DXO calls the D7200 "Super awesome greatness with frosting on top"

[Marsu42]

Here's what Canon has to say about AFMA:

So...it's your contention that Canon was using a 'feature' they say should not be needed and may screw up your focus as a way to upsell people from the 60D to the 7D, and they needed to do so because the 18 MP APS-C sensor in the 60D is better than the identically-spec'd 18 MP APS-C sensor in the 7D?? I guess frame rate, AF performance, build quality, etc., just weren't enough, 'eh?

You've got it in one, and that's what makes it so annoying: Crippling the 60d by cutting afma wasn't necessary at all as there was enough distance to the 7d. But obviously they wanted to make really, really sure.

An equal example is crippling the 70d by cutting the spot af ... probably a simple software "#define CUT_FEATURE_TO_UPSELL_POOR_SUCKERS" in the fw, too, as - my guess - they're re-using the same hardware af system of the 7d1.

 

[Loswr]

n equal example is crippling the 70d by cutting the spot af ... probably a simple software "#define CUT_FEATURE_TO_UPSELL_POOR_SUCKERS" in the fw, too, as - my guess - they're re-using the same hardware af system of the 7d1.

In the one and only Tony Northrup infomercial I watched, he bashed the 5DIII's hit rate in AI Servo (which was in the 60% range and way lower than one would expect). Turns out that 'expert' was using Spot AF in Servo mode, another thing the manual recommends against.

But you're right, there can't possibly be any rational justification for these decisions other than Canon stickin' it to us hapless consumers to force us all to buy more expensive cameras. :

I guess I'm just a sucker because I went and bought a 1D X. stamping my feet Damn Canon for trying to downsell me to the 6D to get in-camera HDR and AI Focus mode. Clearly they're eliminating key features from their flagship camera with simple software that would cost nothing to implement. Those greedy bastards... : : :

 

[mackguyver]

Tony Northrup .... 'expert' was using Spot AF in Servo mode ...

LOL!!! I don't know about you, but I keep wondering if Tony is just the YouTube / paperback persona of Ken Rockwell. If they really are two people, then I'm frightened for all of us!

 

[Marsu42]

But you're right, there can't possibly be any rational justification for these decisions other than Canon stickin' it to us hapless consumers to force us all to buy more expensive cameras. :

If you have a look down to earth from premium product heaven, you'll recognize I do differentiate a lot between last minute (mostly software) crippling and legit product policy or commercial interest - see my post above in this very same thread.

Alas, vice versa it seems some very enthusiastic enthusiasts simply refuse to accept critic notions towards our favorite brand could be valid - Canon being the market leader and all. If Canon would cut the shutter button from the next model, I'm positive explanations would be found why this is just fine the way it is, as people could be confused by taking pictures ;-p

 

[Loswr]

But you're right, there can't possibly be any rational justification for these decisions other than Canon stickin' it to us hapless consumers to force us all to buy more expensive cameras. :

If you have a look down to earth from premium product heaven, you'll recognize I do differentiate a lot between last minute (mostly software) crippling and legit product policy or commercial interest - see my post above in this very same thread.

Alas, vice versa it seems some very enthusiastic enthusiasts simply refuse to accept critic notions towards our favorite brand could be valid - Canon being the market leader and all. If Canon would cut the shutter button from the next model, I'm positive explanations would be found why this is just fine the way it is, as people could be confused by taking pictures ;-p

Oh, I see. Because it's software and last minute, the only reason is 'crippling' and upselling. Couldn't be feedback from early field testers or anything else.

If you have a look up, you'll see that I do criticize Canon where warranted. I'm just doing so from a balanced viewpoint, considering both my needs/wants and relevant business and use case drivers. Alas, vice versa it seems there is a disenfranchised demographic who would prefer to complain that Canon is not giving them what they personally want, and their dissatisfaction leads them to ignore legitimate reasons for it.

Regardless, it's patently pointless to prolong this prosaic prattle. I'm out.

 

[ahsanford]

Regardless, it's patently pointless to prolong this prosaic prattle. I'm out.

