Canon to Continue Using Canon Sensors in DSLRs

[RGF]

Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\

total handover would be a mistake. But take advantage of a supplier's superior product would be of benefit for Canon. If they could match the D800/810 stellar DR in a 5D body would be great. While 36 MP would be nice, much stronger DR is much higher on my wish list.

 

[jrista]

Hopefully the rumour of Canon using coming to rely on Sony sensors is not true. It would be very bad news for Canon (and for photographers!) if they (Canon) surrender chip development to an external provider. It would be a colossal mistake--not one I think they'll make, but so many photography review sites are subscribing to "The Emperor's New Clothes" world that DXO Mark has fostered, that it is a concern. :-\

total handover would be a mistake. But take advantage of a supplier's superior product would be of benefit for Canon. If they could match the D800/810 stellar DR in a 5D body would be great. While 36 MP would be nice, much stronger DR is much higher on my wish list.

It would result in a marketplace nearly totally dominated by one single manufacturer. That can only, in the end/in the long run, be bad for consumers. Canon is the 900 pound gorilla in the digital imaging space (as far as complete products and product lines go.) Caving to pressure from Sony, and giving up their own sensor line, may seem like the right move in the short run, but it would ultimately remove a (well, what should be) a key competitor in the sensor space. The best thing for consumers is for Canon to get off their lazy asses and COMPETE, in every aspect, in the sensor marketplace.

 

[Lawliet]

The best thing for consumers is for Canon to get off their lazy asses and COMPETE, in every aspect, in the sensor marketplace.

Either that, or taking the third option and source the sensors from one of the other manufactors - for example the STM one in the current Leica at least matches its Sony counterpart and considering STM's production capacity...

 

[YuengLinger]

NEWS FLASH! MERCEDES TO CONTINUE USING MERCEDES ENGINES IN SEDANS!

:

 

[donsullivan]

Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.

Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.

The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.

 

[privatebydesign]

Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.

Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.

The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.

Of course you can deny that, and sales numbers and comparative pricing structures back up the opinion that it simply isn't happening in the numbers you think. Sure there might be groups of converts, one way or the other, but if the 5D MkIII can hold its price at $100 more then the second 800 iteration I think you might have a skewed view. If sales of the 5D MkIII were down that badly the price would have dropped.

Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.

 

[jrista]

Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.

Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.

The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.

Of course you can deny that, and sales numbers and comparative pricing structures back up the opinion that it simply isn't happening in the numbers you think. Sure there might be groups of converts, one way or the other, but if the 5D MkIII can hold its price at $100 more then the second 800 iteration I think you might have a skewed view. If sales of the 5D MkIII were down that badly the price would have dropped.

Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.

I think the ideal that the 5D III is still selling near it's peak is untrue. I picked up my 5D III for $2600. I've been watching sales by eBay sellers dropping 5D III's for as little as $2400, gray market or otherwise, sell dozens, even as many as a hundred, in a matter of days. These ebay sellers, and Canon refurb sales (which are also high...there are many items, like the 5D III, 6D or 2x and 1.4x TCs, that sell like hotcakes from Canon refurb), don't get counted on sites like canonpricewatch.com, which only account for sales of new bodies. New bodies themselves are advertised with the minimum advertising prices, however they too usually go for much less.


With the frequency of ebay sales the last six months or so, I'd say the average 5D III price is lower than the D810 price, possibly significantly lower.

 

[lintoni]

Canon would not have to give-up sensor development for good to make a tactical decision to go with the Sony sensor for a generation of cameras while they continue working on their own for the next generation. They have clearly hit a sticking point (or have simply decided it's good enough) with the evolution of their own technology and have not been moving things forward for some years now in the full from DSLR space.

Whether any individual photographers feels this make sense or not, you cannot deny that there is a significant transition underway of photographers spending their money to migrate to Nikon due to the lack of competitive high performance DSLR products from Canon. Whether they are looking for higher resolution (D810) or just better overall sensor performance (D810 or D750) there is a migration away from Canon underway. I'm among those who did it and I personally know of 5 others who've made the transition from Canon (5D3 & 1Dx) to Nikon (D800/D810/D610) in the last year for the very same reason. I learned of another yesterday who had been holding off on upgrading a 5D2 for 6+ months and finally got tired of waiting for Canon and ordered a D750 and the Canon gear is going up for sale.

The bottom line is that if they don't release something that these customers are willing to spend money on, they'll loose those customers to a competitor. And once those people make the switch away from Canon they won't be coming back any time soon. A platform transition is not something that most can afford to do on a whim and once they move it's a one-way street. It took me 6 months from when I started considering it to actually pull the trigger and I'm not going back any time soon.

