Canon wants a 50% marketshare

canonnews

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Canon recently did their annual corporate strategy conference and there’s a pretty surprising statement from Canon in the middle of their speech summary.  They were extremely bullish when it came to the camera side of the company as they dropped the gauntlet when it comes to mirrorless and their overall marketshare stating;</p>
<blockquote><p>.. in our core camera business, in addition to our overwhelming share of the DSLR market, we will go on the offensive and work to expand our sales in the mirrorless camera market, which is exhibiting remarkable growth.  This will allow us to reach our goal of 50% marketshare of the entire interchangeable lens camera market.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now keep in mind, that Canon has been pretty strong on it’s mirrorless message for a while now, this is not Canon suddenly waking up and smelling the coffee ;)</p>
<p>A good example of this was the second quarter results from 2017;</p>
<blockquote><p>In this quarter as well, sales remained strong, particularly for mirrorless cameras. Within this trend, we grew sales of the EOS M6, a new mirrorless camera that has been highly rated not only for its high image quality, but also for its compact and lightweight form factor. This camera was designed to capture demand from people who, for example, are considering a step up to a camera with more features and better performance. Including this factor, first half unit sales of mirrorless camera grew more than 70% compared to the same period last year, leading to overall sales growth for interchangeable-lens cameras.</p></blockquote>
<p>Canon has also continued it’s message of increasing it’s automation of both Camera and Lens assembly, also leading into more of the mirrorless message simply because there’s less human work required to manufacturer a mirrorless camera than the more delicate alignment of a DSLR.</p>
<p>My own outlook on all this, since I’m allowed for one more day here, taken from CanonNews;</p>
<blockquote><p>Some caution is needed when interpreting Canon Inc’s message to the world. This doesn’t mean that Canon is going embark on a major plan to do anything much different than what they are doing now.  As we know from CIPA data, the vast majority of mirrorless cameras ship to asia, and north america has different ideas on what sells with respects to mirrorless.  Will they expand mirrorless and add more capability? Yes of course, the new entry level M50 shows that.  Will they launch a massive development campaign and replicate the entire Fuji lineup of primes? Probably not.</p>
<p>Development also has to be balanced with profitability and the majority of the world probably doesn’t even need that.  What we don’t have as far as a message is; are they going to compete in the north america mirrorless market? That requires the heavier investment, the more innovative camera systems, and the higher upscale cameras then what they have been currently doing.  The M5 was a good first try – one of the more ergonomic mirrorless cameras being built today, however, it’s just a small start in the right direction if they are planning inroads into the highly competitive north american market.</p></blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://global.canon/en/ir/conference/pdf/housin2018ceo-e.pdf">Canon Corporate Strategy Conference 2018 presentation</a></p>
<p><a href="http://global.canon/en/ir/conference/pdf/housin2018ceo-e-note.pdf">Canon Corporate Strategy Confernce 2018 speaker notes</a></p>
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transpo1

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Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market. They may sell the most mirrorless cameras, but the ones they sell are mostly downmarket.

What we don’t have as far as a message is; are they going to compete in the north america mirrorless market? That requires the heavier investment, the more innovative camera systems, and the higher upscale cameras then what they have been currently doing. The M5 was a good first try – one of the more ergonomic mirrorless cameras being built today, however, it’s just a small start in the right direction if they are planning inroads into the highly competitive north american market.
 

canonnews

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transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market.

is it worth it though? the NA mirrorless market is a 15-20% segment of the mirrorless market globally and even only around 20% for value.
 

Talys

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transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market. They may sell the most mirrorless cameras, but the ones they sell are mostly downmarket.

What you're actually trying to say is that Canon requires a Full Frame mirrorless if they want to compete against Sony in the Full Frame mirrorless market -- because Sony's basically the only game in town in that respect, and Canon APSC is doing just fine against Olympus MFT, and Panasonic and Fuji aren't very competitive in terms of marketshare.

Where it comes to mirrorless, Canon has a huge advantage with Dual Pixel. The autofocus experience is so much better than the competition, not only in terms of speed, but the smoothness of how the camera goes from defocused to focused without any jitter or hunting.

