How do you expect to see improvement.
A 250 mp sensor has a great WOW factor. I like it! But please give us more DR and color depth at low ISO's.

Please remember the auto industry. US auto makers gave us crap in the 80's, and it wasn't till consumers went to foriegn manufactures that US auto makers step up their game.
In other words the saying is true. "The squeaky wheel get fixed first"

 

[3kramd5]

Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day...

Can you please define "good DR?"

Personally although the one on the left has a wider DR than the one on the right, I consider both of my main digital cameras to have good DR. Do you not?

 

[rrcphoto]

As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.

no clearly you're not thinking. it's the largest sensor you can make on a traditional stepper lithography machine. which the reason canon always used it for R&D prototypes, it's the largest single pass exposure sensor they could make. (which is why the format came out in the first place).

And that 'stepper lithography machine' uses 130nm tech? I thought it was all running on 500nm tech.

steppers can be any "tech" canon has lithography steppers down to 65nm design rules I believe.

 

[Loswr]

Good DR is needed every time you shoot outdoors on a sunny day...

Can you please define "good DR?"

More than Canon offers, duh! :

In fact, he was more specific - two more stops of (low ISO) DR than Canon offers. That is just exactly enough. 14 stops is sufficient for every outdoor shot on a sunny day. 12 stops is completely inadequate for any such shot.

: : :

 

[Diltiazem]

Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
<p><a href="http://harvestimaging.com/blog/?p=1536" target="_blank">Harvest Imaging</a> has this to say about what Canon presented:</p>
<blockquote><p>Hirofumi Totsuka of Canon presented a 250 Mpixel APS-H size imager : 1.5 um pixel pitch (4 sharing) made in 0.13 um technology node. The device is consuming 1.97 W at full resolution 5fps. An interesting build-in feature of this sensor is the following : ALL pixel signals are converted by column SS-ADCs with a single ramp, but in front of the ADC, each column has its own PGA that can be switched to 4x or 1x gain, depending on the signal level. So when the pixels are sampled, a first check is done to look whether the signal is above or below a particular reference level, and then the right gain of the PGA is set to 1x or 4x. Simple method, but I think that the issues pop up in the reconstruction of the signal at the cross-over point between the two settings of the PGA.</p></blockquote>
<p>This sensor does not mean that the APS-H sensor size is returning. We imagine that whenever the 250mp sensor comes to market, it will be in a full frame application.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Dual gain amplifier is first shown by Kawahito's group at ISSCC 2003. 13 years ago!! Now shows up again as main news and from the work of Canon.This is not a Canon discovery at all

In 2003 the group did not show sensor, they just showed an idea. In 2015 Canon made a 250 MP sensor with dual gain amplifier. They showed pictures taken with it. There is a difference, don't you think? Btw, the group now works for Canon. So, what is your point?

 

[rrcphoto]

As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.

no clearly you're not thinking. it's the largest sensor you can make on a traditional stepper lithography machine. which the reason canon always used it for R&D prototypes, it's the largest single pass exposure sensor they could make. (which is why the format came out in the first place).

And that 'stepper lithography machine' uses 130nm tech? I thought it was all running on 500nm tech.

steppers can be any "tech" canon has lithography steppers down to 65nm design rules I believe.

no , a smaller design role than 180 nm and Canon must go out side their own sensor lines, it also applies to their 130 nm 250mp sensor

Canon's KrF stepper / scanners go down to 90nm and I do believe that some work down to 65nm design rules.

well far enough under 130nm to stay in house.

not to mention that Canon themselves has lithography equipment capable now of going down to 2nm.

Canon has separate R&D offices for lithography, sensor, semiconductor, optics, and some which seem to be a mix.

Also one sensor line was for P&S cameras which that hasn't been used for the longest of times. effectively that line has been dormant for .. well almost 4-5 years+ at least doing P&S sensors.

and there's no "must" ..

canon can easily upgrade a sensor lines in one of their two factories. they had to do it in the past and they did that quietly.

Given the slow down of releases the last little while, one would wonder if they haven't been retrofitting lines to do just that.

btw, Mikael Risedal, it's nice to see you create another account to escape your ban from here, for doing this the last time you were here.

 

[rrcphoto]

Canon is once again talking about their 250mp image sensor that <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-develops-aps-h-size-cmos-sensor-with-approximately-250-megapixels/" target="_blank">they showcased at the Canon EXPO</a> back in September. This time, they’ve presented a paper at the ISSCC 2016 Conference (All About Sensors).</p>
<p><a href="http://harvestimaging.com/blog/?p=1536" target="_blank">Harvest Imaging</a> has this to say about what Canon presented:</p>
<blockquote><p>Hirofumi Totsuka of Canon presented a 250 Mpixel APS-H size imager : 1.5 um pixel pitch (4 sharing) made in 0.13 um technology node. The device is consuming 1.97 W at full resolution 5fps. An interesting build-in feature of this sensor is the following : ALL pixel signals are converted by column SS-ADCs with a single ramp, but in front of the ADC, each column has its own PGA that can be switched to 4x or 1x gain, depending on the signal level. So when the pixels are sampled, a first check is done to look whether the signal is above or below a particular reference level, and then the right gain of the PGA is set to 1x or 4x. Simple method, but I think that the issues pop up in the reconstruction of the signal at the cross-over point between the two settings of the PGA.</p></blockquote>
<p>This sensor does not mean that the APS-H sensor size is returning. We imagine that whenever the 250mp sensor comes to market, it will be in a full frame application.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Dual gain amplifier is first shown by Kawahito's group at ISSCC 2003. 13 years ago!! Now shows up again as main news and from the work of Canon.This is not a Canon discovery at all

In 2003 the group did not show sensor, they just showed an idea. In 2015 Canon made a 250 MP sensor with dual gain amplifier. They showed pictures taken with it. There is a difference, don't you think? Btw, the group now works for Canon. So, what is your point?

not to mention a dual gain PGA is a secondary element to all of this anyways.

outputting 1.25Gpixel / second is some pretty good bandwidth. I would imagine canon needs to work on R&D for stuff like that in short order for all the 8K stuff they are doing over the next 2-3 years.

as full sensor readout for 8K will be around 1Gpixel / second.

 

[Diltiazem]

As all of the R&D sensor announcements are for this size of sensor, it would seems to be that the 1.3x (APS-H) fab has been given to the R&D guys.

no clearly you're not thinking. it's the largest sensor you can make on a traditional stepper lithography machine. which the reason canon always used it for R&D prototypes, it's the largest single pass exposure sensor they could make. (which is why the format came out in the first place).

And that 'stepper lithography machine' uses 130nm tech? I thought it was all running on 500nm tech.

steppers can be any "tech" canon has lithography steppers down to 65nm design rules I believe.

no , a smaller design role than 180 nm and Canon must go out side their own sensor lines, it also applies to their 130 nm 250mp sensor

Canon's KrF stepper / scanners go down to 90nm and I do believe that some work down to 65nm design rules.

well far enough under 130nm to stay in house.

not to mention that Canon themselves has lithography equipment capable now of going down to 2nm.

Also one sensor line was for P&S cameras which that hasn't been used for the longest of times. effectively that line has been dormant for .. well almost 4-5 years+ at least doing P&S sensors.

and there's no "must" ..

canon can easily upgrade a sensor lines in one of their two factories. they had to do it in the past and they did that quietly.

Given the slow down of releases the last little while, one would wonder if they haven't been retrofitting lines to do just that.

btw, Mikael Risedal, it's nice to see you create another account to escape your ban from here, for doing this the last time you were here.

Did you have to expose him? 8)