DPreview First impression review 5D IV

[docsmith]

Wow....this is both off the rails, somewhat entertaining, and somewhat informative all at the same time.

So...I stopped reading DPR years ago. I started out there when I bought my first digital camera in 2003, but somewhere around 2007-2009 I had simply found what I considered to better review websites. I cannot say I have used DPR to select gear or recommended DPR to anyone for several years. I still check it now and again, but definitely have not relied upon it. I do not say this to be intentionally hurtful, more of a statement of fact. If anything my intention is to get Rishi to take a step back and evaluate why a reader might go elsewhere.

Based on this thread, I just read the "First Impressions" article on the 5DIV. While I didn't find it awful or anything, I also did not find it overly informative compared to other articles I have read on the 5DIV. Of course some of the articles/videos I've seen are all "hype," so I do appreciate people that try to cut through and actually give impressions of the camera and what it can do, but as you will see below, my issue with what I read was too many "expectations" rather than actual "impressions," which is what I want. Of course, in line with the thread, I did find several "expectations" to be slanted negative. Which is really the entire "bias" argument.

Just to quote from Rishi's page 7:

"The 5D series of cameras were not without their faults though." You had not even really praised the 5D series, just called it your "trusted friend." I don't even find it necessary to mention faults as you are leading into what Canon tried to improve.

"The 5D Mark IV addresses a couple of the top complaints..." Not all? Seems like they addressed the entire list that had just been mentioned.

You then launch into 3 paragraphs on shadow recovery of the 5DIII, and then the fourth only kinda talking about the 5DIV. This is literally over half of the review at this point. As a reader, I only care about the 5DIV. All I want to hear is one or two sentences like "we expect better shadow recovery in the 5DIV" or, even better, "we are seeing better shadow recovery from the 5DIV, 5D users should rejoice!!!!" BTW, I think it is great that you got as good of a shot as you recovered as you did after "the camera" missed exposure. As for the fourth paragraph here, great examples of the faint praise and unnecessary comparisons to other brands. Such as "We do not expect ....caught up to Sony." This isn't even couched as an "impression" rather an "expectation." Save this for the review when you can compare sensor output. Plus, and perhaps a camera reviewer has a different perspective, but I don't care about Sony at this point. Maybe if actual tests show an otherworldly difference. I just care about the 5DIV. Way to premature for this comparative statement.

"Some photographers will also appreciate the enhanced ability of iTR ('Intelligent Tracking and Recognition') to track distant erratic subjects no matter where they move within the frame." Faint praise, this has been covered, but, again from a reader/5DIII user perspective, this is a new feature to the 5D series. It is all good news to me. Why did you not phrase it like that? Hey, "new feature to the 5D line! Its not perfect, but an improvement."

I really could keep going....things about not liking the new AF switch and Canon customization, "We expect significant, though not class-leading, improvements in dynamic range" again not being a real impression by an expectation that could still prove to be incorrect...

I do not want to list everything, as I want to head outside and have plans today, but the point is pretty simple. If someone where to go through and count negative statements vs positive, "impressions" vs "expectations", and align the two, my "expectation" is that the negative skew of the article, especially in "expectations" would be readily apparent. After reading it, I'd say well over half of page 7 was skewed negative in an "impression" article. Now, if the camera is obviously bad, I get it. But I doubt that is the case.

So, I am not looking for an argument. I barely care, you lost this reader a long time ago. But having already read several other "impression" articles/videos on the 5DIV, I really do find this to be unnecessarily negative and, worse, less informative than the others. There is good content (and some more negative "expectations" in pages 1-6), no doubt, but when you spend 4 of your first 7 paragraphs (the time when you want to pull readers in) talking about shadow recovery, what else do you expect?

 

[Speedster]

Jeez, this thread has turned into a complete car crash.

Unpleasant reading, frankly. And I'll not be the only one to think this.

 

[d]

Jeez, this thread has turned into a complete car crash.

Unpleasant reading, frankly. And I'll not be the only one to think this.

+1

 

[Sabaki]

So here I am, a Canon shooter.

