Canon wants a 50% marketshare

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,107
407
Vancouver, BC
neuroanatomist said:
Etienne said:
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.

Why is Sony fully committed to mirrorless? Because they couldn't compete with Canon (and Nikon) in the dSLR segment. What do you supply will happen with Sony — acompany with a long and inglorious history of bailing out where they can't compete — if/when Canon does go 'all in' on mirrorless?

This, actually, would be my #1 reason to NOT invest heavily in Sony camera gear. Even putting aside other markets -- like PCs -- all you have to do is look as far back as their DSLRs. Great support for those now, right?

It's not that I would never buy a Sony, or Sony products. It's just that I'd definitely think twice, and I would be more reluctant to invest heavily in the system, since they're obviously not afraid to drop support of existing product in the name of innovation.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,945
Canada
Talys said:
But it ain't gonna happen. Pigs will fly to the moon first.

sorry..... I could not resist :)
 

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ashmadux

Art Director, Visual Artist, Freelance Photography
Jul 28, 2011
477
66
New Yawk
photography.ashworld.com
They want marketshare, but unwilling to not gimp their products even when the competition is stomping them in innovation.

RIIIIIIIGHT, SUUUUUREEEEEEEEE

They know they market-share can come from flooding the low end with models at every price point imaginable, which none of the competition can compete with. Canon's hardcore belief that get them early and they will want top buy a 3k+ 5d series is misguided to say the least.

Add more full frame options, for the love of all that's holy.
 

docsmith

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 17, 2010
1,065
521
canonnews said:
This will allow us to reach our goal of 50% marketshare of the entire interchangeable lens camera market.

You know, exec's tend not to say too many things like this unless there is already a plan in place. Especially considering manufacturing lead times. They do not want anything that could be construed as misleading to investors and what, it is about 18 months from deciding on a camera to rolling it out? Anything to be released in 2018 is already in production, and if they are making claims like this, I would expect that the M50 is not the last M release in 2018.
 

Woody

EOS R
Jul 20, 2010
1,162
88
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.

Seriously?

See this:

"Sony has various autofocus tracking modes too; face recognition tracking, continuous eye autofocus tracking, center lock autofocus, etc. But none of them are as easy to enable as Canon’s focus tracking. Sony also uses a combination of phase detection autofocus (PDAF) and contrast detection autofocus (CDAF), which works well, but does not seem to be able to match Canon’s Dual Pixel Autofocus when it comes to accuracy in situations of low light, or when shooting subjects that have limited contrast."

- https://petapixel.com/2018/03/10/5-reasons-switched-back-canon-sony/
 

RayValdez360

Soon to be the greatest.
Jun 6, 2012
734
495
39
Philadelphia
Cellphones and the new mirrorless 3rd generation from Sony def got Canon shook. A lot of the m50 advertisement is to sway people from using cellphones for photos. the addition of eye af is def a shot at sony.
 

PavelR

EOS 90D
Woody said:
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.

Seriously?

See this:

"Sony has various autofocus tracking modes too; face recognition tracking, continuous eye autofocus tracking, center lock autofocus, etc. But none of them are as easy to enable as Canon’s focus tracking. Sony also uses a combination of phase detection autofocus (PDAF) and contrast detection autofocus (CDAF), which works well, but does not seem to be able to match Canon’s Dual Pixel Autofocus when it comes to accuracy in situations of low light, or when shooting subjects that have limited contrast."

- https://petapixel.com/2018/03/10/5-reasons-switched-back-canon-sony/
It is comparison only for video and with old APS-C camera: A6300.

If I compare Sony A9 vs 1ds3/1d4 - stills - hit rate for moving subjects towards the camera with 70-200mm @ 2.8 is better on Sony (first person experience).
 

criscokkat

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2017
335
304
Madison, WI
Now that they've had time to see how well Sony's small size and slightly smaller lens size has worked, or not worked, I think they've had time to see that the drawbacks for pros in going to a new system leaves too much of an opportunity for people invested in EF lenses to jump ship. Even keeping the same size registration distance there are still opportunities to make a smaller camera.

The biggest indicator to me that they are not going to come out with new lenses and/or registration distance is the fact that we have not seen any newer patents on any of this. Canon is one of the most prolific patent producing companies out there and you can almost always see the direction of things from those patents.

Once you see the M lenses start coming out with lenses in the 1-2k range, you might see some pro style M bodies. Until then whatever new full frame mirrorless is most likely going to be the same size, just without a mirror and as many moving parts. The biggest hurdle for Canon will be designing chips that can handle the raw throughput needed to match sony and still keep the much better dpaf and color that canon offers.

I have a feeling once this camera is announced you are going to see this camera sold out for months and months after release.
 

Tugela

EOS R
Feb 12, 2014
873
23
canonnews said:
transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market.

is it worth it though? the NA mirrorless market is a 15-20% segment of the mirrorless market globally and even only around 20% for value.

