Confirmed, a Canon EOS R5c is going to be announced this year [CR3]

TAF

EOS RP
CR Pro
Feb 26, 2012
444
125
Thats bad news for current R5 owners , that means the next firmware updates are not going to sort the heating issues out , or add much to the video side of the current R5

Depends on how you look at it. If it means that future firmware updates are aimed primarily at improving the stills capability, then perhaps it will be a blessing for many R5 owners (myself included).
 
the issue is current graphics cards and drivers (as well as Adobe Premiere) do not support 10-bit 4:2:2 h.265 hardware acceleration. once they do, there will be no issue with R5 video editing. Because the lack of GPU acceleration of that format, it falls completely onto the CPU to decode and encode. Apple had the foresight to recognize that in their M1 chip and as a result, editing R5 footage (and it requires Davinci or Final Cut; thanks, Adobe) is easy.
the issue is current graphics cards and drivers (as well as Adobe Premiere) do not support 10-bit 4:2:2 h.265 hardware acceleration. once they do, there will be no issue with R5 video editing. Because the lack of GPU acceleration of that format, it falls completely onto the CPU to decode and encode. Apple had the foresight to recognize that in their M1 chip and as a result, editing R5 footage (and it requires Davinci or Final Cut; thanks, Adobe) is easy.
I don’t mind the codec format, but more so the amount of space used to achieve that codec. The C70 shoots way less, but looks just as good, if not better in 4K. I think I said that right lol.

The data rates are just insane. I’ve heard some people talk about proress being implemented. Is that even an option?
 
Aug 27, 2020
8
4
fan needing bigger body for cooling and thus no overheating makes sense, it's a hardware upgrade.
But how on earth does Canon not 'cripple' their still new R5 if they offer C-Log2 and other software only features on the same hardware (besides cooler) in an R5c?

I feel ripped off as it is.... this would be another bummer.

At least go and offer firmware addons people can pick and pay for. 50 bucks for CLOG2... ok. 50 bucks for waveforms. H264 codec, focus-spot bound metering etc etc.
But no... Canon just claims it doesn't cripple their cameras ... right. Who are they fooling? Sadly most. Why would they change their behavior if most customers don't mind spending the money and not even complain?

I'm a more or less happy Canon shooter, 'stuck' with many lenses, never switched to Sony because of that and because I like many things about Canon better.
I'm mostly happy with the R5 but eager for a policy change from Canon towards higher frequency firmware upgrades. Make money with hardware, provide the best software you can, charge for addons if you must but don't expect most people purchasing cameras more frequently when all that is missing is Canon's will to SUPPORT their own product properly.
 
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Bdbtoys

R5
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2020
291
224
fan needing bigger body for cooling and thus no overheating makes sense, it's a hardware upgrade.
But how on earth does Canon not 'cripple' their still new R5 if they offer C-Log2 and other software only features on the same hardware (besides cooler) in an R5c?

I feel ripped off as it is.... this would be another bummer.

At least go and offer firmware addons people can pick and pay for. 50 bucks for CLOG2... ok. 50 bucks for waveforms. H264 codec, focus-spot bound metering etc etc.
But no... Canon just claims it doesn't cripple their cameras ... right. Who are they fooling? Sadly most. Why would they change their behavior if most customers don't mind spending the money and not even complain?

I'm a more or less happy Canon shooter, 'stuck' with many lenses, never switched to Sony because of that and because I like many things about Canon better.
I'm mostly happy with the R5 but eager for a policy change from Canon towards higher frequency firmware upgrades. Make money with hardware, provide the best software you can, charge for addons if you must but don't expect most people purchasing cameras more frequently when all that is missing is Canon's will to SUPPORT their own product properly.
We are getting clog3 soon for free on the upcoming firmware.
 

Rocksthaman

Eos R , R6 , R5
Jul 9, 2020
114
93
We are getting clog3 soon for free on the upcoming firmware.
It’s almost like he already knew that and stated cLog 2 for a reason.

It’s pretty clear the point he is making and it’s valid. Not to mention do you remember the 1DC and the accompanying price? $12k ....in 2012.
 