Each brand has its own advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure at some point I'll buy a full frame Canon mirrorless camera; but the 3 things I don't care about are:

1. Video, because I won't ever record one.
2. Dynamic Range, because even after using an A7R3, I can't appreciate the extra DR for anything I do.
3. Tiny Size, because I find anything that is smaller than a Rebel to be an ergonomic handicap.

That's not to say that other people will have different priorities than me, of course.

CanoKnight said:
The A73 has sent shockwaves through Canon and here is more evidence of it.

I don't see how. It's still a terrible device for the things that the A7R3 is a terrible device for, like low light flash photography or sports/action. It's a great device for the things that A7R3 are great for, like candids and landscapes.

The device that the A7iii will steal the most sales from are.... A7Riii. Though frankly, if you're making the investment, I'd say, go all the way and spend the extra thousand bucks, because overall it makes no difference to the total camera system spend: if you're not spending thousands of dollars on Sony lenses, you're wasting your money on the Sony body anyways.
 

rrcphoto

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CanoKnight said:
The A73 has sent shockwaves through Canon and here is more evidence of it.

yawn.

It hasn't. apparently you didn't read the article too carefully.
 

pj1974

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Promising words from the Canon CEO. This is exciting.

I love my Canon M5, and look forward to bigger and better mirrorless offerings in the future (including a more comprehensive EF-M / mirrorless set of lenses).

The M5 is a very user friendly camera, and produces great images. I expect the future to be bright with Canon! 8)
 

Etienne

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transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market. They may sell the most mirrorless cameras, but the ones they sell are mostly downmarket.

The "downmarket" cameras are most at risk from Smartphone camera improvements.
Smartphone are nowhere near replacing high end cameras, so maybe Sony's strategy with the A7 series is sound.

I have the M3 and the M6, and I previously owned the original M. But I doubt that I'll buy anymore of these cameras because they are too sluggish and finicky for serious use, and the results are only a little better than the new Smartphones. Whereas just about every full frame camera is fast and intuitive, and the results blow away Smartphones. So while Canon's M-series can easily be replaced by a Smartphone, Sony's A7 III cannot.
 

Talys

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Etienne said:
transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market. They may sell the most mirrorless cameras, but the ones they sell are mostly downmarket.

The "downmarket" cameras are most at risk from Smartphone camera improvements.
Smartphone are nowhere near replacing high end cameras, so maybe Sony's strategy with the A7 series is sound.

I have the M3 and the M6, and I previously owned the original M. But I doubt that I'll buy anymore of these cameras because they are too sluggish and finicky for serious use, and the results are only a little better than the new Smartphones. Whereas just about every full frame camera is fast and intuitive, and the results blow away Smartphones. So while Canon's M-series can easily be replaced by a Smartphone, Sony's A7 III cannot.

No, the M3 and M6 cannot be replaced by smartphones at all, unless all you want to photograph are wide-ish candids at all the same aperture.

And in that case, why would you ever want an A7 III, or any interchangeable lens camera?
 

Etienne

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Talys said:
Etienne said:
transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market. They may sell the most mirrorless cameras, but the ones they sell are mostly downmarket.

The "downmarket" cameras are most at risk from Smartphone camera improvements.
Smartphone are nowhere near replacing high end cameras, so maybe Sony's strategy with the A7 series is sound.

I have the M3 and the M6, and I previously owned the original M. But I doubt that I'll buy anymore of these cameras because they are too sluggish and finicky for serious use, and the results are only a little better than the new Smartphones. Whereas just about every full frame camera is fast and intuitive, and the results blow away Smartphones. So while Canon's M-series can easily be replaced by a Smartphone, Sony's A7 III cannot.

No, the M3 and M6 cannot be replaced by smartphones at all, unless all you want to photograph are wide-ish candids at all the same aperture.

And in that case, why would you ever want an A7 III, or any interchangeable lens camera?

Some smartphones already have a portrait mode, including background blur. Even on full frame most, but not all, of my shots are wide angle. The M series is mostly for casual use, and a smartphone will usually do.

