DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II

[jrista]

This is making me think of Horsepower and Torque measurements on cars. In advertising we are quoted the power to the wheels but behind that is a pure power reading straight from the engine before it hits the transmission and drive shafts where some degree of HP is lost. Same true here. Sensor (engine) delivers A given HP before some of it is lost through the signal path and ADC (transmission and drive shaft). If i want to boost my output to the wheels I can either get more out of the engine or make my drive train a more efficient machine.... Or both. canon perhaps did one or the other somewhere in the mix to boost the final horsepower to the wheels.

If they did indeed do that, then it would be entirely illogical to state the camera has the same DR as the 5D III. If they reduced noise and maintained FWC, that would increase DR, and thus, the 5Ds would have more than the 5D III. Why is no one saying that?


It's all very fishy. Word mincing in the extreme. We have a freakin smorgasbord of words right now. :


The only thing that is going to matter in the end is actual FWC and RN measurements. I could care less what DXO says about DR when they downsample the monster file to 8mp. I care about the per-pixel DR...and I really don't think it's going to top 12 stops, let alone hit 13.8.

 

[privatebydesign]

The only thing that is going to matter in the end is actual FWC and RN measurements.

No, it is a camera, the only thing that matters in the end is the images it can make and the editing latitude it gives us.

You are just doing a DxO yourself, you are trying to reduce an incredibly complex set of electronics, firmware, hardware, and software to two numbers.

The one thing I truthfully hope all this DR bullsh!t doesn't do is force Canon to cook their RAW files just like Sony and Nikon do. However they get so much bad press and forum crap about it that I fear they will start cooking them soon, and as a RAW only shooter I feel that would be a shame.

 

[3kramd5]

I still think people are mincing words here. The 5D III does not have 14 stops of DR. The 5D III has 11 stops of DR. You cannot ignore the read noise, and people seem to be trying to do that with these funky explanations of why the 5Ds "has the same DR as the 5D III, but also has more DR than the 5D III". None of it makes sense.

It's possible (although not likely) they're discussing about two different things. The dynamic range of each pixel is related to its capacity versus noise, and the dynamic range of the output is limited by the bit-depth of the ADC and file structure.

Aye, I think that's mincing.

Perhaps. Or it's wishful thinking

If Chuck was talking about overall digital architecture in stating that the S is equivalent to the 3 since they're both 14 bit platforms, but that the the other spokesman was talking about sensor level noise, perhaps the raw files will have better flexibility in the shadows while still being equivalent from an overarching perspective.

I doubt it, but might as well wish for the best.

Personally, I think whether 12-ish stops is "plenty" is entirely subjective and contextual. There are those of us who could use 16 stops, 20 stops, if we had it. In some contexts, 12 stops is woefully inadequate.


Subjectivity and feelings vs. objectivity and facts. I'm trying to stick to the latter.

Sure. I left off the implied "for me". Most of my profitable shots have been well within 12-stops, and others I have been able to mitigate by traditional methods of balancing the scene. Within the confines of 14-bit RAW, 12 is generally speaking good enough for me. The situations where the additional range my A7R provides make a significant difference are few and far between. I agree that 16 or 20 would be wonderful, but that's a pipe dream in any near term still cam I'm afraid.

 

[mark99]

The people that need light sensitivity are photo journalists, concert shooters and wedding togs.
However we see these announcements from the development room where the best cameras in the world leave development.
Then they go to the handicap room.
No camera leaves without having an arm off or a leg or at very least a hand.
Its Canons way, develop the best then disable it.
With Sony now encroaching in the race, they are going to end up third place in the market unless they stop chopping technology off the cameras when they leave development.
Any guesses what they will handicap from it ?
FPS ? Buffer ? Autofocus ?
Something will get cut off before it gets to market.

 

[Marsu42]

The people that need light sensitivity are photo journalists, concert shooters and wedding togs.

Don't forget wildlife shooters: long focal length + movement = faster shutter speed = high iso requirement

Its Canons way, develop the best then disable it.

Well said ... but I don't know the details of Sonikon cameras, probably the grass is always greener on the other side.

FPS ? Buffer ? Autofocus ? Something will get cut off before it gets to market.

Being in Canon marketing must be a lot of fun, so many options to chose from what to cripple ... but imho their crowing achievement is the impossible position of the dof preview button on the 6d, I guess they're still rofl'ing about people trying to reach it :-\

 

[jeanluc]

I hope the Northlight "testers" are correct like pretty much everyone else here. If there is even an extra 1-2 stops of DR in the 5DS I think a lot of people will buy it.