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Aug 27, 2020
8
4
We are getting clog3 soon for free on the upcoming firmware.
what does that have to do with my statement?
It’s almost like he already knew that and stated cLog 2 for a reason.
yes of course I knew that C-Log 3 is supposed to come out for the R5. But why not C-Log2 as well, it's not like it would cost them a lot of work adding it. C-Log2 offers more dynamic range, that's just a fact. So why wouldn't they offer it but instead now announce it for the R5c? It's shameful.



tIQFaKt.png

taken from this website:

or here:

No need to discuss the differences between the log formats here, C-Log2 just offers more dynamic range, period. My question and frustration remains, it is an artificial castration of features and half a year ago or so some Canon manager was interviewed regarding crippling their models and the answer was 'no'... which is obviously not truthful.

Give me the firmware and I will add focus spot related metering in a couple of days/weeks, I'm a good enough programmer of high efficiency code for image analysis to pull this off, it could maybe be done in a day if you knew your way around the firmware already. Laughable. I bet you they'll offer it the the R1 and R5 users will keep thinking that it's a hardware limit... right... every phone can do it but the 4500€ camera with a throughput of 30frames 8K a second can't ... LOL

Oh and 99 frame limit in the intervalometer. How about the record limit even though the EU got rid of the import tax on photo cameras being able to record longer video.
... stuff like that is just comical, there are artificial limitations off all categories and technical difficulty, from something that's clearly just a single line of code to copying the same code from another camera, I honestly don't know why not more customers keep mail-bombing the support but at least I and some others will continue to do so.
 
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Bdbtoys

R5
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2020
291
224
@randfee I only mentioned clog3 because you said 'and other software only features'. I did not realize you were after the clog2 over clog3 for the extra stop of DR... or that you even knew clog3 was coming. I was just pointing out a 'free' upgrade was coming to possibly point a light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Rocksthaman

Eos R , R6 , R5
Jul 9, 2020
114
93
what does that have to do with my statement?

yes of course I knew that C-Log 3 is supposed to come out for the R5. But why not C-Log2 as well, it's not like it would cost them a lot of work adding it. C-Log2 offers more dynamic range, that's just a fact. So why wouldn't they offer it but instead now announce it for the R5c? It's shameful.



tIQFaKt.png

taken from this website:

or here:

No need to discuss the differences between the log formats here, C-Log2 just offers more dynamic range, period. My question and frustration remains, it is an artificial castration of features and half a year ago or so some Canon manager was interviewed regarding crippling their models and the answer was 'no'... which is obviously not truthful.

Give me the firmware and I will add focus spot related metering in a couple of days/weeks, I'm a good enough programmer of high efficiency code for image analysis to pull this off, it could maybe be done in a day if you knew your way around the firmware already. Laughable. I bet you they'll offer it the the R1 and R5 users will keep thinking that it's a hardware limit... right... every phone can do it but the 4500€ camera with a throughput of 30frames 8K a second can't ... LOL

Oh and 99 frame limit in the intervalometer. How about the record limit even though the EU got rid of the import tax on photo cameras being able to record longer video.
... stuff like that is just comical, there are artificial limitations off all categories and technical difficulty, from something that's clearly just a single line of code to copying the same code from another camera, I honestly don't know why not more customers keep mail-bombing the support but at least I and some others will continue to do so.
☝️☝️☝️☝️ This is the one.

Its crazy. Creators have never had more incentive to work on video and grow into a “cinema” camera and the entry is the $5500 S35 C70 just to not have a record limit .... Then you still have to buy a “photo”camera.

Man I love my Cameras, it just feels like your getting the short end of the stick and kind of takes the fun out of it when you want to try some of the new things, and the answer is go buy a cinema camera, when a thousand dollar Sony can shoot unlimited in Slog-3 powered by usb to two card slots and the R5 can’t do any of it. Lol
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS RP
Sep 20, 2020
334
230
The data rates are just insane. I’ve heard some people talk about proress being implemented. Is that even an option?
Canon only puts ProRes in the C700.
Since the Z CAM E2-M4 has it and only costs $1,500 I can only assume that it is not the cost of the license that is making Canon leave it off.
(I intentionally left off BMPCC 4K because I assume Black Magic must have some arrangement with Apple since they also make external recorders.)
 

TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30
I don’t mind the codec format, but more so the amount of space used to achieve that codec. The C70 shoots way less, but looks just as good, if not better in 4K. I think I said that right lol.

The data rates are just insane. I’ve heard some people talk about proress being implemented. Is that even an option?