#alliterationsnap

 

[Sporgon]

The 60D is a bit of a red herring isn't it ? I though the camera was purposely taken a little down market by Canon to get a lower price tag. Wasn't the 60D about $300 cheaper than the 50D was at introduction ? A lower price at the expense of losing features isn't that devious. However it would seem that it didn't go according to plan one way or another because the 70D went back up again, both in features and price. Perhaps because of what was to be the forthcoming 7DII.

The down-grading of the 60D's rear wheel when fitted to the (much) more expensive 6D: now that's another thing altogether !

 

[Marsu42]

Regardless, it's patently pointless to prolong this prosaic prattle. I'm out.

My thought exactly, let's keep agreeing we disagree.

The 60D is a bit of a red herring isn't it ? I though the camera was purposely taken a little down market by Canon to get a lower price tag. Wasn't the 60D about $300 cheaper than the 50D was at introduction ?

Might be, but you have to compare that to the whole dslr range becoming cheaper in these days across the board. Probably the cheaper build quality accounts for a lot of the 50d/60d difference.

The down-grading of the 60D's rear wheel when fitted to the (much) more expensive 6D: now that's another thing altogether !

Indeed, but other than you think: This is a hardware feature, so Canon is probably saving money to make a more affordable product to benefit of all us Canon fans.

In contrast, software crippling (6d no save hdr sources, 60d afma, 70d spot af) could just be lifted with a fw update. There's no further cost involved for Canon, other than fear of support costs ("My 6d can save hdr souce files, please help me!") and less upselling to the nextest and bestest model.

 

[9VIII]

But you're right, there can't possibly be any rational justification for these decisions other than Canon stickin' it to us hapless consumers to force us all to buy more expensive cameras. :

If you have a look down to earth from premium product heaven, you'll recognize I do differentiate a lot between last minute (mostly software) crippling and legit product policy or commercial interest - see my post above in this very same thread.

Alas, vice versa it seems some very enthusiastic enthusiasts simply refuse to accept critic notions towards our favorite brand could be valid - Canon being the market leader and all. If Canon would cut the shutter button from the next model, I'm positive explanations would be found why this is just fine the way it is, as people could be confused by taking pictures ;-p

I get that we all see cool stuff happening on other systems and want to see the best system in the world be the best in every way, but acting like the few advantages of the competition are equal to the advantages Canon has over the competition is really nothing more than posturing. A futile exercise considering the situation.
I've told more than a few people now that if they're not happy with Canon the only reasonable thing to do is go get the stuff from the competition.
It's really just foolish sitting here complaining about what isn't, daydreaming about what may never be.

 

[joejohnbear]

Regardless, it's patently pointless to prolong this prosaic prattle. I'm out.

Not sure if anyone ever acknowledges this stuff out in camera forums, but that was some beautiful alliteration there.

 

[joejohnbear]

Not everyone shoots with ambient only. -3Ev can be useful for flash photography in a dark environment. Subject can be completely flash-lit but ambient light is very low. (e.g. you shoot with ST-E3 on camera triggering off camera flashes.)

That's a reasonable use case, but again... -3 EV is really dark. A fireplace at the end of the room as the sole illumination, for example. How common are situations like that? More importantly, how common are situations like that where a strobe (or a group of them) going off won't kill the mood or be outright forbidden?

I think the main use scenario would be using off-camera flashes in a dark or low-contrast (contrejour/backlit) scene without having to use a 600EXRT to paint contrast lines and to use servo for moving subjects in those lighting conditions. Rare, I know, but better focusing would be nice in those situations. For now, though, I know the solution is the 600EXRT in one-shot focus mode, but it is additional weight and I do wish that there was something lighter weight to get the same shot. I'm sure they'll add it when the 5DIV comes out.

 

[Aglet]

In contrast, software crippling (6d no save hdr sources, 60d afma, 70d spot af) could just be lifted with a fw update. There's no further cost involved for Canon, other than fear of support costs ("My 6d can save hdr souce files, please help me!") and less upselling to the nextest and bestest model.

+1. The very definition of crippled product is when the hardware's there but they've decided to rem-out the software that allows it to be used to its potential.
Kinda like the original 7D and its end of life firmware upgrade that finally un-crippled its buffer abilities.