Of course you can deny that, and sales numbers and comparative pricing structures back up the opinion that it simply isn't happening in the numbers you think. Sure there might be groups of converts, one way or the other, but if the 5D MkIII can hold its price at $100 more then the second 800 iteration I think you might have a skewed view. If sales of the 5D MkIII were down that badly the price would have dropped.

Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.

I think the ideal that the 5D III is still selling near it's peak is untrue. I picked up my 5D III for $2600. I've been watching sales by eBay sellers dropping 5D III's for as little as $2400, gray market or otherwise, sell dozens, even as many as a hundred, in a matter of days. These ebay sellers, and Canon refurb sales (which are also high...there are many items, like the 5D III, 6D or 2x and 1.4x TCs, that sell like hotcakes from Canon refurb), don't get counted on sites like canonpricewatch.com, which only account for sales of new bodies. New bodies themselves are advertised with the minimum advertising prices, however they too usually go for much less.


With the frequency of ebay sales the last six months or so, I'd say the average 5D III price is lower than the D810 price, possibly significantly lower.

And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.

 

[Lawliet]

Now find me a single (pretty much) high school sports shooter who has a Nikon, sure there will be some, but a huge majority f them will be buying Canons, it depends where you look to see these moves.

Look in the segements that can afford to change or keep additional systems w/o taking a mortgage - that demography is moving. Just talk with the folks at rental houses - for example despite higher numbers of AirTTL-Ns in the inventory as a Nikon user you might end up involuntarily using the standard remote; no such concerns w. Canon
Thats the dangerous part with sales figures, even if you get reliable ones - a single number to describe a complex situation, the same as with DXO's rating system.

 

[ahsanford]

You folks realize that Nikon has dozens of disgruntled forum threads talking about switching to Canon, right?

For us, it's their sensors. For them, it's our lens portfolio, high burst rate photography, and video. For Sony, it's a desire to have a full stable of lenses without adapters, to have pro build quality, or to have a competent AF system (depending on your rig).

No one company offers the best tech at everything. The grass is always greener, but apparently it's never green enough to cause an exodus.

- A

 

[jrista]

And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.

I never said anything like that. However how many massive ebay sales of the D810 at firesale prices have you seen? I've seen none, and I've been looking, trust me (I'm VERY interested in the D810 as an addition to my kit...if I can find it, and the 14-24mm, for the right price). I've seen the D810 go for around $2750-$3000 on ebay in final sales. I recently purchased the 5D III for $2600, and I was watching sales for months before I did, and have been watching them since. The 5D III frequently sells for ludicrous prices on a regular basis...however the moment it jumps back up to $2800, $3000, $3200, people stop buying.

 

[lintoni]

And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.

I never said anything like that. However how many massive ebay sales of the D810 at firesale prices have you seen? I've seen none, and I've been looking, trust me (I'm VERY interested in the D810 as an addition to my kit...if I can find it, and the 14-24mm, for the right price). I've seen the D810 go for around $2750-$3000 on ebay in final sales. I recently purchased the 5D III for $2600, and I was watching sales for months before I did, and have been watching them since. The 5D III frequently sells for ludicrous prices on a regular basis...however the moment it jumps back up to $2800, $3000, $3200, people stop buying.

Oh come on! All those eBay sellers have "firesales" to get rid of the 5D3 stock, that they just can't shift otherwise... and then restock the 5D3s that nobody wants, because that is the ideal way to run a business and make money?

 

[jrista]

And there's a moritorium on the sale of D810s on eBay??? I'm sorry, but you're trying too hard to make a pointless point.

I never said anything like that. However how many massive ebay sales of the D810 at firesale prices have you seen? I've seen none, and I've been looking, trust me (I'm VERY interested in the D810 as an addition to my kit...if I can find it, and the 14-24mm, for the right price). I've seen the D810 go for around $2750-$3000 on ebay in final sales. I recently purchased the 5D III for $2600, and I was watching sales for months before I did, and have been watching them since. The 5D III frequently sells for ludicrous prices on a regular basis...however the moment it jumps back up to $2800, $3000, $3200, people stop buying.

Oh come on! All those eBay sellers have "firesales" to get rid of the 5D3 stock, that they just can't shift otherwise... and then restock the 5D3s that nobody wants, because that is the ideal way to run a business and make money?

I don't know what your getting irate about. This community is really nuts. Seriously. WTF?


Just look at what's happening. Watch the ebay sales...I've seen 60, 80 5D III's sell in less than 24 hours, sometimes less than 12 hours, when the price drops to around $2600 or less. Above that, and 5D III's don't move nearly as fast. Sure, they still move em, but you don't see a dozens move every hour. Same thing goes for Canon's refurb site. When they start up a sale, the 5D III's (and it's not just 5D III's, I've seen it happen with 6D's as well) start selling like hotcakes...then the sale ends, and the sales rate drops to a trickle. Much the same happens for certain Nikon models...I haven't seen it happen with the D810 (probably still too new)...I have seen it happen with the D600/610, though. Hotcakes, when the price is right. I've considered grabbing a D610 when it hits firesale prices...it's not 36mp, but it has all the rest of the goodies, including the IQ...for an even better price (and still higher resolution/better low ISO IQ than the 5D III.)


