DPreview First impression review 5D IV

[Bennymiata]

I thought Rishi's review was pretty good and well balanced, but I thought he gushed a bit too much about DPAF.
I switched expensive video cameras to use at weddings and events to a 70d after trying DPAF, so I can't really blame you Rishi.

If you have used lots of different cameras, you will realise that Canons aren't the best at everything. Having used other brands over the years and pp'd many photos from Nikons and Sonys, I choose to use my 5d3 and 70d, even though Sonys have better dr and Nikons better servo focussing, because the photos on Canons look gorgeous and Canons just keep working and working.
I think the majority of pros would agree with me.

There is no product made anywhere in the world that is demonstrably better than all of its competitors in every area of operation, so get over genuine critisms and just accept that even the new 5d4 is not 100% perfect.
Having said that, I will be buying 1 or 2 of them.

 

[Viggo]

Yes I have shot weddings.

I don't like it.

And afma is not that complicated if you use the right tools btw. And that it only works at a certain distance is also wrong. For Sigma it's true though, lol.

 

[Loswr]

I'm a single point AF-C, back button focus user. Sometimes 3D tracking.

Seems like I should stick with Nikon for continuous AF.

Definitely, because if you believe DPR, Nikon's AF-C has the uncanny ability to find and lock onto a subject and never ever let go even if the subject is moving at warp speed, and you can underexpose by 5 stops for a faster shutter speed and push the images in post with no penalty*, whereas Canon has AI Servo tracking and sometimes you might get lucky if you're using the right kind of lens.

*Does not apply to Nikon's flagship D5, but that's okay because using fast shutter speeds isn't really important to that camera's user base, so shhhhhh, don't mention the banding!

 

[Eldar]

I'm a single point AF-C, back button focus user. Sometimes 3D tracking.

Seems like I should stick with Nikon for continuous AF.

Definitely, because if you believe DPR, Nikon's AF-C has the uncanny ability to find and lock onto a subject and never ever let go even if the subject is moving at warp speed, and you can underexpose by 5 stops for a faster shutter speed and push the images in post with no penalty*, whereas Canon has AI Servo tracking and sometimes you might get lucky if you're using the right kind of lens.

*Does not apply to Nikon's flagship D5, but that's okay because using fast shutter speeds isn't really important to that camera's user base, so shhhhhh, don't mention the banding!

Eehhh ... I must be doing something wrong ... Because on both the 5DSR and 1DX-II, the tracking seems to be working quite well ... Maybe I should check if some calibration thing is off :

 

[Sporgon]

It's not about 5 stops. That was 2-3 stops, in that example -- exactly how much the *camera* decided to underexpose, not me.



That's *exactly* how I shoot. But that doesn't stop the camera, especially Canons, from underexposing 2-3 stops in backlit scenarios.

Err.....so if you know that and you are an experienced Canon shooter why don't you dial in the appropriate EC ? I think that is rather Viggo's point; except judging by your statement above you do know where you sit in EV, you just choose to do nothing about it and say "it's what the camera set". I have never heard any professional photographer ( and as you shoot all these weddings I presume you are pro) say "it's all f*****d up but it's what the camera set".

In your reviews I have never once read how much you can "over expose" with the Canon, especially now ACR can recover, or should I say read that highlight headroom. True the histograms and 'blinkies' don't help in this regard even if you set your jpeg ( to get a representative LCD display) 'picture style' setting to a very subdued 'natural', but you have to know how much that histogram is kidding you regarding off-the-right-side data.

But I agree in the wedding shot of the bride and groom walking into the marquee there is no time to be chimping, but in this situation I would have bracketed if, as you stated, I was particularly wanting the 'brokeh of the trees outside', so you knew this shot was coming.

However I also agree that accessing AEB is too slow. I'd like to see this feature added to the M-Fn or SET button, so you could quickly set the camera to a pre set AEB setting, and then change back out of it when you don't want it any more. Perhaps you'd like to point this out to Canon on our behalf

 

[Orangutan]

Not having read any of your reviews, and having read many of Neuroanatomist's posts, I was initially inclined to believe he was being a just a bit snarky and hyperbolic. However, your responses to his posts are not helping your credibility.

For example, this is unprofessional, unscientific rhetoric.

I'm sorry you feel that our merely pointing out shortcomings constitutes bias against an entire brand

Does 'I'm sorry' mean something different here on CR? I'm genuinely confused.

