Canon's Full Frame Mirorrless Cameras [CR2]

[Adelino]

+1.....

remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....

Most of what I recall people saying was digital is not better thab film YET... but almost everyone I knew expected digital to fully replace film except in special niche applications which is what has happened. Because of the OVF I think there will always be a place for SLRs. I agree it will be cost issue when mirrorless is the most important part of ILC market and SLR will be niche.

 

[dak723]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

For landscapers, this conversation seems to be an easy one. I assume:
(please straighten me out if I've missed something)

• You don't need/want an AA filter (almost always, there are exceptions)

I am not a pro landscape photographer, but do mostly landscapes and I would definitely NOT want the AA filter removed. I have a camera with no AA filter and have taken numerous shots that are essentially ruined by over-exaggerated detail that you get from no AA filter.

I understand that I may not be a typical CR forum dweller coming from a fine art/painting background. Too much detail, in many cases, is unwanted, something I realize is probably a new thought to tech minded folks. In art as well as photography, the large shapes are central to good composition in most cases. Studies have shown that when people look at things, they often don't see or minimize interior details. So too much detail can be a distraction or look very unnatural. I recall one of the sample photos when the 5Dsr first came out. A beautiful portrait absolutely ruined by showing every tiny hair on the beautiful woman's face. In landscapes, i want to photograph the trees - not every leaf on the trees.

Again, that's another perspective probably not common here. [/list]

 

[privatebydesign]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.

 

[ahsanford]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.

Any reason why Photons to Photos -- a fairly respectable source -- doesn't report this?

I'm not doubting you, but from what little I've read the DR is in there but I've only seen specialized RAW file analysis tools able to tease out these differences. For instance, could I get use this extra DR in ACR, Lightroom, etc. straight from the original file off the camera, or do I have to wash it through some intermediate step?

(Forgive my ignorance, I don't own a 5D4.)

- A

 

[Generalized Specialist]

By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.

Haha, you nailed it! First it was Canon has prototypes out in the field being tested for years now, then it was select Canon Explorers of Light were field testing possible production units, then it was a release was going to happen REAL SOON NOW, then the A7iii hit and it was pushed back to being announced at Photokina with a Winter '18/early '19 release date, now it's pushed back yet again to Spring '19. Seems like for every new month this vapourware Canon FF gets pushed back another quarter.

What a joke. Canon has become one of the laughing stocks of the industry.

 

[Generalized Specialist]

They don't give two hoots about Sony right now

- A

I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.

Plus, with the constant delay's Canon is doing they give Sony more and more time to release even better bodies and glass and then there's the aftermarket to fill in any blanks.

Sad to see Canon going all Kodak here but I've said it before so will say it again - they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[privatebydesign]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.

Any reason why Photons to Photos -- a fairly respectable source -- doesn't report this?

I'm not doubting you, but from what little I've read the DR is in there but I've only seen specialized RAW file analysis tools able to tease out these differences. For instance, could I get use this extra DR in ACR, Lightroom, etc. straight from the original file off the camera, or do I have to wash it through some intermediate step?

(Forgive my ignorance, I don't own a 5D4.)

- A

Photons to Photos doesn't report it because they use RAW files from DxO, and they use the standard 'Master' RAW file which is the sum of both sub pixels.

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.

 

[jedy]

Surely a FF mirrorless with EF mount would mean an end to lens/camera calibration (with my existing lenses) due to the differing focus system in mirrorless. Calibration is the number one annoyance I have with DSLR's. The hours I've wasted trying to obtain accurate autofocus with all my lenses!

 

[HarryFilm]

"....I say this because I have a lingering suspicion Sony is going to pull a Sony and announce something absurdly spec'd the week (if not the very same day) Canon and Nikon out their FF mirrorless products. Like an A9 II or A7R IV or something with the specs of a fanboy fever dream. ..."