People have become accustomed to the 5D III selling at really great prices. They know it happens on a fairly frequent, semi-periodic basis. So they hold out. I certainly did. I wasn't about to spend $3400 on a 5D III when I knew in a couple/few weeks time it would drop back down to around $2600 again. I bided my time, had all my notifications set up, and was able to snatch one up the next time one of those hot sales came around. Why would I, or anyone else, do anything else? You can save a HUGE amount of money that way, I think I saved nearly $800 over the list/MAP price. Sure, some people are still buying them at higher prices, but when the stock REALLY MOVES...it's at prices well below $3000, usually below $2800, and they sell in swarms when the price hits $2600 or below. (And again, keep in mind, these are not always US/CA market...a lot of the time, they are gray market, so I suspect that the sellers are still making good money even at the low prices...selling 60 or more of an item at a lower profit margin still means more profit than if you sell a handful at a higher profit margin.)


It's just an observation. Anything else, and your not reading what I'm writing, and your getting irate over assumptions you've made about things I haven't said.

 

[lintoni]

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/copernican-revolution-next-canon-dslr-to-use-sony-foveon-alike-sensors/

Maybe Canon engeneers get a little bit wiser....

I would have no problem, if Canon uses Sony sensors and parts from Pentax or other brands, if the Camera will be an superb one. >22MP , Good IQ, better DR, fast and accurate AF,....

Look at the first page of this thread...

 

[xps]

The good thing for Canon is, that other - more innovative - brands do lack in lenses or other additional equipment, an (semi)professional or entusiast will want to have.
So, just a few persons will move to Sony (e.g.), as there are essential lenses missing.

But when sony builts up the lens line, Canon will have to hurry on.

 

[jrista]

The good thing for Canon is, that other - more innovative - brands do lack in lenses or other additional equipment, an (semi)professional or entusiast will want to have.
So, just a few persons will move to Sony (e.g.), as there are essential lenses missing.

But when sony builts up the lens line, Canon will have to hurry on.

I think the same goes for Samsung. The NX1 is impressive, specs wise. They lack the lenses, however there are already some images on the net about Samsung's forthcoming 300mm f/2.8 lens that looks very similar (in terms of size and functionality) to Canon's great white lenses. Only time will tell if it has the IQ, but I for one am very intrigued about a 15fps BSI APS-C camera with a high quality 300mm lens (especially if they eventually release TCs for it.)


So far, I like the sound of the NX1 more than I like the sound of pretty much any A7 series camera (although I'm very impressed by the overall high and low ISO IQ of the A7s.) Once these "alternative" brands get their own lenses for the real critical key ones, like your 70-200's, a few large fast primes (300/2.8, 400/2.8, 600/4), and a few high quality wide, normal, and short tele primes (for which Sony already has a few good ones), I think the market will really open up, with better viable diversity.

 

[donsullivan]

I spoke with 2 more Canon shooters on the west coast today (5D2 & 5D3) who have both decided to dump their Canon gear and jump over to Nikon D750's. One of them (like myself) had tried a Sony a7R for a while and was also unhappy with all of the compromises that came along with that.

While not a mass exodus of all types of shooters, there is without doubt an exodus from Canon (most commonly to Nikon) because Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now. If choosing a competitors sensor would help them to get back in the game, that would not in and of itself be a bad thing.

80% of the photographers I know who 2 years ago were shooting Canon have already given up on Canon and moved on. Every one of these folks were shooting full frame and most with multiple bodies and a huge investment in L Series Glass. They were all ready to move their capabilities forward and Canon simply had nothing to offer and they lost the sense that there was actually anything real on the horizon. These are the type of folks that were pre-ordering things like 5D3 the day it was announced. Canon has lost all of them and they are not coming back any time soon. The longer this exodus continues, the less demand there will be for full-frame Canon gear in the future if they ever do introduce something.

You can come up with scenarios and photographer types with this isn't happening like sports and I'll agree with you. However there is an exodus happening of people who can afford the transition (and some for whom it's a challenge) and it's not going to stop any time soon unless Canon actually releases something that interests these folks.

 

[ITshooter]

I spoke with 2 more Canon shooters on the west coast today (5D2 & 5D3) who have both decided to dump their Canon gear and jump over to Nikon D750's. One of them (like myself) had tried a Sony a7R for a while and was also unhappy with all of the compromises that came along with that.

While not a mass exodus of all types of shooters, there is without doubt an exodus from Canon (most commonly to Nikon) because Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now. If choosing a competitors sensor would help them to get back in the game, that would not in and of itself be a bad thing.