I suspect that is going to change in 2018. The NA market may have resisted MILCs up till now, but there are some really compelling products on the market now. The best MILCs are as good as the best DSLRs at this point, and some are arguably better.
 

Tugela

EOS R
Feb 12, 2014
873
23
rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So? on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Etienne said:
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF. and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
Tugela said:
canonnews said:
transpo1 said:
Interesting. Canon requires more innovation if they are to compete in the upscale NA mirrorless market.

is it worth it though? the NA mirrorless market is a 15-20% segment of the mirrorless market globally and even only around 20% for value.

I suspect that is going to change in 2018. The NA market may have resisted MILCs up till now, but there are some really compelling products on the market now. The best MILCs are as good as the best DSLRs at this point, and some are arguably better.
In NA market, DSLR's are very cheap. Canon and Nikon sells their bottom level latest/last year DSLR model with kit lens for $300. What is the cheapest mirrorless setup available in NA market? Canon M100 is the cheaperst mirrorless offering which is still way more expensive than cheaper DSLR's in the market. There are some m4/3 offerings though. May be once Canon starts pumping out mirrorless cameras with $300 - $400 price point, we can see things changing. Sony abandoned their lower end market after their successful NEX line up.
 

rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Tugela said:
The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

I'm curious how you know that canon didn't purposely gimp the 4K for heat or battery life considerations considering it has the smallest capacity battery in all of canon's cameras.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
Tugela said:
rrcphoto said:
Etienne said:
Canon's DPAF is good, but Sony's Eye focus and tracking ability blows it out of the water.
Sony is committed to mirrorless, Canon has not demonstrated near that commitment.
So? on what planet would it make sense for canon to dump DSLR's even now?

it sounds like you took a wrong turn and ended up in AvTV's alternate universe.

Etienne said:
Neither brand will stand still, but Sony has quite a headstart in mirrorless.
Canon now has demonstrated eye tracking AF. and it's completely unknown to what DIGIC 8 can do in a higher end model.

with DPAF as processing power increases, so it will it's capabilities, PDAF points on the sensor can have artifacts, as well as a finite limit to how much of the sensor you mask that way.

and it's always easier for a company to catch up to someone that has pulled ahead versus the company with the headstart to continue at that pace.

Canon also has a far more interactive UI, far more ergonomics AF joystick pad, and with the M5 simply a more ergonomic experience in a small camera. Something Sony has seemed to care little about.

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.
They have 4k and PDAF with 5d4 and 1dx2 with their older processor. If you go by specs, 1dx2 is the only camera with 4k 60p on the market. Latest Sony is yet to have this on their spec sheet. 1dx2 is almost 2 years old Camera.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,828
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Tugela said:
he digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

Well, after all, you're the expert on Digic processors and their capabilities. You expertly stated that all cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K video, for an expertish example of your expertly expert expertise.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,945
Canada
Tugela said:
The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

That would be true if raw processor speed was the limiting factor, but is it?

Perhaps the problem is the ability to read the sensor fast enough.....
Perhaps the problem is thermal management, where a larger body has more heat sinking ability and can run faster....

anyway, it does not matter because there is undoubtedly a digic8+ or a digic9 in the works.....
 

old-pr-pix

EOS RP
Dec 26, 2011
439
75
The attached charts from CIPA 2018 market study show the penetration mirrorless have vs. dSLR. On global basis ML has gone from 9% to 28% (by value) of all digital cameras shipped. Absolute growth of ML has been slow as the overall market has shrunk dramatically. (Total Jan 2018 shipments were down 28% Y on Y. The bigger hit was to built-in lens (-35%), ILC was -20%.) However, Canon's support of ML reflects their sense the market has finally reached a tipping point.

In the Americas the ML penetration lags the rest of the world by 4-5 years. In terms of units shipped ML is still only 10% of total. It appears the US (& Canada) still loves dSLR's!
 

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Jaysheldon

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 23, 2015
91
28
I'm just about to plunk down over $1K for a used 400MM f5.6, so I'll be real unhappy if in the near future Canon announces the end of the EF mount -- and the availability of an adapter won't cheer me up.
 

old-pr-pix

EOS RP
Dec 26, 2011
439
75
Jaysheldon said:
I'm just about to plunk down over $1K for a used 400MM f5.6, so I'll be real unhappy if in the near future Canon announces the end of the EF mount -- and the availability of an adapter won't cheer me up.
If you are in the US, make sure you check Canon Price Watch: https://www.cpricewatch.com/street-prices/ and for refurbs.: https://www.cpricewatch.com/canon-refurb-stock-tracker/ It looks like 400mm 5.6 goes for $1120 new. If refurb. model is in stock it should be less than $1K and would have full Canon one year warranty.