Crazy... go Nikon?

[psolberg]

wow you guys are still talking about this? last year we settled this matter and I'm surprise some are still in denial.


http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/Canon_EOS_5D_MkIII_vs_Nikon_D800_dynamic_range.html

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html
see page 2

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120906_6-Canon5DM3-noise-vs-NikonD800E.html
(paid link but guess who wins based on preview below... :)

Nikon rules the roost, even ignoring the extra 14 megapixels the D800 offers over the 5D Mark III.

-Lloyd Chambers
Amen brother!

besides, having shot both, there is no contest. the 5DmkIII is a noise machine in the shadows. you can argue about proper exposure, etc. But the fact remains, when you're pushing exposure, for whatever the reason, the canon 5DmkIII shadows will punish you, which is partially why I no longer shoot with it (the other being low resolution) 8)

 

[Hobby Shooter]

wow you guys are still talking about this? last year we settled this matter and I'm surprise some are still in denial.


http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/Canon_EOS_5D_MkIII_vs_Nikon_D800_dynamic_range.html

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html
see page 2

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120906_6-Canon5DM3-noise-vs-NikonD800E.html
(paid link but guess who wins based on preview below... :)

Nikon rules the roost, even ignoring the extra 14 megapixels the D800 offers over the 5D Mark III.

-Lloyd Chambers
Amen brother!

besides, having shot both, there is no contest. the 5DmkIII is a noise machine in the shadows. you can argue about proper exposure, etc. But the fact remains, when you're pushing exposure, for whatever the reason, the canon 5DmkIII shadows will punish you, which is partially why I no longer shoot with it (the other being low resolution) 8)

Low resolution, compared to what? The D4?

 

[Pi]

I think that this issue is exaggerated by both sides.

It is true that the Canon sensors have significantly higher read noise than the Sony ones even when you expose to the right; actually, the DXO measurements are taken "with ETTR". Here are some computations based on DXO data: http://www.sensorgen.info/. This has been demonstrated over and over again. I have seen it in my images many times but still in a tiny percentage of them. When you need that extra DR, Nikon wins. It is frustrating that Canon is the only major manufacturer with such noisy sensors.

It is also true that most users will never notice it, and that even experienced and demanding users will rarely see it, unless they do some specialized type of photography. It is also true that many users do not know how to expose well not only to reduce the read noise but also to reduce the overall one, even at ISO 100, for images which would undergo extreme pp.

To jump the ship just for that seems unwise to me. There are many other factors.

 

[Aglet]

Aglet, how about you provide us a beautiful RAW file that you spend time, effort, and possibly money to get first? Please do show us the very best d800 RAW file of you very best work and then I promise I will do the same.

It must be your best, no less.

how about something easier, you show us some 100 iso test shots from your 5d2.... if you still have it.
Blank sheet of white paper, exposed at 1 EV values from +4 to -10, no Lum or Chroma NR, black level crusher set to ZERO, pushed in ACR or LR, until visible banding appears at 100%
Show us what EV levels you no longer get FPN.
Do and post that, then I'll do the same with a $400 Nikon.
OK, you go'head and do yours. We're waiting.

 

[RLPhoto]

Aglet, how about you provide us a beautiful RAW file that you spend time, effort, and possibly money to get first? Please do show us the very best d800 RAW file of you very best work and then I promise I will do the same.

It must be your best, no less.

how about something easier, you show us some 100 iso test shots from your 5d2.... if you still have it.
Blank sheet of white paper, exposed at 1 EV values from +4 to -10, no Lum or Chroma NR, black level crusher set to ZERO, pushed in ACR or LR, until visible banding appears at 100%
Show us what EV levels you no longer get FPN.
Do and post that, then I'll do the same with a $400 Nikon.
OK, you go'head and do yours. We're waiting.

Just like your avatar, you spoke first and loudly. How can you expect of others w/o you doing the same first? Give us your best work out of the d800 and Ill try to match one of equal caliber out of my canon camera.

 

[Aglet]

To jump the ship just for that seems unwise to me. There are many other factors.