As for mirrorless FF, Canon will get there eventually, but they will lag behind Sony for quite a few years. This comment is important:

"Just look at our technologies, like eye focus. All of that data comes from the imaging sensor. In DSLRs, the data comes from separate sensors. The main imaging sensor is blanked out, 90% of the time by the mirror. The sensor is turned off. But the imaging sensor is very important. So if cameras are going to develop, and be more able to capture the moment, manufacturers have to develop mirrorless technologies. "

The future is mirrorless ... and Canon is behind.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6893376112/sony-executive-predicts-nikon-and-canon-will-go-full-frame-mirrorless-within-a-year
 

Etienne

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PS ...
... Canon is behind in mirrorless today in the same way that Nikon was behind in autofocus 20 years ago.

The Canon I remember was ahead of the curve. They took the risk, and investment, of switching to AF in the lens, orphaning their entire lens lineup, because it was the best technological way forward. Nikon stubbornly stuck with camera body AF and fell way behind Canon.

Today Canon is reluctant to go all in with mirrorless even though it is obvious to most people that mirrorless offers some huge advantages. Now Canon will have to play catch up in that market, rather than lead.
 

neuroanatomist

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Etienne said:
So while Canon's M-series can easily be replaced by a Smartphone, Sony's A7 III cannot.

Sure, whatever you say.

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rrcphoto

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Etienne said:
PS ...
... Canon is behind in mirrorless today in the same way that Nikon was behind in autofocus 20 years ago.

not really.

DPAF is still pretty class leading. People switch BACK to Canon after using Sony, Pansonic,etc simply for DPAF.

No one else has a sensor with over 20 million phase detect points on an ILC.

No one else is CLOSE to having a good level of performance AF'ing with that many points.

the 5D Mark IV sans EVF is a mirrorless camera if you flip up a mirror and has closed any IQ gap considerably to any other sensor.

the M5 is one of the most ergonomic mirrorless cameras out there.

the M50 explores removing alot of the problems associated with what people perceive as far as canon mirrorless and we have no idea what DIGIC 8 is capable of in a higher end model.

the ONLY area they are lacking is video, which has little to do with this narrative, and IBIS which they have little interest it seems in exploring.

Just because they haven't built a camera you particularly want doesn't mean they are behind in technology.

Etienne said:
Today Canon is reluctant to go all in with mirrorless even though it is obvious to most people that mirrorless offers some huge advantages. Now Canon will have to play catch up in that market, rather than lead.

news flash.

even though Mirrorless is expanding, the Canon EF mount is still gaining FAR more mount marketshare than all mirrorless put together. So most people are still quite content with purchasing DSLR's.

why on earth would they "go all in" which would also mean they ignore the EF mount and DSLR's in a similar way to what Sony did with the A mount.

In 2008 and 2014, Sony had a 13% overall marketshare. In 2017 they have a 14% marketshare. It's not exactly working for Sony.

Have more coffee, write less hyperbole ;)
 

Talys

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rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
PS ...
... Canon is behind in mirrorless today in the same way that Nikon was behind in autofocus 20 years ago.

not really.

DPAF is still pretty class leading. People switch BACK to Canon after using Sony, Pansonic,etc simply for DPAF.

No one else has a sensor with over 20 million phase detect points on an ILC.

No one else is CLOSE to having a good level of performance AF'ing with that many points.

the 5D Mark IV sans EVF is a mirrorless camera if you flip up a mirror and has closed any IQ gap considerably to any other sensor.

the M5 is one of the most ergonomic mirrorless cameras out there.

the ONLY area they are lacking is video, which has little to do with this narrative, and IBIS which they have little interest it seems in exploring.

Just because they haven't built a camera you particularly want doesn't mean they are behind in technology.

Let's be clear about what a lot of people gripe about:

Canon has not invested in the technology of making a full frame camera body the size of a point and shoot.

It doesn't matter that nearly the entire professional lens portfolio of Sony or Canon or Nikon are ergonomically ridiculous on such a camera, because the logic goes something like this:

1. My full frame camera can be tiny if I want it to be tiny.
2. It doesn't matter that in tiny mode that the lens isn't the best lens in the world, because it's still way, way better than my smartphone!
3. If I want it to be pro, I could buy pro glass. But I won't, because I want a tiny camera.
4. If I want it to not be ergonomically uncomfortable, I could buy a grip. But I won't because then it won't be a tiny camera.
5. It doesn't matter if an APSC would serve me better, because I want a camera that could take pro shots if I wanted to, even though I despise big, bulky lenses.

