Dynamic Range - Try it for yourself, conclude for yourself: 5D III vs. A7r

[V8Beast]

The Sony sensors are clearly better than the Canon sensors right now. Sitting around and making excuses for Canon isn't going to help encourage Canon to get their S___ together and give us some new sensors.

The best way to do this is to stop buying Canon gear. That's why I can't fathom why people who state that low ISO DR is the most important factor in their photographic needs prefer complaining on forums instead of putting their money where there mouths are by switching to SoNikon.

If landscape photography represented a lucrative chunk of the DSLR market, you could bet your sweet hiney that Canon would focus more effort on improving low ISO DR, whether it's through improving its own sensors or buying Exmors from Sony.

Just like refuting the low ISO DR superiority of SoNikon over Canon is ludicrous, so is hoping that complaining incessantly on a forum will somehow inspire Canon to improve its low ISO DR.

Talk is cheap. If anyone wants to hit Canon where it hurts, give another company your money. Then Canon will care.

 

[DarioVE]

some people take this DR thing like a pride offence.
It's only one of the latest issue to improve to reach the recent competitor.
Many years ago someone thought the af was for dumbs, the in camera exposimetre too ...
For those who think more DR it is non necessary, well good for them, probably they have better tecnique while shooting, better lighting, better pp abilities, tripod acessories etc.
From a manifacturer stand point i think it is better to provide an easier camera/instrument so the mediocre people (like probably me) can achieve better results with less effort, so you sell more camera.
Luckily it seems more dr does'nt have any downside, so why can't we be all happy?

The way jrista introduced this particular thread is not trolling, is informative for me once, gratefully, he will provide the raw file of a typical landscape in hdr lighting circumstances.


P.s. i'm not english native speaking i apologize for any mistake, in any case i don't intend to offend anyone.

 

[jrista]

My 8-bit screen, your 8-bit screen, most people's screens, cannot display the entire range of information found within the RAW, so I had to push the shadows up to make it fit.

In case anyone else is scratching their head over the 8 bit thing when your screen reports 24 bits, it's 8 bits for each of red, green, blue. Which does sort of make me wonder why they haven't gone to 30 bits, you'd get 10 bits for each color in a 32 bit word.

It's 24-bits total, but that is all channels added. The dynamic range is limited per-channel...so, since it's 8-bit per channel, dynamic range of a screen is 8 stops.

 

[jrista]

Talk is cheap. If anyone wants to hit Canon where it hurts, give another company your money. Then Canon will care.

Absolutely. I wouldn't recommend buying the A7r as a GP camera, but as a landscape camera it's pretty awesome. You could add it to your kit, use your existing Canon lenses (or Zeiss or Sigma EF lenses), and make that "pocketbook vote" without breaking the bank.

 

[V8Beast]

Absolutely. I wouldn't recommend buying the A7r as a GP camera, but as a landscape camera it's pretty awesome. You could add it to your kit, use your existing Canon lenses (or Zeiss or Sigma EF lenses), and make that "pocketbook vote" without breaking the bank.

Not to put too much pressure on you, but I'm looking forward to your A7R landscapes. Not because I'm looking to buy one, but because I've been debating taking the family out to Colorado for vacation for quite some time. Your photographic efforts could very much help the Colorado tourism industry ;D If it weren't so flat and boring here in Texas, I might have more of an interest in shooting landscapes

 

[Simba]

+1. I really appropriate jrista spending time to explain a lot of technical details. His tone is calm and his explanation is informative. Choosing a brand is personal, but knowledge is universal. Keep it up! Thanks.

some people take this DR thing like a pride offence.
It's only one of the latest issue to improve to reach the recent competitor.
Many years ago someone thought the af was for dumbs, the in camera exposimetre too ...
For those who think more DR it is non necessary, well good for them, probably they have better tecnique while shooting, better lighting, better pp abilities, tripod acessories etc.
From a manifacturer stand point i think it is better to provide an easier camera/instrument so the mediocre people (like probably me) can achieve better results with less effort, so you sell more camera.
Luckily it seems more dr does'nt have any downside, so why can't we be all happy?

The way jrista introduced this particular thread is not trolling, is informative for me once, gratefully, he will provide the raw file of a typical landscape in hdr lighting circumstances.


P.s. i'm not english native speaking i apologize for any mistake, in any case i don't intend to offend anyone.

 

[turtle]

To the naysayers, just stop kidding yourselves. I own tonnes of Canon gear and the additional dynamic range with Sony sensors is huge and hugely useful. To those who say its not useful, you've evidently never shot night scenes, where point light sources are mixed with deep shadow, or a long list of other scenarios that would bring out terrible banding with the Canons.

This 'those who think DR is important obviously think they are better than all the Canon pros' is nonsensical, because it assumes that those same Canon pros would not care for more DR. How on earth would you know? I sell prints for thousands of dollars and I shoot Canon.... and I think Canon needs to make a big leap in DR or I will sell up and move on. Is that clear enough?

 

[drjlo]

First impressions, the 5D III takes warmer images, with more vibrancy than the A7r. However, I feel the A7r colors are more realistic (this is when using them on Camera Neutral, and importing with Camera Neutral in LR).