You're making the false assumption that all criticism here is fanboi whining; while some clearly is, there's also some that clearly is not. I'm trying to help you understand that, and you don't seem to care.

Your quote above came across as sarcastic, not as sincere. You start with a straw-man argument, "you feel our merely pointing out shortcomings constitutes bias..." and then add a sarcastic "I'm sorry." Again, I haven't read your reviews, so they may be gems for all I know. I'm merely telling you that you're not defending them very well.

The point Neuroanatomist has made (the truth of which I can't currently judge), is that you're not "merely pointing out shortcomings," as if you had done so in a purely objective way, or as if it could be done in a purely objective way. All reviews and tests have unintentional bias, we get that. As I read the criticism, they are accusing you of two major errors: (1) failing to learn the Canon product well enough to use it as described in the manual; i.e. trying to apply Nikon-centric principles to the Canon product, instead of learning it for what it is; (2) choosing which features and qualities should be emphasized based on which brand wins that particular battle. You need to engage with these complaints professionally, not emotionally. When you lash out emotionally at critique, whether that critique is valid or not, it makes me wonder if your other work is also emotionally tainted or biased.

To reiterate once again: I'm criticizing your defense of your reviews, not the reviews themselves,which I have not read.

 

[Loswr]

Err.....so if you know that and you are an experienced Canon shooter why don't you dial in the appropriate EC ? I think that is rather Viggo's point; except judging by your statement above you do know where you sit in EV, you just choose to do nothing about it and say "it's what the camera set". I have never heard any professional photographer ( and as you shoot all these weddings I presume you are pro) say "it's all f*****d up but it's what the camera set".

Wait...what? You mean, if you bend a nail it's not the hammer's fault? WTF?!?

However I also agree that accessing AEB is too slow. I'd like to see this feature added to the M-Fn or SET button, so you could quickly set the camera to a pre set AEB setting, and then change back out of it when you don't want it any more. Perhaps you'd like to point this out to Canon on our behalf

You can set up a C mode with your preferred AEB settings, then it's simply a turn of the mode dial to turn AEB on/off.

 

[Sporgon]

However I also agree that accessing AEB is too slow. I'd like to see this feature added to the M-Fn or SET button, so you could quickly set the camera to a pre set AEB setting, and then change back out of it when you don't want it any more. Perhaps you'd like to point this out to Canon on our behalf

You can set up a C mode with your preferred AEB settings, then it's simply a turn of the mode dial to turn AEB on/off.

Yes good point, then it's very quick. The issue I've had with that though is that the C setting switches everything to what was registered, so say I have prepared it at f/5.6 on zero EC, but I'm shooting at f/2.8 with + 1 stop EC, when I switch there's some fiddling to do. But with a bit of forethought in setting the C option for the specific day, I agree, it's a fast enough work around.

 

[Loswr]

The point Neuroanatomist has made (the truth of which I can't currently judge), is that you're not "merely pointing out shortcomings," as if you had done so in a purely objective way, or as if it could be done in a purely objective way. All reviews and tests have unintentional bias, we get that. As I read the criticism, they are accusing you of two major errors: (1) failing to learn the Canon product well enough to use it as described in the manual; i.e. trying to apply Nikon-centric principles to the Canon product, instead of learning it for what it is; (2) choosing which features and qualities should be emphasized based on which brand wins that particular battle. You need to engage with these complaints professionally, not emotionally. When you lash out emotionally at critique, whether that critique is valid or not, it makes me wonder if your other work is also emotionally tainted or biased.

Exactly. Consider DPR's title choices...pre/reviews of the 1D X II: "Canon Catching Up?" and "Rock Solid"; DPR's review of the D5: "Setting New Standards". Canon is consistenly damned with faint praise.

Dynamic range and exposure latitude (the ability to underexpose by 5 stops then push in post) were critically important features for all photographers, and ISO invariance was a huge advantage...and in those areas, Canon fell far behind the competition. Then the D5 came out, and suddenly DR and extreme shadow lifting weren't really all that important for the target users. I mean...those things were important for the target users of the 7DII, which was not very good for DR and shadow pushing (well, it was good for a Canon camera, but the 'advantages of the aging Nikon D7000 were quite clear'). So according to DPR, it makes sense to criticize the 7DII for poor DR and exposure latitude while excusing the same things in the D5. Presumably because a fast-action high fps camera like the 7DII has a far different target user base than a fast-action high fps camera like the D5.

