Canon to Continue Using Canon Sensors in DSLRs

[PureClassA]

What specifically do you think the issue is then with the DIGIC chips? Three generations later since the 1DX, and sounds like you still think they are the limiting factor. Is it the processing speed? Architecture? firmware? Etc...? I guess I'm asking what portion of the chips is it you believe to be the culprit. If speed, could Canon not look to more experienced chip builders like Intel, AMD, Samsung (fill in the blank)... not to say they would.... But do you think Canon is technologically limited on chip construction as they seem to be with Sensors as compared to some others out there?

 

[jrista]

What specifically do you think the issue is then with the DIGIC chips? Three generations later since the 1DX, and sounds like you still think they are the limiting factor. Is it the processing speed? Architecture? firmware? Etc...? I guess I'm asking what portion of the chips is it you believe to be the culprit. If speed, could Canon not look to more experienced chip builders like Intel, AMD, Samsung (fill in the blank)... not to say they would.... But do you think Canon is technologically limited on chip construction as they seem to be with Sensors as compared to some others out there?

I'm not sure it's the DIGIC, it may be the ADC units (which someone pointed out recently, based on a ChipWorks diagram, are independent of the DIGIC processors). I suspect the ADC, as once the data is digital it shouldn't be prone to picking up noise in the same way. I think the ultimate problem is operating frequency. A LOT of work has been done over the years to increase ADC parallelism. One of Exmor (and the Toshiba APS-C sensors used by Nikon) strengths is on-die per-column ADC. That greatly increases ADC parallelism, which allows each ADC unit to operate at a lower frequency.


These days, there are now even patents for per-pixel ADC in CMOS sensor designs, which increases parallelism by another very significant degree, and allows ADC frequency to drop very considerably.


I think Canon's problem is the use of lower parallelism, higher frequency ADC units. They only have 8x or 16x channels, depending on whether were talking single or dual DIGIC. Each channel has it's own off-die ADC. That is parallel, but very low parallelism. Compare it to having an ADC per column...if your column count is 5760, then you have 5760 ADC units. So, in the case of say the 5D III, each ADC unit has to operate fast enough to process ~16.6 million pixels per second. With column parallel ADC, they only need to operate fast enough to process 5760 pixels per second. In other words, you can reduce operating frequency by a factor of 2880x with CP-ADC.


I think Canon's problem is the ADC units...the fact that they are low perallelism, off die, high frequency. To remedy that, I think they probably need to move to a newer fab...something capable of at least a 180nm process, so they can move all the ADC logic on-die. The use of more modern fabrication technology, such as metal interconnects, higher Q.E. photodiodes, etc. would all be a nice bonus, but I think the single biggest gain for Canon is moving to an on-die, hyper-parallel, integrated ADC system.

 

[CanonOregon]

I don't think technology is the only driving force for Canon to look to control the sensors used in its cameras. About nine years ago there was a major recall on P&S cameras relating to a faulty adhesive used to hold the sensor in place. It was an 'eye opener' as to who was using their chips- Fuji, Canon, Nikon and more, something most of you know by now. (Story- http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html) Move forward nine years and a number of tech companies are struggling- and Sony is one. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point some scenario where Sony spun off the sensor and camera tech to Nikon or vice versa, or something else to funnel resources into a more 'condensed' format came about. I think Sony and Nikon need each other more than Canon needs Sony. Sony's position would worry me if I was dependent on them too much for the future.
The Sony story is about the leader of technology for many years, almost a 'Lecia' of manufacturers that could sell products at a higher price point, for years now falling on hard times. Interesting walk through the 'museum of Sony' in this CNN story- http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/business/2014/10/31/pkg-ripley-future-of-sony.cnn.html

 

[jrista]

Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow. That will only become more true as Sony expands it's sensors into more and more markets (which they are doing...I think the majority of Sony sensor revenue comes from embedded devices, security video cameras, smartphones, specialty devices...a smaller portion comes from photography devices.)


Sony is projecting massive revenue growth in their sensor business as well. This year alone they are saying 16% growth. Projections for next year are to continue that trend.

 

[NancyP]

Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.

 

[ahsanford]

Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.

I am not Neuro's publicist, but I think his emoticon-heavy putdown was aimed at DXO's scoring system and not the 7D2.

The 7D2 appears to be a stellar camera for the money. I'd get one for sure if I was into sports, wildlife, birding, etc. But as it stands, I don't shoot that sort of stuff, so the 16-200mm reach on my 5D3 suits me perfectly.