80% of the photographers I know who 2 years ago were shooting Canon have already given up on Canon and moved on. Every one of these folks were shooting full frame and most with multiple bodies and a huge investment in L Series Glass. They were all ready to move their capabilities forward and Canon simply had nothing to offer and they lost the sense that there was actually anything real on the horizon. These are the type of folks that were pre-ordering things like 5D3 the day it was announced. Canon has lost all of them and they are not coming back any time soon. The longer this exodus continues, the less demand there will be for full-frame Canon gear in the future if they ever do introduce something.

You can come up with scenarios and photographer types with this isn't happening like sports and I'll agree with you. However there is an exodus happening of people who can afford the transition (and some for whom it's a challenge) and it's not going to stop any time soon unless Canon actually releases something that interests these folks.

I think there are some market share losses, but in my experience, I still see way more Canon than anything else. I shoot at a lot of press events for big companies and a lot of trade shows, and Canon easily accounts for two-thirds, if not closer to three-quarters, of the cameras I see overall. It varies by event, of course, but out of dozens in the last couple years, I can't recall any event in which Canons weren't at least half the field.

What's very interesting to me is this-- the video scene at these events is still dominated by Canon. I've noticed a few internal PR teams have switched to Nikon gear, and last year at CES, Black Magic cameras had a small but noticeable presence. As someone who will be fairly outraged if the 5D Mark IV (or some other 2015 $2000 - $4000 Canon DSLR) doesn't have a great 1080p implementation and a decent internal 4K implementation, I find Canon's resilience in this market interesting. I used to see more Sonys (e.g. FS100s) among the people who weren't using Canon DSLRs for video; now, I see more C100 and C300 bodies in this group. That said, most of the Canon bodies I see are at least a few years old-- i.e. lots of 5D Mark IIIs, some C100s, even a few t3is and 60Ds. Not seeing any 70Ds yet and it's still too early to have expected a 7D Mark II sighting-- but the reason I bring up the prevalence of older models is this: When I do see photo/video combos that aren't Canon, they're usually micro four thirds, not Sony. This is all anecdotal, of course-- but since we're talking about demographics in which Canon is retaining users, I thought I'd add another set of observations.

 

[donsullivan]

I think there are some market share losses, but in my experience, I still see way more Canon than anything else. I shoot at a lot of press events for big companies and a lot of trade shows, and Canon easily accounts for two-thirds, if not closer to three-quarters, of the cameras I see overall. It varies by event, of course, but out of dozens in the last couple years, I can't recall any event in which Canons weren't at least half the field.

What's very interesting to me is this-- the video scene at these events is still dominated by Canon. I've noticed a few internal PR teams have switched to Nikon gear, and last year at CES, Black Magic cameras had a small but noticeable presence. As someone who will be fairly outraged if the 5D Mark IV (or some other 2015 $2000 - $4000 Canon DSLR) doesn't have a great 1080p implementation and a decent internal 4K implementation, I find Canon's resilience in this market interesting. I used to see more Sonys (e.g. FS100s) among the people who weren't using Canon DSLRs for video; now, I see more C100 and C300 bodies in this group. That said, most of the Canon bodies I see are at least a few years old-- i.e. lots of 5D Mark IIIs, some C100s, even a few t3is and 60Ds. Not seeing any 70Ds yet and it's still too early to have expected a 7D Mark II sighting-- but the reason I bring up the prevalence of older models is this: When I do see photo/video combos that aren't Canon, they're usually micro four thirds, not Sony. This is all anecdotal, of course-- but since we're talking about demographics in which Canon is retaining users, I thought I'd add another set of observations.

I think whether you see a market transition very much depends on the type of shooting you do and correspondingly the type of shooters you are around. What I encounter is in a space best described as travel and landscape, areas where DR and resolution are extremely important. Nearly everyone I see in that space is abandoning Canon and most have headed to Nikon.

Canon has put a great deal of emphasis on the video space over the last few years following the positive response to the video capabilities of the 5D2. It seems that they see that as there play for growth vs the FF still shooter. We've seen a lot of movement on the APS-C gear as well as in the video space but pretty much nothing in the FF still space for nearly 3 years. For those who say 'what about the 6D', I've always thought of that as not much more than a repackaged 5D2.

 

[Loswr]

...Canon has pretty much stagnated in the Full Frame DSLR space for pretty close to 3 years now.

As opposed to Nikon, who has released three new FF bodies in that period to fix problems with their predecessors – the D610 (D600 oil spots and banned for sale in the world's most populous country), the D810 (unify D800/E production lines to save internal costs due to loss of corporate revenue), and the D750 (because neither the D610 nor the D810 were bona fide competitors to the very successful 5DIII and 6D).