--

You got that right! And boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc RIGHT ON THEIR HEADS with the biggest bluntest set of new Micro-4/3rds, APS-C, FF and MF+ camera bodies and audio/video/stills formats seen yet! It is literally going to be a slaughter of the technological innocents. They're all toast after this intro!

What a lineup! AND multiple UTTERLY FANTASTIC SETS OF Native Lenses too!

 

[Talys]

They don't give two hoots about Sony right now

- A

I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.

Plus, with the constant delay's Canon is doing they give Sony more and more time to release even better bodies and glass and then there's the aftermarket to fill in any blanks.

Sad to see Canon going all Kodak here but I've said it before so will say it again - they have no one to blame but themselves.

Just because something exists doesn't make it good. Sony is the FF Mirrorless leader, because they make a FF Mirrorless camera, the only one on the market. If you're desperate to how one, that is certainly your best /only bet. But I'd flip it around.i want to do a job, not own a camera or a type if tech. So, how do product shots taken with a FF milc look better than an apsc dslr?how is it faster, cheaper or more efficient. Mostly, a Sony is just more work to get tothe same result.

 

[unfocused]

...boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc RIGHT ON THEIR HEADS with the biggest bluntest set of new Micro-4/3rds, APS-C, FF and MF+ camera bodies and audio/video/stills formats seen yet! It is literally going to be a slaughter of the technological innocents. They're all toast after this intro!...

About as reliable as this:

...BUT...we DO have another software surprise for you which should be happening right around this coming Wednesday....

...Anyways there IS A VERY DIFFERENT SURPRISE coming
your way, so keep watching ON THIS FORUM HERE in
the next 5 to 7 days to see what's up on that end!

It's a dooozy of a surprise !!!!!! ;-) ;-)

To remind everyone:

Harry,

On 29th April, you said:

...BUT...

we DO have another software surprise for you which should be happening right around this coming Wednesday....

Well it's now over a week later than you indicated, and we're still waiting.

So...? Have you got anything, or not?

(I think we know the answer.)

Still waiting...

June 5. Still waiting....

June 13. Still waiting...

July 5: Still waiting

 

[sebasan]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.

Any reason why Photons to Photos -- a fairly respectable source -- doesn't report this?

I'm not doubting you, but from what little I've read the DR is in there but I've only seen specialized RAW file analysis tools able to tease out these differences. For instance, could I get use this extra DR in ACR, Lightroom, etc. straight from the original file off the camera, or do I have to wash it through some intermediate step?

(Forgive my ignorance, I don't own a 5D4.)

- A

Photons to Photos doesn't report it because they use RAW files from DxO, and they use the standard 'Master' RAW file which is the sum of both sub pixels.

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.

I have submitted dual pixel raws to photonstophotos and they are analyzing the files.
With a dual pixel raw file, you need a software (free by the way) "dprsplit", which separate the dual pixel raw in two dngs, one the original (ETTR + 1 stop) and one 1 stop darker (ETTR). You need to expose 1 stop above ETTR in the field.
Then, in post, after you have the two raws, you processed them the way you proccess for recovery the shadows (luminosity masks, etc).

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123160.0

 

[ahsanford]

I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.

You're right with the red part above. It will be compared by we, the arm-chair quarterbacks of the internet, and by Sony, surely.

But Canon isn't worried about competing in a fledgling market yet. Their first goal is to get every Canon FF user to buy their FF mirrorless body, because that is (by far) the easiest sale. Their first goal is to release a working product that their own customers want to own.

I expect the following to occur:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Specs and photos will be leaked/confirmed/announced. The mount decision will be crystal clear at this stage.
[*]The internet will. go. nuts. mocking the price and what it doesn't get you compared to Sony. The Windows 95 = Macintosh '89-like burns will be so fierce. :
[*]If only one mount is announced at launch, some of the folks who don't get the mount they wanted will have kittens over the 'bad' decision and threaten to leave.
[*]The product will be released
[*]It will sell well.
[*]The end.
[/list]

Notice how 'winning' isn't part of this at all. Canon just needs to show up with a reliable product that natively handles EF and it sells. It's like magic.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.