But back to the main topic... Nikon sure doesn't seem like they've crippled the d7200's image quality vs, well, the chronically crippled images from Canon that firmware aint ever gonna fix.

D7200 achievements need repeating:

• 13.8 stops of DR at base,
• superior color discrimination,
• better hi ISO performance.
  

That's the imaging trifecta!

 

[joejohnbear]

In contrast, software crippling (6d no save hdr sources, 60d afma, 70d spot af) could just be lifted with a fw update. There's no further cost involved for Canon, other than fear of support costs ("My 6d can save hdr souce files, please help me!") and less upselling to the nextest and bestest model.

+1. The very definition of crippled product is when the hardware's there but they've decided to rem-out the software that allows it to be used to its potential.
Kinda like the original 7D and its end of life firmware upgrade that finally un-crippled its buffer abilities.

But back to the main topic... Nikon sure doesn't seem like they've crippled the d7200's image quality vs, well, the chronically crippled images from Canon that firmware aint ever gonna fix.

D7200 achievements need repeating:

• 13.8 stops of DR at base,
• superior color discrimination,
• better hi ISO performance.
  

That's the imaging trifecta!

Ok, so the Intel Core i7 5300 ($400) vs the 4700 ($250) "cripples" the lower-tier model with lower L3 cache. Other models "cripple" lower tier ones by not allowing you to overclock them. The LX100 and A6000 don't have headphone jacks or wide DR picture profiles (simple software, right?) and they come with lower bit rates and crappier compression than the GH4 and A7S/FS700. The D7200 removes top LCD screen features from the D7100 and doesn't have an AF-ON button like the D300, D700 and D810. Are those called crippling or product differentiation?

If I owned a D7100, as many people do on the Nikonrumors page where the D7200 was announced, I wouldn't upgrade to the D7200 simply because of IQ. Give me my top LCD display and white balance information back! Crippled, my ***. Many Nikonians complained the the D7200 was just what the D7100 should have been (minus the screen), as they did about the D610 vs D600.

The grass is always greener where you don't live.

 

[Marsu42]

The grass is always greener where you don't live.

It is? Who thinks so (I certainly don't)? The issue was someone writing that there is no withholding of features, never, ever, nowhere, that could possibly qualify as as "crippling", and I disagree. This certainly doesn't stop with Canon products, btw:

I wish I could ban anyone who uses the term "cripple" for any camera manufacturer or feature. It is astoundingly ignorant. Every product offers a set of features that rise or improve as you spend more. And, every feature has a cost to it.

Btw, listen up, all Canon fanbois what Rock Kennwell writes on Canon (7d2) vs Nikon, no matter the sensor. Do we love him now again ? ... http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d7200.htm

If you're comparing to Canon, the 7D Mark II is a completely revolutionary camera years ahead of any Nikon DX camera. If you aren't already invested in the Nikon system, I greatly prefer the 7D Mk II, which is almost twice as fast for sports and way smarter than the D7200 could ever be. It costs 40% more, but it's twice as good.

 

[Aglet]

Ok, so the Intel Core i7 5300 ($400) vs the 4700 ($250) "cripples" the lower-tier model with lower L3 cache.

is the whole cache on the die but not being accessed, then it's crippled
if the cache is just plain smaller then it's a differentiated product

The LX100 and A6000 don't have headphone jacks

real hardware differentiation..

..wide DR picture profiles (simple software, right?)

this is software, crippled, unless there's not enough RAM

and they come with lower bit rates and crappier compression than the GH4 and A7S/FS700.

that could be hardware based depending on the processor used for price purposes, if not, then crippled

The D7200 removes top LCD screen features from the D7100...

has a pretty big top display, what's missing exactly?

and doesn't have an AF-ON button like the D300, D700 and D810.

does it have a programmable function button that can be assigned that purpose? If so, then not necessarily crippled, just somewhat inconvenienced
Looks to me like you could program the AE-L/AF-L button the way you like.

If I owned a D7100, as many people do on the Nikonrumors page where the D7200 was announced, I wouldn't upgrade to the D7200 simply because of IQ. Give me my top LCD display and white balance information back!

Really?!? the IQ is going to be noticeably better. Again, what's missing from the display and how often do you have to muck around with WB?!? I rarely need to touch that and when I do It's no big deal to menu it if needed. Shoot raw?