That's a little unexpected, as others (including myself) feel A7r colors are a bit further from neutral than Canon. I personally found both deviate from what eyes perceive but Canon closer than Sony A7r, coming in from almost opposite directions.

 

[skoobey]

As an enthusiast you want LESS dynamic range. That gives you great contrast out of the camera.

DR is great for pulling detail out of shadow and highlights, but it really is mostly useful when trying to correct the exposure, or when you're actually retouching the image.

 

[Sporgon]

Put the other way around: If people spent this kind of energy in making images instead of Grandstanding just think of how many wonderful things there would be to share with the world. Gods! People might actually perk up, set down their TV remotes, stop their Twittering, and pay attention to you!! You might actually become famous, rich and recognized during your lifetime for outstanding work!!!

I see you're point, and I am in complete agreement with you, but personally sometimes I have to take a step back and remind myself that Canon Rumors is a "gear forum." Hence, most the talk revolves around gear.

There are plenty of other photography forums that I visit where 99% of the focus is on imaging technique and sharing beautiful photography. Gear is rarely discussed. When I get sick of the DR debates, I just visit those sites at marvel at the wonderful images talented photogs produce with all types of different gear.

Don't you think the irony of this is that many of the images shown on CR match or even surpass those on other sites ?

The DR debate can only centre around unrealistic, chronically underexposed images, and the onslaught of missionaries using CR as a platform for their zeal in unrelenting.

To the OP: let's see you capture a scene that includes the actual sun disc recorded in the EV range and lift shadows from a shaded area with the A7r. This is the only situation in which my Canon gear cannot cope.

Of course you will fail. I know because I have already tried with a D800. That's why myself and hundreds, nay thousands of 'landscape' orientated photographers are still using Canon.

 

[darrellrhodesmiller]

i have both, and i choose the right tool for the right job..

i REALLY love the a7r for its size.. it doesnt draw much attention.. and it works great with canon lens with the metabones adapter. i use focus peaking as much as the autofocus.. both work just fine. its not a fast camera.. its not meant to be. but its image quality (sharpness) and color are better than the 5dmk3 even with the same lens. Battery life is TERRIBLE.. it takes a pocket full of batteries if you are going to go on a day trip somewhere. Luckily the batteries are cheap. Interface is also a little rough around the edges.. but for a v1 camera is really remarkable.

the 5dmk3 is a far more well rerounded camera. It focuses fast, battery lasts forever, and the silent mode is great for weddings. When i dont know exactly what i'm getting into i take this camera and know i'll come home with some good clean shots.

Sony is pushing hard.. i hope it pushes canon to creating some remarkable stuff. time will tell i guess.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I'm about to get a little philosophical here:

Now, before any ranting is going to ensue - I'm not disputing DR advantage of Exmor (I've never did actually), but...

We are here evaluating cameras with as 12 EV (6D and 5D3) vs 14+ EV (Exmor) on monitors right? Is there any magical, yet affordable monitor with as wide as 15 EV of DR? And even more, is there any mythical photopaper, capable of using that DR?

Just food for thought, I think many here from both sides of the DR camp went over their heads, comparing numbers, histograms, ratios and forgot about the vastly severe limitation of the displaying devices or printing media...

With various tonal compression and local contrast enhancements you can often make good use of the extra stops even on current displays. By 2018 they expects lots of HDR displays to start shipping though and by 2020 they hope to ship nothing but 4k+, ultra wide gamut, HDR monitors (with 2018 target if possible).

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Hi Jon: Thanks for tackling this polarizing topic. Canon makes a great system, and it will be obviously greater still of they used exmors in some regards...

But sensors apart.... as a novice not being able to be as articulate as you guys, I have always felt, that where Canon got beat on DR, was not the sensor, rather the footprint and subsequent processing of the raw file. Whatever algorithms Canon uses to build the RAW file and construct shadow (i.e. half missing) data; needs a re-haul.

This is quite obvious in banding... this is a digital artifact, not an analog output issue form the sensor...

What say you?

No, that is not how it works. Although the sensor sensor part of the Canon sensor is good, so you are correct in the the original analog level of capture is good at the most basic level. But it's not the RAW processing or formation that goes badly (and if it was just that, they'd have fixed it years ago). It's the conversion of the analog sensor's capture into digital where it goes bad. The use off chip analog to digital conversion and oh they don't use digital CDS on the sensor either though and don't this and that and it leads to banding and read noise.

 

[V8Beast]

Don't you think the irony of this is that many of the images shown on CR match or even surpass those on other sites ?

I try not to hang out on sites with mediocre photography I like perusing the sites and portfolios of others that make me strive to become a better photographer

Surely, there are many talented photographers on this forum. However, there are many people that run their mouths yet never post sample images. Gotta wonder how much their gear is really holding them back.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Also, there seems to be extreme approach from those using Exmor - underexposing generally while maintaining highlights, then pushing shadows. But with e.g. landscape, you can expose for shadows and control highlights with filters (as I do) to tame the dreaded Canon shadows (which I'm yet to see, pushed my 6D files up to 2 stops, with no banding and only little noise, which does not impede the general quality).

