DPreview First impression review 5D IV

[3kramd5]

P.S. The 10-22 was my 2nd lens purchase when I started photography and I'll be upgrading to the 16-35 f/4.0 or possibly f/.28 mkiii in November

Nice, that could be a good one! I'll have to compare it with my 16-35/4.

My only point was that, short of some weird corporate contract, no user is locked in. Brand loyalty is a choice, however reasonable it may be.

 

[Loswr]

I edited after - I rechecked the 7D2 manual and it seems to indicate it only does face detection in one shot mode, not AI servo.

It does face detection in AI Servo, as well...during tracking. The manual defines iTR as: "intelligent Tracking and Recognition: The function that the metering sensor identifies the subject to make the AF points tracking it."

The point that Rishi fails to grasp is that based on Canon's description of iTR, when in AI Servo AF while allowing the camera to automatically select the initial AF point(s), data from the metering sensor are not used.

 

[Sabaki]

P.S. The 10-22 was my 2nd lens purchase when I started photography and I'll be upgrading to the 16-35 f/4.0 or possibly f/.28 mkiii in November

Nice, that could be a good one! I'll have to compare it with my 16-35/4.

My only point was that, short of some weird corporate contract, no user is locked in. Brand loyalty is a choice, however reasonable it may be.

Thanks! I only recently got the 6D and have to save before making other purchases.

You're 100% right about it being my choice. I do however thinks body or bodies generally form the heart of a system. Yes, there definitely was an increase in the number of photographers who bought a Sony with metabones adaptor and fitted Canon or Nikon lenses to it. I still feel this to be a lesser practice.

So I still contend that with an advanced body like a 5D, keep the review based on how it performs relative to its own Eco-system.

Afterall, Canon still dominate market share, walk away with arms full of awards annually. Not to mention that their lenses are responsible for those breathtaking images taken at SWC, RWC and Olympics. Does that alone not qualify their technology?

PS all the above is just be stating my opinion, not trying to be obnoxious or rude.

 

[rishi_sanyal]

I edited after - I rechecked the 7D2 manual and it seems to indicate it only does face detection in one shot mode, not AI servo.

It does face detection in AI Servo, as well...during tracking. The manual defines iTR as: "intelligent Tracking and Recognition: The function that the metering sensor identifies the subject to make the AF points tracking it."

The point that Rishi fails to grasp is that based on Canon's description of iTR, when in AI Servo AF while allowing the camera to automatically select the initial AF point(s), data from the metering sensor are not used.

From the 1D X II manual, for the second time:

When iTR is ON in 61pt Auto Selection mode: "The AF point is automatically selected based not only on AF information, but also the human face and the subject's color information."

On the other hand, when iTR is OFF, only then are: "AF points automatically selected based only on AF information (The AF does not use facial information or the subject's color information.)"

Do you see the difference between the descriptions for iTR ON vs OFF? And yet you continue to claim that the behavior when it's ON is actually the behavior when it's OFF.

?

neuro continues to post misinformation that misleads the community, simply because he can't now backtrack and admit he was wrong in his all his numerous posts about how our one motocross piece was supposedly wrong (which it wasn't). Because that would indicate that DPR was right - which it just can't be in order to feed his continued character assassination and claims of bias and incompetence.

Furthermore, he continues his red herring argument, ignoring the fact that even if the AF system were designed to work as he claims (it isn't, according to the manual), then our observation that the camera tends to focus on the nearest subject - while the other one felt a bit more intelligent in what it automatically selected - is still valid and useful information.

Hence, not only is neuro's criticism fundamentally flawed because his own position is wrong according to Canon's own 1D X II manual, it's also flawed because the criticism itself - that 'DPR just described the system does what it's supposed to do!' - isn't criticism at all. Even if we were to describe the system does what it's designed to do - and that that behavior is not ideal - how is that grounds for disaccreditation?

The principle behind 'auto' selection is that the camera should intelligently, automatically find the appropriate subject (it's not called 'nearest subject selection', is it?). One camera did it better than the other, we reported that - just as we pointed out where the Canon beat the Nikon.