Crippled, my ***. Many Nikonians complained the the D7200 was just what the D7100 should have been (minus the screen), as they did about the D610 vs D600.

well, they're certainly entitled to vent their frustrations too.
I don't have a d7x00 because I find the ergonomics, like the d6x0, sucks. I don't hear me complaining about it too much tho. For me, d5x00 and d800s fit just fine.
If you want really horrible ergonomics, try a Canon G10/11/12.

I certainly wasn't complaining that the D810 is what the d800 should have been. The d800 was a massive leap ahead for my shooting vs anything I had from Canon. Now the 810's tweaked and added a lot of features to make it even better. Well, except the ergo's, I prefer the 800 body's grip over the 810's; the 810 needs me to hold it with my thumb.

The grass is always greener where you don't live.

my grass is pretty darn green right now.
and if the d7200's ergos have improved, then maybe downright verdent!

 

[joejohnbear]

In contrast, software crippling (6d no save hdr sources, 60d afma, 70d spot af) could just be lifted with a fw update. There's no further cost involved for Canon, other than fear of support costs ("My 6d can save hdr souce files, please help me!") and less upselling to the nextest and bestest model.

+1. The very definition of crippled product is when the hardware's there but they've decided to rem-out the software that allows it to be used to its potential.
Kinda like the original 7D and its end of life firmware upgrade that finally un-crippled its buffer abilities.

But back to the main topic... Nikon sure doesn't seem like they've crippled the d7200's image quality vs, well, the chronically crippled images from Canon that firmware aint ever gonna fix.

D7200 achievements need repeating:

• 13.8 stops of DR at base,
• superior color discrimination,
• better hi ISO performance.
  

That's the imaging trifecta!

The new top LCD "simplifies" things and removes items like white balance, etc. That's a step backwards. Arbitrary definition of crippled vs. product differentiation being hardware vs. software from a manufacturer standpoint, but whatever. The camranger is $300 but the only difference is software from the $30 tplink router it's installed on. Is the tp-link crippled? Sheesh. Why is my gripe with the ae/af button all the way on the left side instead of the af on button in the right position an "inconvenience" while your other features are "crippled"? Completely arbitrary based on YOUR needs. Over and out, signing off.

 

[Marsu42]

The new top LCD "simplifies" things and removes items like white balance, etc. That's a step backwards.

Learning from Canon is learning to succeed - that's exactly what they do, for example on the 6d ... the d7200 might be Nikon's 6d, i.e. superior iq with the manufacturer trying not to cannibalize the more expensive cameras because the minor model is "good enough".

 

[Orangutan]

Learning from Canon is learning to succeed...the d7200 might be Nikon's 6d, i.e. superior iq with the manufacturer trying not to cannibalize the more expensive cameras

I realize that was ironic humor, but maybe this is what Nikon needs to be more financially successful. With a bit more cash they can improve the non-sensor elements of the Nikon system so they can compete with Canon.

Competition is good for consumers...until it forces a competitor out of business.

 

[pdirestajr]

I still have a hard time seeing any significant differences from any of these new cameras when I compare the results I STILL get from my 7D and 5DII. The advances are really so minor.

 

[privatebydesign]

I still have a hard time seeing any significant differences from any of these new cameras when I compare the results I STILL get from my 7D and 5DII. The advances are really so minor.

'Ain't that the truth!

For most people most of the time any camera from the last five to seven years has the IQ to do anything they want.

Meanwhile the Canon lens division is clearly on some kind of Happy Dance medication with an amazing array of across the board killer lenses from the EF-S 24 pancake to the 100L Macro, the 16-35 f4 IS to the 11-24, the 200-400 with 1.4 to the 100-400 MkII, an absolutely amazing collection of world class optics!

I had been worried that too much lens development had been going into the cine line, I was wrong. With the current lenses, and probable future upgrades (the 45 and 90 TS-E's) I can't see me ever changing brand, but then I probably only have ten or so years of productive professional work ahead of me at which point I can retire with that same kit and take any image my heart desires. No other system offers me that, and don't for one second suggest a Sony and metabones is any kind of solution for most shooting situations.