You can't control the highlights in most scenes with filters. Only simple scenes where you have bright up top, horizon and then dark below.

You can use multiple shots at times, although you are forced to use tripod at all times then. Also, if the scene has movement then forget it. Even light breezes can make havoc often enough.

I see the problem in the DR debate being one camp strongly advocating (quite narrow in my opinion) way of pushing shadows (and everything else is blasphemy/wrong/you-name-it),

FOr the most part I don't think the wanting more DR side is like that. I've said thousands of times that there are infinite number of shots you can take where the DR won't even matter at all with where even Canon is at today.

while the opposing extreme opinios is acting like there is no difference whatsoever. The truth will lie (as usual) in the middle.

Also what I find rather ironical is your A7r evaluation, that while the sensor is superior, ergonomics, AF, viewfinder and need for an adapter/lack of broad lineup of lenses have also to be considered and are clearly not satisfactory for you. I guess it's always a compromise, there is no ideal system and all that matters is, where you put your priorities.

Yes, which is also why it would be so nice if Canon just went to a new fab and improved their sensors.

In my case, I gladly give up 2 EV of DR for all the other things that makes my photography easier (OVF, supreme ergonomics and intuitive UI, great lenses etc.). But that's for everyone to decide, where their priorities lie.

overall I'd agree too. I couldn't simply give up Canon bodies and use nothing but an A7R+A7S.
Going all Nikon (with A7S for video) for stills would be a lot more feasible. Although due to UI and lenses I'd certainly rather stay with Canon if possible.

(And there will always be constant complainers, unhappy with camera encompassing 30 EV of DR, lightspeed AF covering whole sensor and magical unicors carrying their 14-600/1.4 lens around )

to be fair though, low ISO DR has stagnated for a long time now, it's been 7 years, andif the 5D4 doesn't improve it then you are talking more than a decade, that is a lot of shooting opportunities over more than a decade!

 

[Dantana]

Jrista,

Thanks for comparing things side to side in a visible way. Even in an admittedly unrealistic subject, the comparison of DR is there.

The thing for me is, and maybe this is just because I'm getting older, the whole thing seems a bit silly.

Yes the Sony sensors have more DR. That's great. having more latitude and useful information has always been a good thing, going way back into my film days. I'm never going to turn down more range.

So, I suppose if I was going to buy a new camera or a whole new system right now, this instant, I would look at Sony/Nikon gear. But I'm not looking for a new camera, and certainly not looking for a new system. I have had my 6D for a year now and I plan on having it for quite a few more.

Canon will come out with a sensor with more DR. It's inevitable. Nikon/Sony will improve their high ISO performance. It's also inevitable. But what is also inevitable is that at some point those numbers won't be enough, and people will be asking for better High ISO performance or more DR. The status quo will never be enough for some people. I can't afford to be chasing one statistic after another, perhaps others can.

The part of this that feels silly to me is that we have tools with capabilities today that I never dreamed possible. If you can't get a good image out of them, you're doing something wrong. Picking a subject, and the time to shoot, and the day to shoot and the time of year to shoot, and judging the weather, and an infinite amount of other decisions we make are all part of photography.

So again, thanks for the images. It's nice to see them. I am also looking forward to seeing some landscape shots from you taken with the Sony not because of the sensor, but because I like the landscapes that I have seen on your site. When I look at them, I'm not thinking about noise and banding and... They are just nice images.

 

[emko]

i am i the only one here who does not give a crap about camera brand? i just got a A7r just for the high MP and DR that the 5d3 lacks. You guys should grow up and not be defending/loyal to a brand get what ever camera works for you. If the DR sucks on Canon just sell it and buy the camera that is better for you this is the only way and if Canon does improve in these areas get a Canon who cares just stop defending the brand when its clear the Canon sensor is not as good as other brands this may not be the case for your current use but many people see what the other sensor can do and will and want to use that capability.

 

[Aglet]

To the OP: let's see you capture a scene that includes the actual sun disc recorded in the EV range and lift shadows from a shaded area with the A7r. This is the only situation in which my Canon gear cannot cope.

Of course you will fail. I know because I have already tried with a D800. That's why myself and hundreds, nay thousands of 'landscape' orientated photographers are still using Canon.

you mean like this one?..
www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8105.msg161888#msg161888
good luck using a Digic 4 or 5 Canon for a shot like the first one, you would not be able to re-tone the image to look like it does to the eye.
How does a Canon user cope with such a shot? Cry and go home? Spend many hours in post, trying to tame the stripes and fix the muddy dark tones to have some sort of semi-realistic texture? HAHAHA! Bracket?!? ;D

the last 2 in that post could even be done with a 7D, not that I'd chose one if I had an ABC alternative available.

 

[Bennymiata]

It surprises me that no-one has tried to put a Sony sensor into a Canon 5d3 and make the perfect camera.
Swapping engines and transmissions in cars is not uncommon, so why not swap sensors in cameras?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

It surprises me that no-one has tried to put a Sony sensor into a Canon 5d3 and make the perfect camera.
Swapping engines and transmissions in cars is not uncommon, so why not swap sensors in cameras?

This is much harder.