And yet it's DPR that is biased, incompetent, arrogant... for those asking why I weighed in to begin with, it was to dismiss factually wrong accusations, like 'Rishi now uses AI Servo because of CR's influence' or 'DPR keeps testing iTR in auto mode against Nikon in 3D tracking, therefore all their results are flawed.' (We don't: we test Nikon's Auto against Canon's 61pt Auto w/ auto initial pt selection, and Nikon 3D vs Canon's 61pt Auto with manual initial pt selection). Certain people here keep coming up with false reasons to discredit us so as to forward the thesis that a bunch of camera reviewers - whose daily job is to understand all camera systems inside out - don't actually know what they're doing. Why do they do this? To not have to accept some criticism we leveled at their camera. Rather than check if the experience of a group of expert reviewers who handle these systems every day might have some perspective a more limited user of one system might not have, the gut reaction is to simply discredit us so as to not have to accept the result. Unknowing readers then read those posts and conclude, well they must be right and DPR must be wrong because the counterargument sounds reasonable and comes from an actual user of the system.

That's when it behooves me to step in and make clear that: (1) no, the counterargument makes an assumption that we didn't consider your point already, which we probably (in most cases) did; and (2) we are users of said system as well. And (3), when we're wrong, and a user of a system does provide us with information we hadn't considered, we're all ears, we update our story, and admit it for full transparency (http://bit.ly/2bWKSje).

 

[3kramd5]

So I still contend that with an advanced body like a 5D, keep the review based on how it performs relative to its own Eco-system.

That would certainly make the review more useful to current canon owners curious about upgrading, but at the same time it makes the piece less useful to generic buyers (not the mass appeal DPreview is after).

the-digital-picture.com is excellent

PS all the above is just be stating my opinion, not trying to be obnoxious or rude.

Me too!

 

[analoggrotto]

In the past I have seen such back and forth antics resulting in the discovery that the participants of an argument are all the same person.

rishi_sanyal and neuroanatomist ... is there something you would like to admit to the rest of this forum? Its ok, you both seem to be having quite a good time there.


Of course, this is my first post so I may be the same person as them too. :-[

cheers fellas,

 

[ritholtz]

I edited after - I rechecked the 7D2 manual and it seems to indicate it only does face detection in one shot mode, not AI servo.

It does face detection in AI Servo, as well...during tracking. The manual defines iTR as: "intelligent Tracking and Recognition: The function that the metering sensor identifies the subject to make the AF points tracking it."

The point that Rishi fails to grasp is that based on Canon's description of iTR, when in AI Servo AF while allowing the camera to automatically select the initial AF point(s), data from the metering sensor are not used.

From the 1D X II manual, for the second time:

When iTR is ON in 61pt Auto Selection mode: "The AF point is automatically selected based not only on AF information, but also the human face and the subject's color information."

On the other hand, when iTR is OFF, only then are: "AF points automatically selected based only on AF information (The AF does not use facial information or the subject's color information.)"

Do you see the difference between the descriptions for iTR ON vs OFF? And yet you continue to claim that the behavior when it's ON is actually the behavior when it's OFF.

?

neuro continues to post misinformation that misleads the community, simply because he can't now backtrack and admit he was wrong in his all his numerous posts about how our one motocross piece was supposedly wrong (which it wasn't). Because that would indicate that DPR was right - which it just can't be in order to feed his continued character assassination and claims of bias and incompetence.

Furthermore, he continues his red herring argument, ignoring the fact that even if the AF system were designed to work as he claims (it isn't, according to the manual), then our observation that the camera tends to focus on the nearest subject - while the other one felt a bit more intelligent in what it automatically selected - is still valid and useful information.

Hence, not only is neuro's criticism fundamentally flawed because his own position is wrong according to Canon's own 1D X II manual, it's also flawed because the criticism itself - that 'DPR just described the system does what it's supposed to do!' - isn't criticism at all. Even if we were to describe the system does what it's designed to do - and that that behavior is not ideal - how is that grounds for disaccreditation?

The principle behind 'auto' selection is that the camera should intelligently, automatically find the appropriate subject (it's not called 'nearest subject selection', is it?). One camera did it better than the other, we reported that - just as we pointed out where the Canon beat the Nikon.