Maybe this has been covered here or somewhere, but in looking at what Magic Latern appears to be able to do with shadow noise with the 5D3, I'm surprised Canon (which has a very large and capable software team) hasn't offered something along those lines to get as much as it can out of the current sensor.

I'm sure there are likely negatives to a software "solution" and it obviously is not a definitive fix, but I wonder what the actual manufacturer could do along those lines if it tried. It couldn't hurt.

I will hold onto my 5d3 until the 5DS is real world tested and until we see what the 5D4 offers. Maybe the 5DS will buy them some time to develop a newer sensor. That would be fine with me, since if I had to choose I think somewhere around 35 MP is plenty of resolution even for landscapes.

 

[K]

Well said ... but I don't know the details of Sonikon cameras, probably the grass is always greener on the other side.

This is true. People get hung up on one aspect too much. Cameras are a system. Canon has the superior lenses, better handling, faster menus, etcetera. Better speedlites. Also, far better quality control. D750 recall? D600 oil spots? Canon is slower to the market. But we know that Canon tests their DSLR's by putting them out into the field first.

More of Canon's stuff is made in Japan.

I'd rather Canon do their own beta testing. Rather than rush products out and let their consumers do it for them. This isn't to say Canon doesn't have bugs, but the issues with recent Nikon cameras has been unacceptable.

But I'm also not some impatient tech-junkie who has to have the latest and greatest all the time. Some folks just want this stuff just for the sake of saying they have it. Only a handful of true professionals who are pushing the limits of their cameras can justify an immediate upgrade based on NEEDS rather than WANTS or NICE TO HAVE.

 

[K]

On the topic of Dynamic Range --

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

On the other hand,

If the 5DS does not, and those techies are correct - then that should discredit the sources claiming they have "testers" getting real results from the actual camera. It would just be marketing propaganda.

The only difference is, those claiming the higher DR have the excuse of being a rumor type site. Those claiming the same DR, are using their own knowledge and their understanding of the science. The former can say it was just a rumor. The latter has to admit they don't know what they're talking about.

Should be interesting to find out in the coming months...

;D

 

[Marsu42]

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

Nobody here has a magic crystal sphere - the point of debate is if the 5ds can achieve significantly higher dynamic range without a major tech overhaul in sensor/readout design, or if there are some optimization approaches left that Canon didn't use yet. And we're talking about *usable* dr in the raw image file, not theoretical numbers somewhere up the pipeline.

 

[bmwzimmer]

Latest update (Feb 10th) from NL is stating Other testers as well are also claiming the 5DS/R has the best Dynamic range of any pro current canon camera.

Ok i think this deserves a CR2 by now.

 

[privatebydesign]

On the topic of Dynamic Range --

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR......................

Should be interesting to find out in the coming months...

;D

I agree with the first paragraph wholeheartedly. I am very much looking forwards to the actual testing.

 

[K]

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

Nobody here has a magic crystal sphere - the point of debate is if the 5ds can achieve significantly higher dynamic range without a major tech overhaul in sensor/readout design, or if there are some optimization approaches left that Canon didn't use yet. And we're talking about *usable* dr in the raw image file, not theoretical numbers somewhere up the pipeline.

Some folks here are so staunchly committed to claiming that the 5DS will not have more DR they have stated it as a scientific fact and spent a lot of time writing it out in great technical detail. Creating a case against more DR point by point.


That's perfectly ok. If they turn out to be right. What they say sounds very logical, and accurate. Time will tell, but this and other threads are the record.


8)

 

[PureClassA]

I hope the Northlight "testers" are correct like pretty much everyone else here. If there is even an extra 1-2 stops of DR in the 5DS I think a lot of people will buy it.

Maybe this has been covered here or somewhere, but in looking at what Magic Latern appears to be able to do with shadow noise with the 5D3, I'm surprised Canon (which has a very large and capable software team) hasn't offered something along those lines to get as much as it can out of the current sensor.

I'm sure there are likely negatives to a software "solution" and it obviously is not a definitive fix, but I wonder what the actual manufacturer could do along those lines if it tried. It couldn't hurt.

I will hold onto my 5d3 until the 5DS is real world tested and until we see what the 5D4 offers. Maybe the 5DS will buy them some time to develop a newer sensor. That would be fine with me, since if I had to choose I think somewhere around 35 MP is plenty of resolution even for landscapes.