Prores won't be smaller than HEVC. The whole point of HEVC is it's compact.

I don't see a serious data rate difference between the C70 and the R5 when looking at apples to apples

XF-AVC 4096 x 2160 YCC422 @25p (10bit/410Mbps Intra)

4K (29.97p/25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): ALL-I Approx. 470 Mbps

If anything the R5 might be lower at 25p.
 

TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30
the issue is current graphics cards and drivers (as well as Adobe Premiere) do not support 10-bit 4:2:2 h.265 hardware acceleration. once they do, there will be no issue with R5 video editing. Because the lack of GPU acceleration of that format, it falls completely onto the CPU to decode and encode. Apple had the foresight to recognize that in their M1 chip and as a result, editing R5 footage (and it requires Davinci or Final Cut; thanks, Adobe) is easy.


That's not true anymore.

Resolve added support with version 17.1 on intel platforms. Adobe released what they called tigerlake features. I can only guess they meant 4.2.2 support.

Intel has supported 4.2.2. 10 bit 265 since Icelake IGPU. Tigerlake and Rocketlake add 12bit support.
 
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TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30

Performance improvements in H.264/HEVC encoding for TigerLake processors (11th generation Intel Core mobile processors).

Somebody want to ask Adobe what exactly that means?


• H.265 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Intel decode support in DaVinci Resolve Studio.
• H.265 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Intel encode support in DaVinci Resolve Studio.
 

dirtyvu

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 7, 2019
56
37
That's not true anymore.

Resolve added support with version 17.1 on intel platforms. Adobe released what they called tigerlake features. I can only guess they meant 4.2.2 support.

Intel has supported 4.2.2. 10 bit 265 since Icelake IGPU. Tigerlake and Rocketlake add 12bit support.
Yes, but no one uses the Intel GPU. The first thing most people do when they build or buy a PC is to put in an Nvidia or AMD GPU because overall they are much more powerful. I don't have any of those Intel processors because overall, they're much weaker than the latest AMD processors. I'm not sure who would take out their more powerful GPU just to use the internal Intel GPU. Plus, you need the software to recognize and use the features of the GPU. Just because Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, etc. support the codec doesn't mean the software supports it. If it's easy to flip back and forth between choosing which GPU to use for decoding/encode, that would be fantastic. I would love to hear from Resolve users how fast it is to edit h.265 10-bit 4:2:2 EOS R5 footage with the latest Intel processors.

And just so you know, these terms such as ice Lake, Tiger Lake, etc. refer to the project name that Intel had internally for that line of processors. Ice Lake is Intel's 10th generation processor line. Rocket Lake is the 11th generation. When you are writing about Adobe, it means that Adobe has added software support for those processors to utilize hardware decoding/encoding for (in this case) h.265 10-bit 4:2:2. I am very interested if this is the case as I haven't heard anyone reviewing how the new Intel Xe graphics do with editing this footage.

I'm not a Resolve user anyway. I'm completely familiar with Adobe Premiere and don't intend to switch.

And Adobe improving performance in h.264/HEVC... we'll wait to see what that means. Adobe is always slow with improving GPU support. With Lightroom, a ton of stuff is still only done on the CPU instead of the GPU. For example, if you're just encoding the picture, the GPU is used and the image is generated very quickly. But if you start doing multiple masks, it switches to a lot of CPU instead. I will give Adobe credit for slowly improving. They just don't improve as fast as other companies.

You're referring to a VERY recent Resolve update that was released only a couple weeks ago:

Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:56 am

What's new in DaVinci Resolve Studio 17.1
• Support for Apple Silicon based Mac OS systems.
• H.265 4:2:2 hardware decode support on Apple Silicon.
• H.265 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Intel decode support in DaVinci Resolve Studio.
• H.265 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Intel encode support in DaVinci Resolve Studio.
• Support for GPU decoding of RED clips in OpenCL processing mode.
• Option to always perform copy and paste actions on selected color nodes.
• General performance and stability improvements.
 
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TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30
Yes, but no one uses the Intel GPU. The first thing most people do when they build or buy a PC is to put in an Nvidia or AMD GPU because overall they are much more powerful. I don't have any of those Intel processors because overall, they're much weaker than the latest AMD processors. I'm not sure who would take out their more powerful GPU just to use the internal Intel GPU. Plus, you need the software to recognize and use the features of the GPU. Just because Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, etc. support the codec doesn't mean the software supports it. If it's easy to flip back and forth between choosing which GPU to use for decoding/encode, that would be fantastic. I would love to hear from Resolve users how fast it is to edit h.265 10-bit 4:2:2 EOS R5 footage with the latest Intel processors.