And yet it's DPR that is biased, incompetent, arrogant... for those asking why I weighed in to begin with, it was to dismiss factually wrong accusations, like 'Rishi now uses AI Servo because of CR's influence' or 'DPR keeps testing iTR in auto mode against Nikon in 3D tracking, therefore all their results are flawed.' (We don't: we test Nikon's Auto against Canon's 61pt Auto w/ auto initial pt selection, and Nikon 3D vs Canon's 61pt Auto with manual initial pt selection). Certain people here keep coming up with false reasons to discredit us so as to forward the thesis that a bunch of camera reviewers - whose daily job is to understand all camera systems inside out - don't actually know what they're doing. Why do they do this? To not have to accept some criticism we leveled at their camera. Rather than check if the experience of a group of expert reviewers who handle these systems every day might have some perspective a more limited user of one system might not have, the gut reaction is to simply discredit us so as to not have to accept the result. Unknowing readers then read those posts and conclude, well they must be right and DPR must be wrong because the counterargument sounds reasonable and comes from an actual user of the system.

That's when it behooves me to step in and make clear that: (1) no, the counterargument makes an assumption that we didn't consider your point already, which we probably (in most cases) did; and (2) we are users of said system as well. And (3), when we're wrong, and a user of a system does provide us with information we hadn't considered, we're all ears, we update our story, and admit it for full transparency (http://bit.ly/2bWKSje).

You both are on the same page regarding AF point selection during tracking. Difference is how system is behaving to select initial AF point. Neuro thinks system goes with nearest AF point with subject. You are saying it uses the same logic as used during tracking. Your text from 1DX2 manual is still not clear if it is applicable for initial AF point acquisition. It could be talking about AF point selection during tracking(dpr tests are showing this kind of behavior). I am not sure. May be you can check with Canon.

 

[GaryJ]

Ah! I see this thread has gone well... :

Fasten your seat belts,we're in for a bumpy ride...

 

[Loswr]

I edited after - I rechecked the 7D2 manual and it seems to indicate it only does face detection in one shot mode, not AI servo.

It does face detection in AI Servo, as well...during tracking. The manual defines iTR as: "intelligent Tracking and Recognition: The function that the metering sensor identifies the subject to make the AF points tracking it."

The point that Rishi fails to grasp is that based on Canon's description of iTR, when in AI Servo AF while allowing the camera to automatically select the initial AF point(s), data from the metering sensor are not used.

From the 1D X II manual, for the second time:

When iTR is ON in 61pt Auto Selection mode: "The AF point is automatically selected based not only on AF information, but also the human face and the subject's color information."

On the other hand, when iTR is OFF, only then are: "AF points automatically selected based only on AF information (The AF does not use facial information or the subject's color information.)"

Do you see the difference between the descriptions for iTR ON vs OFF? And yet you continue to claim that the behavior when it's ON is actually the behavior when it's OFF.

For the third (or fourth, or fifth) time, I have stated and agreed that automatic AF point selection during tracking is driven by the metering system. As stated, that's intellegent Tracking and Recognition, which is what the page in the manual to which you refer is describing.

Do you see the difference between the initial automatic selection of an AF point when focusing is initiated in Auto selection mode, vs. selection of an AF point during the tracking of a moving subject?

neuro Rishi continues to post misinformation that misleads the community, simply because he can't now backtrack and admit he was wrong in his all his numerous posts about how our one motocross piece was supposedly wrong right (which it wasn't).

There, now you're making a correct assertion.

 

[unfocused]

I really, really wish someone (Canon preferred, but third party okay) would provide some decent tutorials on autofocus tracking in servo mode. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but I have to say I am not thrilled with any of the Canon autofocus tracking for sports photography.

I'd love to be able to focus on a single player and then have the autofocus continue to track that player as they move through the scene. Maybe there is a way to do that, but I sure can't find it in any of their manuals or online resources.

If you use a single spot, it seems to do a very good job of finding the subject. But it won't track. If you use the expanded modes, it only tracks in the area that you first selected (won't track across the viewfinder) If you use the full autofocus points it focuses on the nearest subject.

Instead of all this arguing and trolling, I wish the people who have had so much success with the autofocus system would take the time to tell us how they get such supposedly perfect results. Honestly, of late I've pretty much reverted to single point autofocus and from what I've read even a lot of professional sports photographers do the same.

How about it guys. Let's stop the arguing and start the teaching.