Also of note was that in the 7DII review of DR and exposure latitude, they added the Canon 5DIII "as a comparison against full-frame, which should have an advantage," (but of course the aging D7000 beat the 5DIII, too). However, in the Nikon D5 review for some reason they don't mention that for low ISO DR the APS-C sensor in the Canon 80D outperforms the FF sensor in the D5.

For the DR/shadow pushing section, DPR's D5 review states, "This content was originally published before we had access to Canon's EOS-1D X Mark II. We are currently working on an updated comparison." They've had access to a 1D X II for quite some time now – the full review of it was published over 2 months ago (and certainly they had it for some time before that), and their full review of the 1D X II states that it outperforms the D5 in those areas. But they haven't updated the D5 review to compare it to the 1D X II. I wonder why?

 

[Viggo]

It's not about 5 stops. That was 2-3 stops, in that example -- exactly how much the *camera* decided to underexpose, not me.



That's *exactly* how I shoot. But that doesn't stop the camera, especially Canons, from underexposing 2-3 stops in backlit scenarios.

Err.....so if you know that and you are an experienced Canon shooter why don't you dial in the appropriate EC ? I think that is rather Viggo's point; except judging by your statement above you do know where you sit in EV, you just choose to do nothing about it and say "it's what the camera set". I have never heard any professional photographer ( and as you shoot all these weddings I presume you are pro) say "it's all f*****d up but it's what the camera set".

In your reviews I have never once read how much you can "over expose" with the Canon, especially now ACR can recover, or should I say read that highlight headroom. True the histograms and 'blinkies' don't help in this regard even if you set your jpeg ( to get a representative LCD display) 'picture style' setting to a very subdued 'natural', but you have to know how much that histogram is kidding you regarding off-the-right-side data.

But I agree in the wedding shot of the bride and groom walking into the marquee there is no time to be chimping, but in this situation I would have bracketed if, as you stated, I was particularly wanting the 'brokeh of the trees outside', so you knew this shot was coming.

However I also agree that accessing AEB is too slow. I'd like to see this feature added to the M-Fn or SET button, so you could quickly set the camera to a pre set AEB setting, and then change back out of it when you don't want it any more. Perhaps you'd like to point this out to Canon on our behalf

Thank you! That was exactly what I meant. If you know the camera and know 2-3 stops here or there with the EC will correct it, why don't you?

i don't blame the camera for anything I can fix when using it.

 

[Orangutan]

It's not about 5 stops. That was 2-3 stops, in that example -- exactly how much the *camera* decided to underexpose, not me.

That's *exactly* how I shoot. But that doesn't stop the camera, especially Canons, from underexposing 2-3 stops in backlit scenarios.

Err.....so if you know that and you are an experienced Canon shooter why don't you dial in the appropriate EC ?

Thank you! That was exactly what I meant. If you know the camera and know 2-3 stops here or there with the EC will correct it, why don't you?

i don't blame the camera for anything I can fix when using it.

This isn't exactly fair: if the camera's meter is smart enough to nail exposure in all circumstances without EC that's great. The problem is that the camera doesn't know what my intentions are -- I may have wanted a silhouette, and I get a bright face and blown-out background instead. What's important is that there is a variety of metering options and that they are consistent so I can get the exposure I want. Otherwise, a reviewer will give higher ratings to those cameras which work best with his particular style of shooting. On a pro camera, so long as metering is predictable and consistent, it's good...at least until the AI-Psy feature is perfected.

 

[Viggo]

I think we agree. I know when the camera will do something that's different from what I want, I then compensate or correct it to my liking.

 

[rrcphoto]

I find page 7 incredibly misleading.

What other first impressions review goes on and whines about the prior camera.

Reading it quickly or looking at the photo examples you'd think it was the mark iv

 

[Loswr]

[quote author=Canon DLC]
Because of the pixel density on the 5D Mark IV’s 30.4MP sensor, which results in a smaller pixel, its 4K ‘crop factor’ is equivalent to that of a lens with approximately 1.74X the indicated focal length.
[/quote]

[quote author=Rishi et al. @ DPR]
The 5D Mark IV uses a native crop of the sensor for 4K capture, using a 4096 x 2160 pixel region of the sensor. This works out to a 1.64x crop relative to full frame...
[/quote]

[quote author=Rishi @ DPR]
But if you've been reading us for some time, you might know that we don't just read other sites and regurgitate claims. We're make really, really darn sure we're right about something before we say it, and that's usually after exhaustive vetting and testing ourselves.
[/quote]

Hey Rishi - well done with your usual great job of making really, really darn sure you're right about something before saying it!!