There certainly are many factors.
But, for some of us, clean raw files that provide maximum malleability in post are worth the effort and cost to ADD the gear, not necessarily SWITCH to it.
My 5d2 was a PoS so I sold it and got a FF Nikon that kicks butt for clean files. Extra DR and MP are a bonus. 20 to 25MP were enough for what I needed in resolution, but I really needed NO pattern noise. Certainly miss the 5d2's superior live-view, D800's LV is terrible in low light.

I still use Canon crop bodies, along with a few Nikon and Pentax too. I use whatever tool I LIKE or is best for the shot.
I still like using Canons better than Nikons, but Pentax is very nice too if you don't mind lack of glass options.
If Canon makes a FF body as good as the Nikon for clean low ISO raw files, I'll likely buy it, especially if it arrives this year and doesn't cost more than $3-4k.

 

[Loswr]

Know how I know that Mikael Residal is gone? This DR pissing contest happens about once every two weeks, instead of about once every two days. That, and no more pics of barbecues. Honestly, even the barbecues were more interesting than this constant repetitive crap.

Agree to disagree, or I have a hunch that more people will start disappearing - both 11-stoppers and 14-stoppers.

</rant>

 

[bdunbar79]

Aglet, how about you provide us a beautiful RAW file that you spend time, effort, and possibly money to get first? Please do show us the very best d800 RAW file of you very best work and then I promise I will do the same.

It must be your best, no less.

how about something easier, you show us some 100 iso test shots from your 5d2.... if you still have it.
Blank sheet of white paper, exposed at 1 EV values from +4 to -10, no Lum or Chroma NR, black level crusher set to ZERO, pushed in ACR or LR, until visible banding appears at 100%
Show us what EV levels you no longer get FPN.
Do and post that, then I'll do the same with a $400 Nikon.
OK, you go'head and do yours. We're waiting.

versus real-life, actual photos of things...

 

[Aglet]

Know how I know that Mikael Residal is gone? This DR pissing contest happens about once every two weeks, instead of about once every two days. That, and no more pics of barbecues. Honestly, even the barbecues were more interesting than this constant repetitive crap.

Agree to disagree, or I have a hunch that more people will start disappearing - both 11-stoppers and 14-stoppers.

</rant>

I can certainly agree with you on this.

OK, let's take this, er..., discussion outside. ;D

 

[Pi]

But, for some of us, clean raw files that provide maximum malleability in post are worth the effort and cost to ADD the gear, not necessarily SWITCH to it.

For some of us, accurate AF and specialized lenses not available for Nikon, just to name a few, are good enough reasons to stay with Canon (only).

 

[J.R.]

Know how I know that Mikael Residal is gone? This DR pissing contest happens about once every two weeks, instead of about once every two days. That, and no more pics of barbecues. Honestly, even the barbecues were more interesting than this constant repetitive crap.

Agree to disagree, or I have a hunch that more people will start disappearing - both 11-stoppers and 14-stoppers.

</rant>

I can certainly agree with you on this.

OK, let's take this, er..., discussion outside. ;D

No No ... it's dark outside, you won't be able to recover 5 stops with a Canon camera

 

[Hobby Shooter]

Know how I know that Mikael Residal is gone? This DR pissing contest happens about once every two weeks, instead of about once every two days. That, and no more pics of barbecues. Honestly, even the barbecues were more interesting than this constant repetitive crap.

Agree to disagree, or I have a hunch that more people will start disappearing - both 11-stoppers and 14-stoppers.

</rant>

I hope people will stay. I learn a lot even from the pointless discussions 8)

 

[psolberg]

Stockholm syndrome kicks in hard :

I've switched to Nikon, and mirror-less and with Olympus now after being with Sony. Canon isn't the only game in town any more and that's a good thing for competition benefits us all. When the successor to the D800 and 5DmkIII arrives I will yet again re-evaluate the gear and switch if I see a compelling reason.

Why some of you are so stuck in a camera system is beyond me specially when long are the days where they were the only real choice. As of today, I'm so pleased with the D800 because nothing else in the 35mm realm even approaches it for what I do, specially from canon. The only other time I felt this way was when the 5DmkII came out sporting super detailed images when some others were going bananas about shooting in dark closets with the lights off. Definitively not my boat. Today the D800 is my ideal 5DsmkIII, just made by somebody else I couldn't care less what logo it has on the strap.