Each of my 7 lenses bare the Canon brand, as do both my bodies, namely the 7Dii and the 6D. I have stated before that I felt the 7Dii has fallen short of the promo material released by Canon. but as a photographer whose options are limited to the Canon Eco-system, the 7Dii was my one and only option for what I wanted to shoot.

I absolutely adore my 6D with one caveat, the number and spread of the AF points. As such, the 5D IV is a body that has me interested as it will solve this problem and a few others (the button layout mirrors that of the 7Dii for instance).

What gets to me about DP Review articles in general, is that they normally argue the kit's performance in relation to gear in other eco systems. Why on Earth would the average user who is locked into a brand want to know that a feature from Sony, one from Nikon, Panasonic, Fuji outperforms the equivalent feature in the item being reviewed? The 5D IV isn't an entry level body and I will go out on a limb here and say that most who are starting their digital photography journey, may look at the entry level offerings.

I would enjoy an article that focuses on how the body would fit into the system it was designed for, which will allow me to appreciate it for what it does. Perhaps a paragraph or two in the conclusion can be used to evaluate against offerings from other brands.

 

[3kramd5]

Why on Earth would the average user who is locked into a brand...

Why on earth would any average user be locked into a brand?

Users are free to choose what gear they buy. Owning every EF lens ever built doesn't prevent you from buying a Nikon camera and lens. Avoiding doing so is a reasonable choice, but it is a choice nonetheless. In your case, while the lion's share of your equipment works together, you did choose to purchase incompatible items (EF-S lens + 6D). Others (like myself) have chosen to buy myriad brands.

I expect consumers like me and you are in the extreme minority. When most ILC users buy a camera, it comes with the only lens they'll ever mount to it (disclaimer: I believe this used to be true, but it may no longer be), and sites like DPR must cater to the vast majority, which invites brand comparisons.

 

[scyrene]

Your own community labels you a troll.

Mate, you've come under some unfair fire on these forums, but you really aren't doing yourself any favours by responding so belligerently.

And while Neuro can be abrasive sometimes, the only people calling him a troll are the newbies who set up accounts here to make ridiculous claims about Sony DR or shout 'Canon is doomed' and then run away when people reply. Oh, and one or two longstanding members whose own posts qualify much more comfortably as trolling (perhaps you should read a few thousand more posts to see what I mean).

I dunno why you're bothering to post here at all, really. You seem pretty confident in your position, fine. Ignore the things you consider ridiculous, and move on.

 

[PhotographyFirst]

I find it curious why some DPR staff are always attracted to negativity. I've posted positive comments, helpful feedback, praise for their web design, etc. I have never once had a comment back, like "Thanks!". IN fact, they have never once responded to anything nice I ever post in the comments. In the rare occasion that I do post something even slightly negative concerning a stance or content (no personal attacks ever), my post/comment is either deleted or given a snarky or angry response by DPR staff. The couple of staff there that I had excellent interactions with seem to now be gone these days. Their new editor Chris is really great though, I hope he stays that way and doesn't end up leaving or becoming negative.

I actually am pretty impressed with Rishi's knowledge of cameras and camera tech. I am not one of the Canon Rumors bashers, yet it seems like my DPR account is chopped liver to them. They probably have some troll label they can see with their DPR accounts and have me labeled a troll because I disagreed with them at one point. Negating all the helpful feedback and instruction I have provided to users of the website.

Edit: Correction. One of their past editors always responded to every positive comment I ever made. Really friendly and helpful person.

 

[tron]

I find it curious why some DPR staff are always attracted to negativity. I've posted positive comments, helpful feedback, praise for their web design, etc. I have never once had a comment back, like "Thanks!". IN fact, they have never once responded to anything nice I ever post in the comments. In the rare occasion that I do post something even slightly negative concerning a stance or content (no personal attacks ever), my post/comment is either deleted or given a snarky or angry response by DPR staff. The couple of staff there that I had excellent interactions with seem to now be gone these days. Their new editor Chris is really great though, I hope he stays that way and doesn't end up leaving or becoming negative.