- A

 

[lintoni]

Neuroanatomist, for those of us who don't plan on spending 1DX money, the 7D2 looks like a pretty good action camera, whatever the DXO sensor score may end up being. In the real world, I will get a lot of use out of a camera and lens I can afford and that I can actually haul around and shoot hand-held. The 1DX should be better.

He was being sarcastic, as he frequently is.

 

[unfocused]

Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow...

It is very common for companies that are having financial problems to sell off profitable divisions. If they need to raise cash, it's a lot easier if you sell something that is making money, rather than something that is losing money.

Not saying that will happen with Sony, but I would never presume that just because a division is profitable it is safe from acquisition.

 

[jrista]

Sony's sensor division is one of the few divisions on the company that is actually turning a profit. I don't see Sony unloading that any time soon, as it, along side their insurance division, is their cash cow...

It is very common for companies that are having financial problems to sell off profitable divisions. If they need to raise cash, it's a lot easier if you sell something that is making money, rather than something that is losing money.

Not saying that will happen with Sony, but I would never presume that just because a division is profitable it is safe from acquisition.

Sure, I don't disagree. However, I think you read each company on a case-by-case basis. I could see, longer term, Sony letting all their other divisions fold, and sticking to sensors. It's got MASSIVE growth potential, not only in existing markets, but in numerous new markets as we find more and more ways, more and more places, to use sensors. Sony sensor technology is highly competitive, often the best available, and it just keeps getting better. I guess if they got a major price premium for the sensor business...but then, they would be right back to being this unprofitable electronics company with insurance holding everything up...seems like a lose lose to me.

 

[sailingsilkeborg]

"Myself as well as Northlight both received emails disputing this claim..."

Sorry to mix English with photography, but that use of "myself" doesn't help the message at all. Try "Northlight and I both received emails disputing this claim..."

 

[Marauder]

Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\

 

[eml58]

Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony?

I'm sorry, but I'm far from the only person who was rather ticked off by Maeda's comments regarding their sensor technology. Even the interviewer was surprised by the response.

And there's the real issue perhaps, if the Guy at the Top has convinced himself that Canon are still the leaders in Sensor tech, then it's a lost cause until someone with a better grip on reality takes the wheel. Wether he's a "Bold faced liar" or simply being disingenuous, it's as jrista said, simply "sad".

And I'm reasonably sure Maeda San is quite capable of defending his honour & good name without members of CR attempting crucifixion of other CR members in his defence, especially when he's clearly lost the plot when it comes to Canon's current abilities to develop the cutting edge tech required for Canon to continue to be the Market Leaders.

And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.

And those companies having used Sony Sensors seems to have given those companies a leg up regards Camera Sales.

If Canon produced a 1D body with the current Sony 50MP sensor embedded, I & I hazard a guess, a huge amount of others would be on it like flies on ..... Honey, and the fact that it was a Sony designed sensor & not a Canon designed sensor wouldn't have an iota of consideration in my purchase nor I believe would most others care who made the sensor, just like I don't care who made the Camera strap.

And jrista, if at times your views appear to pee some disgruntled CR members of from time to time, just move on to the stuff I believe most of the non disgruntled CR members (the majority i feel) look forward to reading from you, your technical ability and knowledge, and don't worry about Maeda San, I'm reasonably sure in his position he's been called a lot worse than a "bold faced liar".

 

[sanj]

Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony?

I'm sorry, but I'm far from the only person who was rather ticked off by Maeda's comments regarding their sensor technology. Even the interviewer was surprised by the response.

And there's the real issue perhaps, if the Guy at the Top has convinced himself that Canon are still the leaders in Sensor tech, then it's a lost cause until someone with a better grip on reality takes the wheel. Wether he's a "Bold faced liar" or simply being disingenuous, it's as jrista said, simply "sad".

And I'm reasonably sure Maeda San is quite capable of defending his honour & good name without members of CR attempting crucifixion of other CR members in his defence, especially when he's clearly lost the plot when it comes to Canon's current abilities to develop the cutting edge tech required for Canon to continue to be the Market Leaders.

And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.

And those companies having used Sony Sensors seems to have given those companies a leg up regards Camera Sales.

If Canon produced a 1D body with the current Sony 50MP sensor embedded, I & I hazard a guess, a huge amount of others would be on it like flies on ..... Honey, and the fact that it was a Sony designed sensor & not a Canon designed sensor wouldn't have an iota of consideration in my purchase nor I believe would most others care who made the sensor, just like I don't care who made the Camera strap.