Well they aren't "Northlight testers". They are other professionals that have obviously been handed pre-production models of the 5DS for testing who Keith knows personally and has a good relationship with and provide him some inside info on an anonymous basis to protect their reputations with Canon corporate.

Some flak has been given to the fact that their testing has been limited to processing in DPP (thinking DPP is doing some magic NR in software, and it could be) but no other 3rd party software (Lightroom, DxO, etc...) could possibly have the 5DS camera profile yet to do it anyway.

Jon was kind enough to spend a great deal of his time explaining exactly how DR measured so now we should all understand what the variables are. I agree there is no magic bullet but SOMETHING is making these testers say the following in emails to Keith, "The new sensor will capture 14 stops of DR (just like the 5D III) ... However it will produce remarkably cleaner results when lifting deep shadows" (source, Feb 10th posting at Northlight)

So Jon is correct that new DR can't magically appear with the same sensor, but we know that they are not really the exactly same sensor per se, given they have been tuned for low ISO. Now Jon also mentioned the 500nm process, but did Canon not also have a 180nm process? Maybe I'm confusing something. Not certain. Either way, if Canon has found a way to eliminate the NOISE induced into the signal path then the ADCs are realizing more of the usable native DR the sensor can deliver, 1.5 to 2 stops in this case is being claimed.

What caught my attention most in this regard is the following quote from the same sources "The colour filters on the sensor are designed to produce a higher level of colour accuracy and separation, the sensor itself runs at a significantly lower temperature."

Well, heat itself will generate noise or distortion in most any electrical or mechanical component and lot of heat can generate lots of noise. If by foregoing high ISO sensitivity allows Canon to operate their sensors at lower temperatures then theoretically that should reduce the noise produced in the sensor and en route to the ADC. It is perhaps here where Canon is lowering their read noise and getting more of the sensor's actual DR to the ADCs in tact, making it usable. Same engine in the car, but now more horsepower is being preserved and getting to the wheels.

Westfall isn't the end-all be-all last word. He's more a sales and corporate face than a tech guy. And let's just assume for the moment he didn't understand this OR maybe Canon wants to really hold off as they are still obviously testing things. WHO KNOWS. What we do know now, is that things aren't what they seem, we just don't know exactly what or how yet, but we're starting to get some sort of picture.

As for your ML remarks. AMEN! I even emailed CPS about "Please put in DUAL ISO before the release." It's so simple a firmware tweak and doesn't seem to me like a feature they would cripple out on a camera designed to deliver exactly what Dual ISO can offer. I suggest others here do the same instead of just talking about it on here.

 

[PureClassA]

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

Nobody here has a magic crystal sphere - the point of debate is if the 5ds can achieve significantly higher dynamic range without a major tech overhaul in sensor/readout design, or if there are some optimization approaches left that Canon didn't use yet. And we're talking about *usable* dr in the raw image file, not theoretical numbers somewhere up the pipeline.

Some folks here are so staunchly committed to claiming that the 5DS will not have more DR they have stated it as a scientific fact and spent a lot of time writing it out in great technical detail. Creating a case against more DR point by point.


That's perfectly ok. If they turn out to be right. What they say sounds very logical, and accurate. Time will tell, but this and other threads are the record.


8)

JRista gave us a nice long detailed explanation how DR works, said given what we know now, he doesn't see how it could be improved that much. Then he said "I hope I'm wrong" Not sure how you could be more scientific and fair minded than that.

 

[Stu_bert]

...
However, I don't use Canon for landscapes. I gave up on shooting landscapes, at least the kinds of landscapes I really like, once I realized how bad Canon's read noise is in my 5D III, and having seen little improvement in the 6D, 70D, 7D II. I don't have much time for landscapes...I certainly can't go driving all about the Colorado Rockies all the time to find amazing vistas, and it's even more difficult to find them with good light. On top of that, I'm putting all my resources into astrophotography these days. With astro, you have no option but to dig way deep into your signal data...and once you do, there is simply no denying the fundamental and radical differences in data quality between Canon...and the rest.
...

Pity that Sony do lossy compression with their raw files (which I hear impacts star trails) or else it might be worth trying an A7-something plus adapter.

+1

Talk about crazy lack of understanding of their target market. Bizarre decision.

 

[Stu_bert]

...
Maybe the 5DS will buy them some time to develop a newer sensor. That would be fine with me, since if I had to choose I think somewhere around 35 MP is plenty of resolution even for landscapes.

Buy them some time how? And how much time?

Lead time for a DSLR like the 5Ds is probably 3 to 4 years - maybe 5.