I actually am pretty impressed with Rishi's knowledge of cameras and camera tech. I am not one of the Canon Rumors bashers, yet it seems like my DPR account is chopped liver to them. They probably have some troll label they can see with their DPR accounts and have me labeled a troll because I disagreed with them at one point. Negating all the helpful feedback and instruction I have provided to users of the website.

Edit: Correction. One of their past editors always responded to every positive comment I ever made. Really friendly and helpful person.

There is really no reason to spend time on DPReview forums. The quality of many members is next to bottom and now you practically say something close to that about DPReview staff.

 

[Pookie]

I find it curious why some DPR staff are always attracted to negativity. I've posted positive comments, helpful feedback, praise for their web design, etc. I have never once had a comment back, like "Thanks!". IN fact, they have never once responded to anything nice I ever post in the comments. In the rare occasion that I do post something even slightly negative concerning a stance or content (no personal attacks ever), my post/comment is either deleted or given a snarky or angry response by DPR staff. The couple of staff there that I had excellent interactions with seem to now be gone these days. Their new editor Chris is really great though, I hope he stays that way and doesn't end up leaving or becoming negative.

I actually am pretty impressed with Rishi's knowledge of cameras and camera tech. I am not one of the Canon Rumors bashers, yet it seems like my DPR account is chopped liver to them. They probably have some troll label they can see with their DPR accounts and have me labeled a troll because I disagreed with them at one point. Negating all the helpful feedback and instruction I have provided to users of the website.

Edit: Correction. One of their past editors always responded to every positive comment I ever made. Really friendly and helpful person.

There is really no reason to spend time on DPReview forums. The quality of many members is next to bottom and now you practically say something close to that about DPReview staff.

By the same token you could say CR forum members are equal. Just take a look at 11 pages of total BS from hobbyist forum junkies. Disgusting display...

 

[Loswr]

Why on Earth would the average user who is locked into a brand...

Why on earth would any average user be locked into a brand?

Users are free to choose what gear they buy. Owning every EF lens ever built doesn't prevent you from buying a Nikon camera and lens. Avoiding doing so is a reasonable choice, but it is a choice nonetheless. In your case, while the lion's share of your equipment works together, you did choose to purchase incompatible items (EF-S lens + 6D). Others (like myself) have chosen to buy myriad brands.

I expect consumers like me and you are in the extreme minority. When most ILC users buy a camera, it comes with the only lens they'll ever mount to it (disclaimer: I believe this used to be true, but it may no longer be), and sites like DPR must cater to the vast majority, which invites brand comparisons.

Both points have merit. Sabaki is correct that, in general, users of higher end gear are somewhat 'locked in', at least by gear type. If you have more than a minimal complement of dSLR lenses, it makes sense to buy a dSLR that's compatible with those lenses. Carrying two partial kits around isn't optimal, IMO. However, I suspect it's not uncommon for high-end users to have a different brand of another type of gear, e.g. a Sony or Fuji MILC kit and a Canon or Nikon dSLR kit, perhaps along with a high-end P&S from a different brand entirely.

When you (3kramd5) state that the vast majority if users buy a body + kit lens and that's all, I agree...and I agree that brand comparisons help in that case. But although only a small minority of dSLR users buy a 5-series body, a much larger proportion of them are likely to own multiple lenses...and thus, for 5-series bodies (and higher), brand comparisons are far less relevant. Perhaps interesting, but it reduces the utility of a review for a FF dSLR when much of the commentary is devoted to brand comparisons.

 

[3kramd5]

Of course that is true, and is something I considered (I started mentioning the D5/1Dx2 articles to discuss rarified ownership), however it remains true that DPReview's bread and butter is mass audience, and it's perhaps expecting too much for them to depart from their typical practices for high-end models unlikely to generate many click-thru sales at the parent company.

It's not the right site for that kind of nuance.

 

[Loswr]

Your own community labels you a troll.

Mate, you've come under some unfair fire on these forums, but you really aren't doing yourself any favours by responding so belligerently.