Hopefully next week I'll know.

You don't need to take out your GPU. You go into preferences. Set decode to use Intel Quicksync. The main GPU remains for all the other work.

I think you'd be surprised how many people over the years have used Quicksync. Both Premiere and Resolve supported hardware encoding much earlier for Quicksync than anything else.

If you go to Puget Systems they have a test they did last year comparing an AMD 3900x with an Nvidia 3800 versus an Intel 10900k using Quick Sync. The test didn't factor in 4.2.2 but it'll give you an idea how fast Quick Sync decode can be.
 

dirtyvu

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 7, 2019
56
37
Hopefully next week I'll know.

You don't need to take out your GPU. You go into preferences. Set decode to use Intel Quicksync. The main GPU remains for all the other work.

I think you'd be surprised how many people over the years have used Quicksync. Both Premiere and Resolve supported hardware encoding much earlier for Quicksync than anything else.

If you go to Puget Systems they have a test they did last year comparing an AMD 3900x with an Nvidia 3800 versus an Intel 10900k using Quick Sync. The test didn't factor in 4.2.2 but it'll give you an idea how fast Quick Sync decode can be.

Can you point to an article? I found this article (https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...264-H-265-Hardware-Encoding-Performance-1778/) but it doesn't detail any 10-bit 4:2:2 decoding/encoding. Intel QuickSync didn't look good compared to the other cards.
 

TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30
Can you point to an article? I found this article (https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...264-H-265-Hardware-Encoding-Performance-1778/) but it doesn't detail any 10-bit 4:2:2 decoding/encoding. Intel QuickSync didn't look good compared to the other cards.

The test is from last year and doesn't deal with 4.2.2. If they're doing that test they would likely be under NDA until next week. Here is the test I was talking about


As a part of our testing, one of the things we wanted to look at in particular was how GPU decoding compared to the Intel Quick Sync decoding that has been a part of Premiere Pro for a long time. While Quick Sync did appear to have a slight edge with H.264 media in some situations, GPU decoding had a similar edge for HEVC footage. In the end, our conclusion is that GPU and Quick Sync decoding are pretty much on par with each other.

IF we get similar performance with 4.2.2 that solves the R5 playback issue.
 
Prores won't be smaller than HEVC. The whole point of HEVC is it's compact.

I don't see a serious data rate difference between the C70 and the R5 when looking at apples to apples

XF-AVC 4096 x 2160 YCC422 @25p (10bit/410Mbps Intra)

4K (29.97p/25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): ALL-I Approx. 470 Mbps

If anything the R5 might be lower at 25p.
I should have clarified. All formats on the C70 work flawlessly in premier pro. The R5 needs proress transcoding or proxies.
But the c70 4k120 is a lot smaller than the R5.
 

dirtyvu

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 7, 2019
56
37
The test is from last year and doesn't deal with 4.2.2. If they're doing that test they would likely be under NDA until next week. Here is the test I was talking about




IF we get similar performance with 4.2.2 that solves the R5 playback issue.

Yes, I can't wait to see some results!

I did see this in the comments from a user:

Thanks for this test. I think what's missing here is the look at the situation for 4k material with 10-bit 4:2:2 colorsampling in h.265, which you find in more and more cameras. And all NVIDIA Geforce GPU's - even the new ones - do not support hardware accelaration of 4:2:2 material. They support 10-bit 4:2:0 (like the mavic pro 2 has), or even 4:4:4 but not 4:2:2. And also Quick-Sync only support h.265 4:2:2 10-bit in it's latest mobile processors (Ice & Tiger Lake) but in the desktop processors only with the Rocket Lake generation which will come out next year. So you have to keep that in mind, when planning a new Editing PC. What I do not know: what about the professional NVIDIA GPUs and in generell AMD GPUs. Maybe you have other informations about that.
 

TravelerNick

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 4, 2020
56
30
That's the problem nothing else does this on PCs. Nvidia has published their decode/encode chart and nothing for anything they've made. Not consumer. Not Quadro. AMD I haven't found anything similar.
 
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