See where I'm going with this? :D

People also conflate an excuse to buy something new with "innovation".

Etienne said:
Today Canon is reluctant to go all in with mirrorless even though it is obvious to most people that mirrorless offers some huge advantages. Now Canon will have to play catch up in that market, rather than lead.

Anyone who doesn't see that mirrorless offers some significant advantages is wearing blinders. At the same time, anyone who doesn't see that mirrorless doesn't pose some significant disadvantages is wearing blinders, too.
 

Etienne

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rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
PS ...
... Canon is behind in mirrorless today in the same way that Nikon was behind in autofocus 20 years ago.

not really.

DPAF is still pretty class leading. People switch BACK to Canon after using Sony, Pansonic,etc simply for DPAF.

No one else has a sensor with over 20 million phase detect points on an ILC.

No one else is CLOSE to having a good level of performance AF'ing with that many points.

the 5D Mark IV sans EVF is a mirrorless camera if you flip up a mirror and has closed any IQ gap considerably to any other sensor.

the M5 is one of the most ergonomic mirrorless cameras out there.

the M50 explores removing alot of the problems associated with what people perceive as far as canon mirrorless and we have no idea what DIGIC 8 is capable of in a higher end model.

the ONLY area they are lacking is video, which has little to do with this narrative, and IBIS which they have little interest it seems in exploring.

Just because they haven't built a camera you particularly want doesn't mean they are behind in technology.

Etienne said:
Today Canon is reluctant to go all in with mirrorless even though it is obvious to most people that mirrorless offers some huge advantages. Now Canon will have to play catch up in that market, rather than lead.

news flash.

even though Mirrorless is expanding, the Canon EF mount is still gaining FAR more mount marketshare than all mirrorless put together. So most people are still quite content with purchasing DSLR's.

why on earth would they "go all in" which would also mean they ignore the EF mount and DSLR's in a similar way to what Sony did with the A mount.

In 2008 and 2014, Sony had a 13% overall marketshare. In 2017 they have a 14% marketshare. It's not exactly working for Sony.

Have more coffee, write less hyperbole ;)

Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
 

KirkD

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From my perspective, if Canon wants to achieve its goals they need to up their game in two areas:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Increase the rate of release of high end glass but at a price that will compete with Sigma
[*]Avoid disappointing new versions like the 6D II by offering something that will get us excited enough to want to buy in to the latest version/camera
[/list]
 

rrcphoto

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Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So? on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Etienne said:
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF. and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.
 

Talys

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rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So? on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Etienne said:
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF. and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

Having used Eye AF now, my opinion of it is that it is fantastic for available light candids - just like everything else for the Sony camera. It makes no appreciable difference in studio portraiture, though, because usually we're at huge depth of field apertures like f/11 anyways. I mean, seriously, for anyone who does studio photography, when was the last time you took a shot in the studio where the photo was discarded because an eye wasn't in focus? :D

I do look forward to Pupil AF or whatever it's called in the M50, and hopefully, this feature makes its way to DSLRs, too.

KirkD said:
From my perspective, if Canon wants to achieve its goals they need to up their game in two areas:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Increase the rate of release of high end glass but at a price that will compete with Sigma
[/list]

How about, "If Sony wants to achieve its goals they need to increase the rate of high end glass at a price that will compete with Sigma."

See how ridiculous both sound? :D You may want that, heck, I'd love it. But it ain't gonna happen. Pigs will fly to the moon first.
 

neuroanatomist

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Etienne said:
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.

Why is Sony fully committed to mirrorless? Because they couldn't compete with Canon (and Nikon) in the dSLR segment. What do you supply will happen with Sony — acompany with a long and inglorious history of bailing out where they can't compete — if/when Canon does go 'all in' on mirrorless?
 

Don Haines

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rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So? on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Etienne said:
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF. and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.

All Canon needs to be a big hit with a FF mirrorless (or EF-S crop) is a decent EVF, like in the M50.... If only they could design one, like in the M50.....
 
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