Low resolution, compared to what? The D4?

compared to everything full frame from EVERYBODY ;p

I'm pretty much used to 36MP at this point such that anything else seems like a toy in comparison. The benefits of oversampling are well documented in Lloyd Chambers many articles on the matter and I'm sold on the concept of 50+MP bodies which I can hardly wait for.
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130223_3-lenses-for-high-res-digital.html
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130307_3-oversampling-RX100.html

Trust me, canon will inevitably release a 30+MP sensor, personally I'm hoping for a 50+ and everybody here crying about how it doesn't matter to have more MP will then go buy it and make a shrine to it.

If anything, both Nikon/Canon should move up the food chain and start looking at MF sensors and even higher resolutions.

 

[Pi]

Why some of you are so stuck in a camera system is beyond me specially when long are the days where they were the only real choice.

Maybe because we are stuck to a lens system and consider the camera an accessory?

 

[kubelik]

I finally got a great deal on trade-in gear and made the switch from 5DII to 5D Mark III ... and I gotta say, if the D800 is any better, then it must be an insanely good camera. did some shooting at 1-stop underexposed at ISO 6400 last night with the new 35mm f/2 IS and yes, while the blacks are a bit crushed (I feel this also has something to do with the lens, the 35 f/2 IS is ridiculously contrasty, maybe almost a little too much so), there is excellent detail in the areas where it matters and the files from the 5D Mark III clean up far nicer than the ones from the II in terms of noise reduction. back when I was comparison shopping, it looked like the 5D Mark III had a 2/3-stop advantage over the 5D Mark II in terms of sensor performance based on web charts (dpreview and the like), but I'm finding in real-world usage, it's functionally a 1, maybe 1-1/3 stop advantage in terms of true usability.

I haven't done enough architectural/landscape work with it yet to tell if the dynamic range is improved over the 5D II, but from the bit of work I have done so far, it looks pretty good. I've shot far more restrictive film formats before so dynamic range, limited or not, doesn't bother me. I do think more is always better, but for those folks on here clamoring that the dynamic range limitations of the Canon are a deal-breaker are definitely exaggerating. please look at the work of Galen Rowell to see how dynamic range is controlled at the point of capture. and if you claim that it's too cumbersome, remember that half the time he was photographing in locations that he either had to ski to get to, hike to get to, or be roped in to get to.

 

[Albi86]

Why some of you are so stuck in a camera system is beyond me specially when long are the days where they were the only real choice.

Maybe because we are stuck to a lens system and consider the camera an accessory?

That's hypocrisy. If cameras were accessories, we would all be still shooting with our back-in-the-day-amazing 350D.

The truth is that you need a camera, a lens and a photographer to take a picture - and as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, the same is true for the IQ. Moreover, with post-processing being now a more and more fundamental step of a photographic workflow, sensors and the malleability of their RAW output are becoming a more and more crucial factor in determining the final result. The days when the comparisons were between cameras' JPG outputs are long gone. The days when Canon cameras and lenses were the absolute best are long gone too. Now the competition is very even - Canon leads in certain areas but lags in others. IQ is an area where Canon right now lags pretty badly - then of course it's up to each individual person to decide how relevant this fact is. But it's still a fact.

 

[NorthDallas40]

IQ is an area where Canon right now lags pretty badly - then of course it's up to each individual person to decide how relevant this fact is. But it's still a fact.

To say its a fact that Canon lags badly in IQ means your statement can be backed up with facts and data. What do you base your statement on (not including the Nikon-biased DXO ratings).

 

[Pi]

Why some of you are so stuck in a camera system is beyond me specially when long are the days where they were the only real choice.

Maybe because we are stuck to a lens system and consider the camera an accessory?

That's hypocrisy. If cameras were accessories, we would all be still shooting with our back-in-the-day-amazing 350D.

Actually, I was shooting with the 350D until three years ago. It was not the right accessory however because its sensor was 40% of what most Canon lenses can cover.