There's a reason Sigma Foveon sensors didn't take off, right? You had to assemble those files through clunky third party tools, didn't you?

Were I shooting a 5D4 today, DPRAW would be dead to me if I needed to wash it through 3rd party workflow. That's not worth a stop to me. Canon should actively lobby to get that functionality baked into ACR and Lightroom, and pronto.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

You got that right! And boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc

No one expects the HarryFilm inquisition. It's like's he's just waiting to pounce.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I have submitted dual pixel raws to photonstophotos and they are analyzing the files.
With a dual pixel raw file, you need a software (free by the way) "dprsplit", which separate the dual pixel raw in two dngs, one the original (ETTR + 1 stop) and one 1 stop darker (ETTR). You need to expose 1 stop above ETTR in the field.
Then, in post, after you have the two raws, you processed them the way you proccess for recovery the shadows (luminosity masks, etc).

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123160.0

Glad you submitted that -- curious to see the output.

But if you have to deliberately ETTR +1 stop, the firmware on Canon bodies doesn't report how much you blew your highlights by, correct? That somewhat implies you have to nail the ETTR (but shooting and chimping the histo) and then goose Exp. Comp a stop, which would appear to be only well suited for scripted, composed work you can take your time with (studio, landscape, product, etc.)

Cool? Yes.

Useful? Not until the firmware can be tweaked to show you your +1 stop overexposure on the histo and the files can be dropped right into industry standard software.

Intrigued, but this scream MagicLantern way more than a stock daily driver of a camera + subsequent workflow.

- A

 

[sebasan]

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.

There's a reason Sigma Foveon sensors didn't take off, right? You had to assemble those files through clunky third party tools, didn't you?

Were I shooting a 5D4 today, DPRAW would be dead to me if I needed to wash it through 3rd party workflow. That's not worth a stop to me. Canon should actively lobby to get that functionality baked into ACR and Lightroom, and pronto.

- A

Yes, i am very interested in the conclusions by photonstophotos.

I know maybe it is more work in the field, but when you worked a lot of pictures, you are confident what you can achieve. In the case of post, do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow. It is not only to move the shadow slider to the right the right way to extract the information from the file.

 

[ahsanford]

Do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow.

Or you could leave a stop on the table and just work with sliders in ACR, luminosity masks in PS, etc. I think it all depends on your patience and willingness to 'work the dough'.

I'm not a pro. I'll stick to the simple path. Full respect to those who want it more, though.

- A

 

[sebasan]

Do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow.

Or you could leave a stop on the table and just work with sliders in ACR, luminosity masks in PS, etc. I think it all depends on your patience and willingness to 'work the dough'.

I'm not a pro. I'll stick to the simple path. Full respect to those who want it more, though.

- A

Sorry, i have changed my answer because when i was writing you were answer me too. Maybe I sound rude, that was not my intention. Please read my edited answer ;D
Of course that we all want the easiest way to get the results, but we have to be careful, because anybody could get a descent picture if the camera do all the work.

 

[BillB]

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.

Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.

Any reason why Photons to Photos -- a fairly respectable source -- doesn't report this?

I'm not doubting you, but from what little I've read the DR is in there but I've only seen specialized RAW file analysis tools able to tease out these differences. For instance, could I get use this extra DR in ACR, Lightroom, etc. straight from the original file off the camera, or do I have to wash it through some intermediate step?

(Forgive my ignorance, I don't own a 5D4.)

- A

Photons to Photos doesn't report it because they use RAW files from DxO, and they use the standard 'Master' RAW file which is the sum of both sub pixels.

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.

And all this would seem to be a pretty good benchmark of the practical importance of maxing the DR of modern equipment, as opposed to bickering about magic DPR/DXO magic DR numbers voodoo. Well, if it is going to be any work, I don't want to bother with it....