 

[Loswr]

You both are on the same page regarding AF point selection during tracking. Difference is how system is behaving to select initial AF point. Neuro thinks system goes with nearest AF point with subject. You are saying it uses the same logic as used during tracking. Your text from 1DX2 manual is still not clear if it is applicable for initial AF point acquisition. It could be talking about AF point selection during tracking(dpr tests are showing this kind of behavior). I am not sure. May be you can check with Canon.

^^This^^

As stated above, the text that Rishi is quoting from the manual applies to AF point selection during iTR tracking, not to the initial automatic AF point selection. No need to check with Canon, since Canon has already explained the way initial auto AF point selection for the iTR system works. I've posted these statements from Canon earlier in the thread, but Rishi either doesn't understand them, or more likely is ignoring them becuase they contradict the misinformation which he continues to spread.

[quote author=Rudy Winston, Canon Technical Representative]
One of the key new innovations is using color information to assist the AF system when it’s in Automatic AF point selection mode. Focus upon a subject with all the AF points active and the AF system initially focuses upon it. But behind the scenes, the RGB metering system registers the color, size and shape of the subject being initially focused upon. Armed with this info, the metering system knows not only where the subject is, but its color characteristics — in essence, what it looks like. The Intelligent Subject Analysis system has taken the first step for the photographer.

And as a subject moves around the viewfinder, the metering system continues to update its position, using color and shape to follow the subject. As it moves, the metering system “tells” the AF system where the subject is. Now, the Automatic AF point selection system can continuously change active AF points to keep the initial subject in focus as it moves around the finder. This is the genesis of Canon’s Intelligent Tracking and Recognition (iTR) feature.[/quote]

[quote author=Rudy Winston, Canon Technical Representative]
As with all previous EOS models, the basic concept of Evaluative metering is to read exposure over the entire picture area, knowing what and where the primary subject likely is in the scene – the EOS-1D X's color metering and scene detection technologies obviously are a huge help here. The AF system provides information to the metering system, identifying the active AF point(s), and thus pointing the Evaluative metering system to the probable location of the primary subject.
[/quote]

Clearly, Canon is stating that for initial automatic AF point selection in AI Servo, it's the AF system that selects the AF point, then transfers that information to the metering system, which then performs face/color/shape detection.

Rishi, still waiting for you to:

1) acknowledge that you've read and understood the way in which Canon describes the initial automatic AF point selection in AI Servo, and

2) provide actual evidence that Canon is wrong in the way they describe the function of iTR

Note that the following – all of which you've already tried, in some cases more than once – do not constitute actual evidence:

• restating your opinion
• shouting
• sarcasm
• name-calling
• side-stepping the issue by again talking about how iTR behaves during tracking
• ignoring the information provided by Canon
• use excuses to justify not responding

As I previously stated, I'd welcome additional/new factual information that contradicts Canon's own statements...explicit statements which you ignored the first time, and which I re-posted above. But you seem unable to provide any such factual information. As the saying goes...put up or shut up.

 

[Don Haines]

In the past I have seen such back and forth antics resulting in the discovery that the participants of an argument are all the same person.

rishi_sanyal and neuroanatomist ... is there something you would like to admit to the rest of this forum? Its ok, you both seem to be having quite a good time there.


Of course, this is my first post so I may be the same person as them too. :-[

cheers fellas,

Welcome to the zoo.... hope you brought some popcorn

 

[unfocused]

No need to check with Canon, since Canon has already explained the way initial auto AF point selection for the iTR system works...

[quote author=Rudy Winston, Canon Technical Representative]
One of the key new innovations is using color information to assist the AF system when it’s in Automatic AF point selection mode. Focus upon a subject with all the AF points active and the AF system initially focuses upon it. But behind the scenes, the RGB metering system registers the color, size and shape of the subject being initially focused upon. Armed with this info, the metering system knows not only where the subject is, but its color characteristics — in essence, what it looks like. The Intelligent Subject Analysis system has taken the first step for the photographer.

And as a subject moves around the viewfinder, the metering system continues to update its position, using color and shape to follow the subject. As it moves, the metering system “tells” the AF system where the subject is. Now, the Automatic AF point selection system can continuously change active AF points to keep the initial subject in focus as it moves around the finder. This is the genesis of Canon’s Intelligent Tracking and Recognition (iTR) feature.