And jrista, if at times your views appear to pee some disgruntled CR members of from time to time, just move on to the stuff I believe most of the non disgruntled CR members (the majority i feel) look forward to reading from you, your technical ability and knowledge, and don't worry about Maeda San, I'm reasonably sure in his position he's been called a lot worse than a "bold faced liar".

Yes Edward you are right. Jrista gets a lot of unnecessary rude comments.

 

[expatinasia]

I personally believe that after having lived and worked in Japan, I think one has to be very careful reading between the lines of interviews done in English. Even taking the actual wording used is not always straightforward.

I love the country, the food, the people etc., but from my personal experience conducting interviews with them in English is very, very difficult.

And I am talking about big companies such as Canon etc.

So personally I would not read too much into what he said.

Great marketing for Sony though!!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

So, the (quite huge) difference on ISO 100 flips to an advantage of Canon-Sensors from ISO 800 and upwards. No one tells you this, but it's the opposite of what the forums are telling on and on and on (Hi Drones!). I even wonder why DXO makes no intersection between lo and high of the (unpushed) ISO-Modes.

???
Who has ever tried to hide that fact? And again how is 1/8th to 1/2 stop difference at high ISO a huge deal, but 2-3 stops at low ISO is never allowed to matter at all?

Canon is traditionally an autofocus/sports aranged brand, I think. So, from their side the sentence "our sensors are the best" could be true, really.

That's not even true since in the early DSLR days the Nikon bodies had the worse sensors but better power specs for body performance.

For portraits you may use the Nikon instead--- and hell, a real pro doesn't care about brands. If you shoot portraits you can get far better results with a Pentax 645, a cam not much more expensive than a D4s.

Why do you bring this up for studio portraits so much, since at least you can set your own lighting in that scenario.

 

[Bennymiata]

There isn't a manufacturer anywhere in the world that makes every single part of ANY finished product it sells, so why shouldn't Canon use Sony, or Fuji, or Samsung or whoever's sensor, as long as it does the job required of it and the price and quality is OK?
As most of the compact cameras are sold on price, adding Canon's sales makes that 1" Sony sensor cheaper to make and I'm sure cheaper than Canon could make it for.

 

[jd7]

Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony?

And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.

Groan ... was that meant to be a pun?

 

[Lawliet]

Why do you bring this up for studio portraits so much, since at least you can set your own lighting in that scenario.

Because of the other effects of the basic problem that causes the DR story. Remember that a Bayer-sensor has to derive color from a set of prefiltered luma values? Any noise automatically also causes color shifts; and the pattern noise those blotchy color patches. Now start with a sujet that has even tones thatare most suceptable to such problems and fine gradients that get killed by noise supression as a major trait - its easy to see why market shares shifted radically in recent times.

 

[eml58]

Re: Canon’s Upcoming Multi-Layer, Foveon-Like Sensor Made By Sony?

And it's just as sad that I agree with most pundits regards Canon stooping to using Sony Sensors in their top of the line DSLR cameras, especially when Nikon does, Phase One does, Hasselblad does, Pentax does, Olympus does & even Apple does (I know, it's not a dslr it's a phone), but you get the picture.

Groan ... was that meant to be a pun?

Unfortunately, Yes, my apologies :-*

 

[roby17269]

So, the (quite huge) difference on ISO 100 flips to an advantage of Canon-Sensors from ISO 800 and upwards. No one tells you this, but it's the opposite of what the forums are telling on and on and on (Hi Drones!). I even wonder why DXO makes no intersection between lo and high of the (unpushed) ISO-Modes.

???
Who has ever tried to hide that fact? And again how is 1/8th to 1/2 stop difference at high ISO a huge deal, but 2-3 stops at low ISO is never allowed to matter at all?

Canon is traditionally an autofocus/sports aranged brand, I think. So, from their side the sentence "our sensors are the best" could be true, really.

That's not even true since in the early DSLR days the Nikon bodies had the worse sensors but better power specs for body performance.

For portraits you may use the Nikon instead--- and hell, a real pro doesn't care about brands. If you shoot portraits you can get far better results with a Pentax 645, a cam not much more expensive than a D4s.

Why do you bring this up for studio portraits so much, since at least you can set your own lighting in that scenario.

I guess the ones that keep "droning" (pun intended) on the advantages of high-ISO DR are the same kind of people that would say "no one shoots over 1600 ISO" if Canon was behind the competition on low-light photography. Same as Sony fans kept droning about the advantages of in-body stabilization only to gloss over it when Sony removed it from the (F)E mount.

I do not fully agree with you on the last point though. I shoot a lot in studio or under controlled lightning and I would still love more leeway in pushing shadows at 100 than what my 1D X offers. And more pixels.