The truth is that you need a camera, a lens and a photographer to take a picture - and as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, the same is true for the IQ. Moreover, with post-processing being now a more and more fundamental step of a photographic workflow, sensors and the malleability of their RAW output are becoming a more and more crucial factor in determining the final result. The days when the comparisons were between cameras' JPG outputs are long gone. The days when Canon cameras and lenses were the absolute best are long gone too. Now the competition is very even - Canon leads in certain areas but lags in others. IQ is an area where Canon right now lags pretty badly - then of course it's up to each individual person to decide how relevant this fact is. But it's still a fact.

IQ depends on having good sensor, no major dust problems, no major vibration problems at 1/30, a body that AF's well, just to name a few, and ... well, good lenses and a large variety of them. I can see Canon lagging in sensors but Nikon has its own problems with all the rest.

 

[Albi86]

I agree that no system is perfect, but I disagree on your definition of IQ. In my view, IQ depends on sensor and lenses only.

Focusing is of course a primary element too, but do you think anything from Canon below the 5D3 has impressive AF compared to the competition? I don't think so - quite the opposite actually.

When you evaluate a piece of hardware/software you look at what it can do; what you actually do with it depends on you alone and on your personal taste/scopes. We buy gear to expand our possibilities, so a product offering me more possibilities is more attractive to me.

 

[psolberg]

Why some of you are so stuck in a camera system is beyond me specially when long are the days where they were the only real choice.

Maybe because we are stuck to a lens system and consider the camera an accessory?

That's hypocrisy. If cameras were accessories, we would all be still shooting with our back-in-the-day-amazing 350D.

Actually, I was shooting with the 350D until three years ago. It was not the right accessory however because its sensor was 40% of what most Canon lenses can cover.

The truth is that you need a camera, a lens and a photographer to take a picture - and as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, the same is true for the IQ. Moreover, with post-processing being now a more and more fundamental step of a photographic workflow, sensors and the malleability of their RAW output are becoming a more and more crucial factor in determining the final result. The days when the comparisons were between cameras' JPG outputs are long gone. The days when Canon cameras and lenses were the absolute best are long gone too. Now the competition is very even - Canon leads in certain areas but lags in others. IQ is an area where Canon right now lags pretty badly - then of course it's up to each individual person to decide how relevant this fact is. But it's still a fact.

IQ depends on having good sensor, no major dust problems, no major vibration problems at 1/30, a body that AF's well, just to name a few, and ... well, good lenses and a large variety of them. I can see Canon lagging in sensors but Nikon has its own problems with all the rest.

funny that hasn't been my experience shooting both systems : canon lacks some glass Nikon has, and vice versa. In this day and age, both systems are so well stocked, you're really just buying your camera choice 8)

To jump the ship just for that seems unwise to me. There are many other factors.

I've done it. no big deal. It is actually quite trivial specially because both sides are so comparable. you give up some, you gain some. When the D900 vs 5Dmk4 game starts 3-4 years from now, I'll revaluate my choice.

I have no loyalty to a brand that has no loyalty for me. and don't suffer from gear divorce regrets. I'll use what I consider superior. That doesn't mean I'll switch every month, but once I need to upgrade, all brands are fair game. The canon monopoly was broken long ago. Heck I shoot a m4/3 Olympus when I don't use my big DSLRs. couldn't care less that it doesn't have Nikon/canon logos on it 8)

When you evaluate a piece of hardware/software you look at what it can do; what you actually do with it depends on you alone and on your personal taste/scopes. We buy gear to expand our possibilities, so a product offering me more possibilities is more attractive to me.

totally agreed. when I decided to switch to the D800, it was not because of what it can't do. I did it because of what it could do which I couldn't (and still can't) find on the canon system. For me, the D800 was what I hoped the 5DmkIII was and given how awesome the 5DII was, the choice was simple for me since I was upgrading anyway. The D800 upgraded everything I loved about the 5DII when I had the original 5D. 5DII & D800 will remain legendary in my book. I just don't understand why people just don't get over the fact not everybody is after the same qualities in a camera. I certainly understand why 1Dx shooters won't touch anything else even if such camera is utterly meaningless for some of us.