[/quote]

And, how in the hell are you supposed to "focus upon a subject with all the AF points active" if that subject isn't the nearest object to the camera? I want to focus on the Volleyball, Soccer, Basketball, etc., player who has the ball and then follow that person, not the player closest to the camera. What am I missing.

 

[Loswr]

And, how in the hell are you supposed to "focus upon a subject with all the AF points active" if that subject isn't the nearest object to the camera? I want to focus on the Volleyball, Soccer, Basketball, etc., player who has the ball and then follow that person, not the player closest to the camera. What am I missing.

You select the initial AF point manually, of course.

[quote author=Canon DLC]
Using it is simple:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Set the EOS-1D X to the AI Servo AF mode.
[*]Be sure the camera is set to Automatic AF point selection mode (in the viewfinder, you’ll see a thin border surrounding the AF point array).
[*]Manually select any single point as the starting point for focus tracking, whether centered or off-center.
[*]Activate AF using color information in the Menu: 4th AF menu > Auto AF pt. select criteria > EOS iTR AF
[/list]
That’s it! Now, you begin to initially track a subject at the AF point you dialed in as the starting point. Press whatever button you’re using to activate AF and the camera starts to focus-track your subject. If the subject moves away from that AF point, its shape, size and color are monitored by the RGB metering system and tells the AF system which points to continuously update to keep it in sharp focus.
[/quote]

Why would you want the camera to select your subject for you? It can't read your mind... (But Rishi may tell you that it could...if it was a Nikon, with all that uncanny, spooky, awesomerifically superlative 3D magic sauce AF mojo. )

In your example where you want to follow the player with the ball and not the other players on the field, would you expect the camera to determine which player had the ball? No, you select an AF point and put it over the subject you want to track, then the camera uses the metering data to assist in tracking that subject. The reason you want all the AF points active (or a large subset like a zone) is so the camera can use those AF points to track the subject through the frame.

 

[unfocused]

And, how in the hell are you supposed to "focus upon a subject with all the AF points active" if that subject isn't the nearest object to the camera? I want to focus on the Volleyball, Soccer, Basketball, etc., player who has the ball and then follow that person, not the player closest to the camera. What am I missing.

You select the initial AF point manually, of course.

[quote author=Canon DLC]
Using it is simple:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Set the EOS-1D X to the AI Servo AF mode.
[*]Be sure the camera is set to Automatic AF point selection mode (in the viewfinder, you’ll see a thin border surrounding the AF point array).
[*]Manually select any single point as the starting point for focus tracking, whether centered or off-center.
[*]Activate AF using color information in the Menu: 4th AF menu > Auto AF pt. select criteria > EOS iTR AF
[/list]
That’s it! Now, you begin to initially track a subject at the AF point you dialed in as the starting point. Press whatever button you’re using to activate AF and the camera starts to focus-track your subject. If the subject moves away from that AF point, its shape, size and color are monitored by the RGB metering system and tells the AF system which points to continuously update to keep it in sharp focus.

Why would you want the camera to select your subject for you? It can't read your mind... (But Rishi may tell you that it could...if it was a Nikon, with all that uncanny, spooky, awesomerifically superlative 3D magic sauce AF mojo. )

In your example where you want to follow the player with the ball and not the other players on the field, would you expect the camera to determine which player had the ball? No, you select an AF point and put it over the subject you want to track, then the camera uses the metering data to assist in tracking that subject. The reason you want all the AF points active (or a large subset like a zone) is so the camera can use those AF points to track the subject through the frame.
[/quote]

Sorry if you think I'm stupid, but how are you supposed to "manually" select an autofocus point in AF Servo. I press the AF On button and it picks the closest object to focus on. How do I move that point?

 

[Loswr]

Sorry if you think I'm stupid, but how are you supposed to "manually" select an autofocus point in AF Servo. I press the AF On button and it picks the closest object to focus on. How do I move that point?

Oh, please...it's a good question and honestly, manually selecting a starting AF point for AI Servo should have been the default. I suspect it's just Canon's internal evolution of the feature - until recently (the 7D, IIRC), AI Servo tracking started from the center point, always. When Canon eliminated that restriction and allowed any AF initial AF point to be selected, they jumped straight to Auto selection (where it picks the closest subject).