And while Neuro can be abrasive sometimes, the only people calling him a troll are the newbies who set up accounts here to make ridiculous claims about Sony DR or shout 'Canon is doomed' and then run away when people reply. Oh, and one or two longstanding members whose own posts qualify much more comfortably as trolling (perhaps you should read a few thousand more posts to see what I mean).

I dunno why you're bothering to post here at all, really. You seem pretty confident in your position, fine. Ignore the things you consider ridiculous, and move on.

Well, Rishi had to say something to excuse the fact that he was unable to respond to the substance of the discussion with fact-based technical information, right? So, he chose to go with shouting and name-calling.

 

[tr573]

You have no clue how the actual system works, yet you try to convince unsuspecting bystanders here that you know what you're talking about.

Rishi, where in all of this is your evidence that you have any clue how the actual system works? Throughout my posts, I am quoting direct statements by Canon, which they published for the purpose of educating their users. You seem to be relying on your own (mis)understanding of how the iTR system works, whereas I am relying on public statements by the company which developed the system. Are you saying that Rudy Winston, a technical representative for Canon, is wrong about how iTR works? Why should anyone – me or 'unsuspecting bystanders' – believe that you know more than Canon about how iTR works?

Ah, so first an initial subject is chosen and focused on *and only then* is a face attempted to be detected and then WHOOPS OMG JUST KIDDING I SHOULD PROBABLY FOCUS ON THAT RIGHT?!

Makes perfect sense.

Keep digging.

Ah, so you have no evidence to suggest that you understand how iTR works, but you believe it works differently than Canon says it does...and you think that sarcastically shouting your incorrect belief will make it true. News flash: it doesn't.

If you'd like to present some factual evidence to back up your claims that iTR functions differently than Canon describes, I'd be happy to listen and learn. In the meantime, continuing to demonstrate your lack of understanding merely makes you look foolish and petulant.

My first and foremost objective every morning I wake up is to provide meaningful and correct information to my audience.

Fail.

Doesn't iTR have some rudimentary face detect ability when in auto-select for the starting point(s)? Not that I would expect that to work on bikers wearing helmets, since there's no faces, but I'm pretty certain it does have the ability to pick out a face instead of "nearest thing"

Edit: Just went back and re-read the 7D2 manual. It actually makes it sound like it only does face detect in one-shot mode.

"On: The AF Point is automatically selected based not only on AF information, but also faces and other details.
In AI Servo AF mode, the camera remembers the color at the position it focused on first, then continues to track and focus the subject by switching AF points to track that color. This makes it easier to keep track of the subject than when only AF information is available. In One-Shot AF mode, EOS iTR AF makes focusing on people easier, so you can prioritize composition."

 

[scyrene]

Your own community labels you a troll.

Mate, you've come under some unfair fire on these forums, but you really aren't doing yourself any favours by responding so belligerently.

And while Neuro can be abrasive sometimes, the only people calling him a troll are the newbies who set up accounts here to make ridiculous claims about Sony DR or shout 'Canon is doomed' and then run away when people reply. Oh, and one or two longstanding members whose own posts qualify much more comfortably as trolling (perhaps you should read a few thousand more posts to see what I mean).

I dunno why you're bothering to post here at all, really. You seem pretty confident in your position, fine. Ignore the things you consider ridiculous, and move on.

Well, Rishi had to say something to excuse the fact that he was unable to respond to the substance of the discussion with fact-based technical information, right? So, he chose to go with shouting and name-calling.

No... that's what I don't get. He didn't have to say anything. While in principle having a Dpreview contributor here to answer criticisms seems a good idea, it's only massively inflamed things. Right or wrong, had he not replied, this thread would have gone off the boil within a couple of pages.

 

[tron]

I find it curious why some DPR staff are always attracted to negativity. I've posted positive comments, helpful feedback, praise for their web design, etc. I have never once had a comment back, like "Thanks!". IN fact, they have never once responded to anything nice I ever post in the comments. In the rare occasion that I do post something even slightly negative concerning a stance or content (no personal attacks ever), my post/comment is either deleted or given a snarky or angry response by DPR staff. The couple of staff there that I had excellent interactions with seem to now be gone these days. Their new editor Chris is really great though, I hope he stays that way and doesn't end up leaving or becoming negative.