Here's a hint: the aspect ratio of Canon's 4K video crop is not the same as the aspect ratio of the entire sensor, so you can't just take the long-side measure of the 6720 x 4480 FF image and divide it by the long-side measure of the 4096 x 2160 4K video output to come up with the crop factor. I suggest that you do the math properly...or if that's too exhausting, you can read what Canon – and the rest of the Internet – say about the 5DIV's 4K crop factor and simply regurgitate that.

 

[scyrene]

Fwiw I didn't think the first impressions review was particularly bad, though I skimmed it. I do think, if Rishi is still listening, that posting pictures taken with the 5D3 is a bit odd. It's clearly stated underneath - but of what relevance are they? Especially the backlit one at sunset that's caused such consternation. If there are no shots taken with the new camera, don't include any shots (putting some in to show the shortcomings of the previous model *is* a little dodgy, in my view).

Second, I think the reaction to criticism - some valid, some invalid - has been surprisingly vehement. The internet is a tough place, and people can spout nonsense, and be rude. And that's bad - although I don't think CR is any worse than anywhere else. Having thin skin is no way to respond though. If you think that claims made here are outrageous or utterly ridiculous, just ignore them. Don't get angry and lash out at a whole community. Everyone needs to calm down and get some perspective.

On the subject of correct exposure, I am not a role model, but what's wrong with a bit of chimping? I've read the manual but never really got to grips with all the features, but shooting in manual mode I tend to do okay because I check the shots every so often, especially if the subject or light changes (I appreciate the images displayed on the LCD are not the raw data, but I know how far I can blow highlights in the preview and get them back later, just from practice). The only times I get caught out and under/overexpose massively is when I go from one situation to a radically different one, and forget to change my settings, which is my fault. Nobody is opposed to having more leeway to rescue failed shots (more shadow lifting capability being one way), but it's become a weird obsession of some people (Dpreview aren't as bad as some on the forums in that regard). It doesn't seem particularly hard to get things right enough most of the time... Of course learning all the twiddly bits to make things even better is a good idea. I must try that sometime ;D

 

[PureClassA]

Err.....so if you know that and you are an experienced Canon shooter why don't you dial in the appropriate EC ? I think that is rather Viggo's point; except judging by your statement above you do know where you sit in EV, you just choose to do nothing about it and say "it's what the camera set". I have never heard any professional photographer ( and as you shoot all these weddings I presume you are pro) say "it's all f*****d up but it's what the camera set".

Wait...what? You mean, if you bend a nail it's not the hammer's fault? WTF?!?

I wonder in everyone at DPReview also uses speedlites in Full Auto E-TTL all the time and then complains "The flash F'ed up the shot" too?

 

[PureClassA]

Eehhh ... I must be doing something wrong ... Because on both the 5DSR and 1DX-II, the tracking seems to be working quite well ... Maybe I should check if some calibration thing is off :

Thank God... I was afraid I was the only one! If you manage to fix yours and get the tracking to constantly fail, let me know how you do it?

 

[Loswr]

Eehhh ... I must be doing something wrong ... Because on both the 5DSR and 1DX-II, the tracking seems to be working quite well ... Maybe I should check if some calibration thing is off :

Thank God... I was afraid I was the only one! If you manage to fix yours and get the tracking to constantly fail, let me know how you do it?

No, no. You guys are totally misunderstanding what Rishi is saying. It's not that Canon AF tracking always fails or is consistently easily confused. In fact, Eldar's statement is aligned with Rishi's, sort of – Canon tracking works quite well. Sometimes. With long lenses. On Wednesdays.

But guys, you just have to go and shoot Nikon. Then you'll know. Nikon's class-leading, uncanny, spooky AF system can easily lock onto the 3rd median secondary covert feather of a raven's wing and track it unerringly as the raven flies around you in an unlit coal mine. It's just that good. So, while the Canon AF system is okay, the Nikon system is sheer, utter, never-miss-a-shot perfection.

 

[romanr74]

i start to really dislike the climate/tone in this forum...

 

[davidhfe]

i start to really dislike the climate/tone in this forum...

Especially since rishi's been pretty patient the last few posts. Chalk it up to just there being a higher s:n than normal bleeding over.