Sorry, too much information. Check out p.134 in the 1D X II manual. Or just go to AF menu 4 > Initial AF Point, AI Servo AF menu and change it from Auto to one of the other two options. The first one starts with the point that was last used in AI Servo (which you can then move around with the joystick), the second starts at the point you were using before you switched to Full 61-pt auto selection mode (but again, you can move it where you want).

 

[unfocused]

Sorry if you think I'm stupid, but how are you supposed to "manually" select an autofocus point in AF Servo. I press the AF On button and it picks the closest object to focus on. How do I move that point?

Oh, please...it's a good question and honestly, manually selecting a starting AF point for AI Servo should have been the default. I suspect it's just Canon's internal evolution of the feature - until recently (the 7D, IIRC), AI Servo tracking started from the center point, always. When Canon eliminated that restriction and allowed any AF initial AF point to be selected, they jumped straight to Auto selection (where it picks the closest subject).

Sorry, too much information. Check out p.134 in the 1D X II manual. Or just go to AF menu 4 > Initial AF Point, AI Servo AF menu and change it from Auto to one of the other two options. The first one starts with the point that was last used in AI Servo (which you can then move around with the joystick), the second starts at the point you were using before you switched to Full 61-pt auto selection mode (but again, you can move it where you want).

Thank you. I knew there was something I wasn't doing correctly.

 

[Loswr]

Sorry if you think I'm stupid, but how are you supposed to "manually" select an autofocus point in AF Servo. I press the AF On button and it picks the closest object to focus on. How do I move that point?

Oh, please...it's a good question and honestly, manually selecting a starting AF point for AI Servo should have been the default. I suspect it's just Canon's internal evolution of the feature - until recently (the 7D, IIRC), AI Servo tracking started from the center point, always. When Canon eliminated that restriction and allowed any AF initial AF point to be selected, they jumped straight to Auto selection (where it picks the closest subject).

Sorry, too much information. Check out p.134 in the 1D X II manual. Or just go to AF menu 4 > Initial AF Point, AI Servo AF menu and change it from Auto to one of the other two options. The first one starts with the point that was last used in AI Servo (which you can then move around with the joystick), the second starts at the point you were using before you switched to Full 61-pt auto selection mode (but again, you can move it where you want).

Thank you. I knew there was something I wasn't doing correctly.

Glad to help. It's one of those settings you'll likely never visit again...at least, I haven't since I first got my 1D X, since I'm generally not a fan of letting my camera choose my subject for me.

 

[unfocused]

Sorry if you think I'm stupid, but how are you supposed to "manually" select an autofocus point in AF Servo. I press the AF On button and it picks the closest object to focus on. How do I move that point?

Oh, please...it's a good question and honestly, manually selecting a starting AF point for AI Servo should have been the default. ..Check out p.134 in the 1D X II manual. Or just go to AF menu 4 > Initial AF Point, AI Servo AF menu and change it from Auto to one of the other two options. The first one starts with the point that was last used in AI Servo (which you can then move around with the joystick), the second starts at the point you were using before you switched to Full 61-pt auto selection mode (but again, you can move it where you want).

Thank you. I knew there was something I wasn't doing correctly.

Thanks again. I found I also had to enable Direct AF Point selection in custom controls.

I know sometimes we disagree and I can be a bit thorny at times, but honestly, I really do appreciate your helpfulness. This forum would be a lot more ignorant without you. My criticisms are usually aimed at cases where I think comments are beneath you. However, I also understand the frustration because I don't suffer fools gladly either.

 

[Loswr]

Thanks again. I found I also had to enable Direct AF Point selection in custom controls.

Yes, that's another set-and-forget. You can press the AF point selection button each time, but why? Another fav of mine is assigning 100% magnified view to the Set button to check critical focus after a shot.

I know sometimes we disagree and I can be a bit thorny at times, but honestly, I really do appreciate your helpfulness. This forum would be a lot more ignorant without you. My criticisms are usually aimed at cases where I think comments are beneath you. However, I also understand the frustration because I don't suffer fools gladly either.

I think I can be thornier, by volume if not sharpness...