Does Canon have that long to keep Sony and Nikon at bay?

Hard to tell.

But if the 5Ds doesn't deliver (and neither does the 5D4) in terms of DR and low noise then you'll see more and more people leaving Canon for Nikon/Sony.

Canon is running out of time.

Really? Have you looked at the financial results of Nikon?

What they are looking to do is run a Business. Does it frustrate me in terms of some of their feature decisions? It sure does. But the whole camera market is suffering from skrinkage due to smartphone sales and reducing P&S revenue.

If the 5Ds is based on the 7D II sensor, Canon have likely spent their time maximising yeild at FF size which in turn would no doubt improve yeild on their APS-C. But I dont think they've been doing huge amounts on developing this sensor. And the more I see what they're doing, the more they appear motivated by doing just enough to keep market share - in broad terms. I'm not saying this is the best idea, but it does appear what they are doing. Dual Pixel tech took longer to perfect certainly.

I dont dispute that people will move from Canon to Nikon, Sony, Samsung or whoever. It depends on whether more than "normal" move - if the churn rate goes up, then they might notice and react. For me, it is all about the economics for Canon right now. Whether they have a comparable sensor tech waiting, or whether they are looking at different sensor tech, clearly I don't know. I think they are waiting.

Sounding the death knell for Canon is somewhat premature and based on what you think they need to be successful. The smartphone market is hurting the camera makers more, not 2 stops of DR, and some people moving to other brands because 2 stops is sufficient a reason. For many others, it's not.

 

[Stu_bert]

Latest update (Feb 10th) from NL is stating Other testers as well are also claiming the 5DS/R has the best Dynamic range of any pro current canon camera.

Ok i think this deserves a CR2 by now.

My grandmother has more DR than any current pro canon camera.

-1

And the benefit of such a comment?

 

[Stu_bert]

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

Nobody here has a magic crystal sphere - the point of debate is if the 5ds can achieve significantly higher dynamic range without a major tech overhaul in sensor/readout design, or if there are some optimization approaches left that Canon didn't use yet. And we're talking about *usable* dr in the raw image file, not theoretical numbers somewhere up the pipeline.

Some folks here are so staunchly committed to claiming that the 5DS will not have more DR they have stated it as a scientific fact and spent a lot of time writing it out in great technical detail. Creating a case against more DR point by point.


That's perfectly ok. If they turn out to be right. What they say sounds very logical, and accurate. Time will tell, but this and other threads are the record.


8)

JRista gave us a nice long detailed explanation how DR works, said given what we know now, he doesn't see how it could be improved that much. Then he said "I hope I'm wrong" Not sure how you could be more scientific and fair minded than that.

+1

Some people are looking for something more in the words, hoping to find a snippet which indicates something better. Jon is basing his reasoning on what he knows of current sensors and forming a conclusion. He does not profess to know, he's just interpreting information based on facts and science. I also personally find it useful and helpful, so thank you Jon.

Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the 5Ds, doesn't mean I wont consider another body from another manufacturer. I'm intrigued by 4K video on the NX500. I'd look at a A7R II if they fix the compression. Nikon is unlikely to appeal, as I'm not after a 2nd set of glass, nor trading my big whites. As to which I will buy (if any)? Well that depends on what the real-world reviews are. I'm not ditching my Canon gear, but like a few I may supplement it, or I may decide the 5Ds offers enough that the additional DR is not sufficient for me to have 2 vendors in my bag. It's about photography - the gear is more the economics.

I just dont see the point of continual venting on these forums. Vent to Canon as suggested. But make it constructive (comments about your Grandma may not get you noticed)...

 

[privatebydesign]

JRista gave us a nice long detailed explanation how DR works, said given what we know now, he doesn't see how it could be improved that much. Then he said "I hope I'm wrong" Not sure how you could be more scientific and fair minded than that.

Jon is basing his reasoning on what he knows of current sensors and forming a conclusion. He does not profess to know, he's just interpreting information based on facts and science. I also personally find it useful and helpful, so thank you Jon.

No, he gave us his uninformed opinion of sensor tech coming from an informal 'education' about such technical matters garnered from the internet, forums, patents and other such self taught sources.

He has made several mistakes in his theories before and has often faltered in his knowledge when confronted by somebody with more experience in one particular area, he has no formal education on cameras or their tech.

His opinion is not fact, it is opinion, he usually muddies the two and too many here seem to take his word as gospel, it isn't.

 

[Deleted member 7828]

I'll wait for the tests (and until I can try one out myself) before judging anything about this camera's IQ.