I actually am pretty impressed with Rishi's knowledge of cameras and camera tech. I am not one of the Canon Rumors bashers, yet it seems like my DPR account is chopped liver to them. They probably have some troll label they can see with their DPR accounts and have me labeled a troll because I disagreed with them at one point. Negating all the helpful feedback and instruction I have provided to users of the website.

Edit: Correction. One of their past editors always responded to every positive comment I ever made. Really friendly and helpful person.

There is really no reason to spend time on DPReview forums. The quality of many members is next to bottom and now you practically say something close to that about DPReview staff.

By the same token you could say CR forum members are equal. Just take a look at 11 pages of total BS from hobbyist forum junkies. Disgusting display...

I think they describe DPR's BS...

 

[Loswr]

Doesn't iTR have some rudimentary face detect ability when in auto-select for the starting point(s)? Not that I would expect that to work on bikers wearing helmets, since there's no faces, but I'm pretty certain it does have the ability to pick out a face instead of "nearest thing"

Perhaps it seems logical that it should, and that's certainly the case for face detection with the full imaging sensor (MILCs and dSLR Live View shooting). However, the information from Canon indicates that's not how iTR works (read the prior quotes from Rudy Winston). Given that, it seems quite reasonable to expect some technical information to substantiate being "pretty certain" that Canon is wrong about their own technology. Please, feel free to share any such information you have...

 

[Sabaki]

Why on Earth would the average user who is locked into a brand...

Why on earth would any average user be locked into a brand?

Users are free to choose what gear they buy. Owning every EF lens ever built doesn't prevent you from buying a Nikon camera and lens. Avoiding doing so is a reasonable choice, but it is a choice nonetheless. In your case, while the lion's share of your equipment works together, you did choose to purchase incompatible items (EF-S lens + 6D). Others (like myself) have chosen to buy myriad brands.

I expect consumers like me and you are in the extreme minority. When most ILC users buy a camera, it comes with the only lens they'll ever mount to it (disclaimer: I believe this used to be true, but it may no longer be), and sites like DPR must cater to the vast majority, which invites brand comparisons.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I imagine the bulk of 3rd party wares one generally finds introduced to a system is normally lenses and 3rd party peripherals.
Those 3rd party products are generally engineered to function within a given brand's system. My contention is based on the premise that unlike lenses and peripherals, bodies are less frequently changed out for other brands.

P.S. The 10-22 was my 2nd lens purchase when I started photography and I'll be upgrading to the 16-35 f/4.0 or possibly f/.28 mkiii in November

 

[tr573]

Doesn't iTR have some rudimentary face detect ability when in auto-select for the starting point(s)? Not that I would expect that to work on bikers wearing helmets, since there's no faces, but I'm pretty certain it does have the ability to pick out a face instead of "nearest thing"

Perhaps it seems logical that it should, and that's certainly the case for face detection with the full imaging sensor (MILCs and dSLR Live View shooting). However, the information from Canon indicates that's not how iTR works (read the prior quotes from Rudy Winston). Given that, it seems quite reasonable to expect some technical information to substantiate being "pretty certain" that Canon is wrong about their own technology. Please, feel free to share any such information you have...

I edited after - I rechecked the 7D2 manual and it seems to indicate it only does face detection in one shot mode, not AI servo.

 

[romanr74]

this discussion is a shame, quite a few members damaged their credibility

 

[Loswr]

No... that's what I don't get. He didn't have to say anything. While in principle having a Dpreview contributor here to answer criticisms seems a good idea, it's only massively inflamed things. Right or wrong, had he not replied, this thread would have gone off the boil within a couple of pages.

Well, perhaps this time he really will take his marbles and go home. Then again, he'll likely be back. Looking over his postings, it seems there's something of a pattern: he shows up for a few days at a time and posts quite a bit, engaging in several arguments with multiple members...then he disappears for a while. Mid-February, early-May, and this current bout.

Hmmmm, showing up occasionally to start arguments...I know what sort of creature that sounds like. Of course, the timings are likely associated with previews/reviews being posted on DPR.